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Football Super 16 For 2023 Onwards

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Was in Ennis yesterday for match v Derry and can only wonder at how coaches & managers have turned Gaelic Football into such a mess at one stage there was a mass of bodies probably 24 or 25 banked between the two 50 Yard marks all
Clare players were inside this space bar the Clare Goalie who was positioned on the 50 yard mark, passes and running around making probably up to a hundred passes eventually they manufactured a point.

Derry were far more proficient at the short game could squeeze a odd pass in and score David Tubridy who is 35 and has the honour of scoring most in league overall was brought in but had to hunt back and at one time was chasing back on his own full back line like playing Messi left back in Soccer.

Gaelic Football can be a great spectacle as a sport under age games devoid of tactics are great to watch Watching Mayo & Kerry last night they appeared to be trying to play the right way.

Colm has done a marvellous job in Clare but somehow our kick out strategy went astray and we conceded two soft enough goals will find it hard enough to get back into contention for promotion

clooney (Clare) - Posts: 891 - 28/02/2022 13:00:02    2402950

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A lot unhappy with this but I think some of the criticism is unfair.

Lower division counties aren't completely cut off, they can qualify through the provincials still.

League matters more if anything, getting up to division 2 gives teams 2 chances at qualifying for the super 8s.

There is some incentive to do well in the Provincials still for top teams as the All Ireland is seeded based on the Provincials.

Lower level teams need more meaningful games to develop and this system does increase that with every team guaranteed 11 games.

I think it's different enough from either the super 8s or the Tommy Murphy cup system to not be doomed to fail but time will tell.

It's far from perfect but it's not an awful stab at trying to find a solution to a very difficult problem and most importantly the players are very behind it.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 28/02/2022 13:58:31    2402981

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Replying To Whammo86:  "A lot unhappy with this but I think some of the criticism is unfair.

Lower division counties aren't completely cut off, they can qualify through the provincials still.

League matters more if anything, getting up to division 2 gives teams 2 chances at qualifying for the super 8s.

There is some incentive to do well in the Provincials still for top teams as the All Ireland is seeded based on the Provincials.

Lower level teams need more meaningful games to develop and this system does increase that with every team guaranteed 11 games.

I think it's different enough from either the super 8s or the Tommy Murphy cup system to not be doomed to fail but time will tell.

It's far from perfect but it's not an awful stab at trying to find a solution to a very difficult problem and most importantly the players are very behind it."
Yeah, it ticks a lot of boxes. They have a lot of people to keep happy and on board.
There is a strong obligation from the format that the provincial championships are seeded based on league form. It's a wrinkle that will have to be ironed out.
The preliminary quarter-final seems unnecessary but sure look let's see how it goes in practice. 1st place has the advantage of direct access to the quarter-finals. 2nd place secures home advantage for the preliminary quarter-final. They've tried to offer an incentive as best they can.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 28/02/2022 18:44:35    2403098

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They should go down the Kerry route. The Kerry championship is unique and it works.

Realistically there are about 12 counties not 16 who can compete at the top.

Throw the top 12, and 4 provincial representative teams in to senior. 16 in intermediate. 8 in junior. 1 up, 1 down

Imagine a Leinster team with the whole province to pick from apart from Dublin, Kildare and Meath/Offaly every other year. Munster would be Limerick, Tipp, Waterford and Clare/Cork.

It'd make the intermediate a real championship too.

No league gimmicks either.

skirge7 (UK) - Posts: 251 - 04/03/2022 07:52:03    2403726

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Replying To skirge7:  "They should go down the Kerry route. The Kerry championship is unique and it works.

Realistically there are about 12 counties not 16 who can compete at the top.

Throw the top 12, and 4 provincial representative teams in to senior. 16 in intermediate. 8 in junior. 1 up, 1 down

Imagine a Leinster team with the whole province to pick from apart from Dublin, Kildare and Meath/Offaly every other year. Munster would be Limerick, Tipp, Waterford and Clare/Cork.

It'd make the intermediate a real championship too.

No league gimmicks either."
Let's give the split of 16 a chance. It's seems a fair split to start with. The Super 8s was seen as too exclusive. The Tommy Murphy Cup of 8 teams was seen as exclusionary for the teams involved!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 04/03/2022 13:08:19    2403791

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Let's give the split of 16 a chance. It's seems a fair split to start with. The Super 8s was seen as too exclusive. The Tommy Murphy Cup of 8 teams was seen as exclusionary for the teams involved!"
They should have swapped the league with the provincials in the calendar.

Playing all the good close matches by the end of March is still a terrible idea however you dress it up.

Also, the top 4-6 counties are a long way ahead of teams 10-16.

Kerry will destroy Cork or Clare in Munster - playing them again in a round robin won't make change that.

It will eventually have to be swap the league and provincials or go for 3 groups (10,10,12)

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1126 - 05/03/2022 14:13:07    2403882

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "They should have swapped the league with the provincials in the calendar.

Playing all the good close matches by the end of March is still a terrible idea however you dress it up.

Also, the top 4-6 counties are a long way ahead of teams 10-16.

Kerry will destroy Cork or Clare in Munster - playing them again in a round robin won't make change that.

It will eventually have to be swap the league and provincials or go for 3 groups (10,10,12)"
I think they've taken the right approach in keeping the calendar as they have. The provincial winners are to be top seeds and it is better that top seeding is on offer immediately prior to the group stage. Provincial winners are to play their first match at home.
Clare are going well in Division 2. Cork in a derby match are dangerous. On current form, it'll be an interesting challenge for either if they had to beat Kerry to make the All-Ireland series.
There's going to an interesting dynamic of some Division 1 teams already having an eye on the All-Ireland series and a lower league seeded team turning them over due to their hunger to qualify for the All-Ireland series. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out for real. Don't knock it until they have trialled it!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 06/03/2022 10:21:09    2404032

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I think they've taken the right approach in keeping the calendar as they have. The provincial winners are to be top seeds and it is better that top seeding is on offer immediately prior to the group stage. Provincial winners are to play their first match at home.
Clare are going well in Division 2. Cork in a derby match are dangerous. On current form, it'll be an interesting challenge for either if they had to beat Kerry to make the All-Ireland series.
There's going to an interesting dynamic of some Division 1 teams already having an eye on the All-Ireland series and a lower league seeded team turning them over due to their hunger to qualify for the All-Ireland series. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out for real. Don't knock it until they have trialled it!"
If I have one problem with the system it's that after the league many teams don't know if they've done enough to qualify and it's then somewhat out of their hands to do more.

Like say you've Down or Monaghan have a good division 2 but still finish 4 or 5th. Win a tricky Ulster championship fixture but lose a tough semifinal against a Tyrone. They've probably had a campaign more deserving of a Sam Maguire place than a team coming through the weaker half of a Munster championship draw and a worse NFL campaign.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 06/03/2022 15:21:53    2404066

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Replying To legendzxix:  "If the Tailteann Cup doesn't work out, counties can bring a motion to scrap it. UEFA have the Europa League. The rugby equivalent have a Challenge Cup. I would just ask people to give the Tailteann Cup an opportunity.
The important point is that a Division 3 or 4 county who win the Tailteann Cup will qualify for the Super 16 in the following year."
Did i hear they were going to play the T Cup final before a hurling semi final? Could be wrong but what's the point in that?

I would class myself as a GAA die hard. I would watch the T Cup final on TV. However i know about plenty would wouldn't. I think you can market it as much as you want but its a B competition, if you aren't from the finalists county not many will have an interest. The earlier rounds of the T Cup will have very little interest IMO. I'm not been negative but not many will have an interest in 2 Div 4 teams playing each other.

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 07/03/2022 14:00:52    2404275

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Replying To The_Fridge:  "Did i hear they were going to play the T Cup final before a hurling semi final? Could be wrong but what's the point in that?

I would class myself as a GAA die hard. I would watch the T Cup final on TV. However i know about plenty would wouldn't. I think you can market it as much as you want but its a B competition, if you aren't from the finalists county not many will have an interest. The earlier rounds of the T Cup will have very little interest IMO. I'm not been negative but not many will have an interest in 2 Div 4 teams playing each other."
Because they don't care about it. Won't be able to do it next year but TC will just get ignored as well. They put Joe McDonagh final on TV but still spend most of their time talking about the Liam McCarthy. I think the jury is out on a second tier. Tackling the funding and runaway intercounty train should have come first. We already have a tiered league and it hasn't brought counties on. Funding and solid development plans will.

Best period for football was the noughties but then GAA overcompensated for Dublin's decline (if you can call it that) and allowed other top counties to get too far ahead in terms of resources. It has turned into the soccer.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 07/03/2022 14:15:47    2404283

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Replying To Whammo86:  "If I have one problem with the system it's that after the league many teams don't know if they've done enough to qualify and it's then somewhat out of their hands to do more.

Like say you've Down or Monaghan have a good division 2 but still finish 4 or 5th. Win a tricky Ulster championship fixture but lose a tough semifinal against a Tyrone. They've probably had a campaign more deserving of a Sam Maguire place than a team coming through the weaker half of a Munster championship draw and a worse NFL campaign."
With the strength of Ulster, one would expect Ulster counties to be taking a big share of the 8 league places on offer.
With the provincial finalists qualifying for the Top 16, I presume the Tailteann Cup will be starting soon after the provincial semi-finals.
Ironically Ulster counties have had the bigger hunger to retain the provincial championships though it is more difficult for them to qualify for a provincial final.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 07/03/2022 18:58:45    2404354

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Because they don't care about it. Won't be able to do it next year but TC will just get ignored as well. They put Joe McDonagh final on TV but still spend most of their time talking about the Liam McCarthy. I think the jury is out on a second tier. Tackling the funding and runaway intercounty train should have come first. We already have a tiered league and it hasn't brought counties on. Funding and solid development plans will.

Best period for football was the noughties but then GAA overcompensated for Dublin's decline (if you can call it that) and allowed other top counties to get too far ahead in terms of resources. It has turned into the soccer."
To be fair I think it's fine that the Tailteann cup won't have lots of interest.

Players from weaker counties are used to that 30 seconds of a report of their games.

It's an opportunity to give them more competitive games at the business end of the season and with something real to play for.

I'd be pretty happy to go watch Antrim through a Tailteann cup campaign where I actually don't go to league games.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 08/03/2022 09:57:55    2404390

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Replying To legendzxix:  "With the strength of Ulster, one would expect Ulster counties to be taking a big share of the 8 league places on offer.
With the provincial finalists qualifying for the Top 16, I presume the Tailteann Cup will be starting soon after the provincial semi-finals.
Ironically Ulster counties have had the bigger hunger to retain the provincial championships though it is more difficult for them to qualify for a provincial final."
Yeah look, that's a fair point. You can't have your cake and eat it.

I do think those sort of problems will lead to tweaks over time though and maybe this system is the stepping stone to something more robust.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 08/03/2022 09:59:57    2404391

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It's always the same, folk from counties that will never be near the Teacup telling those of us from Teacup counties how good it is for us, sure you can qualify via the provincials they tell us. This patting on the head needs to stop and a meaningful change in the competition needs to be brought in. The qualifiers used to be very fair in that regard, but of course there could be a Teacup county managing to creep into the super 8s so the head boyos didn't want that happening either, bad for the tv deals.

Leitrim_12 (USA) - Posts: 207 - 08/03/2022 11:09:16    2404409

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Replying To kentuckytucky:  "It's always the same, folk from counties that will never be near the Teacup telling those of us from Teacup counties how good it is for us, sure you can qualify via the provincials they tell us. This patting on the head needs to stop and a meaningful change in the competition needs to be brought in. The qualifiers used to be very fair in that regard, but of course there could be a Teacup county managing to creep into the super 8s so the head boyos didn't want that happening either, bad for the tv deals."
As someone from a "teacup" county as you'd put it, I do think that the change has been driven by the players and they want more games to be able to retain players more easily and steadily improve over time.

This format can be an opportunity for an ambitious but currently weaker county to play 6 championship games with the prize of a guaranteed 3 tier 1 championship games the following season.

My thoughts on second tiers is that they are never all that meaningful or exciting in their own right but they become meaningful as you can qualify for the higher grade through them. The higher grade competition is the priority and I think it's a significant improvement on what we had.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 08/03/2022 12:53:51    2404442

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When you see the success of junior/intermediate club all Ireland competition it makes you wonder why the same can't happen at I/C level.

Either way all counties get into race for Sam it's just that only counties that have earned it get a second chance.

One aspect that probably needs to be looked at is seeding of provincial championships. Potentially based on league position.

Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1835 - 08/03/2022 13:23:30    2404454

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Replying To Whammo86:  "To be fair I think it's fine that the Tailteann cup won't have lots of interest.

Players from weaker counties are used to that 30 seconds of a report of their games.

It's an opportunity to give them more competitive games at the business end of the season and with something real to play for.

I'd be pretty happy to go watch Antrim through a Tailteann cup campaign where I actually don't go to league games."
They already get 7 competitive games in the League. I think we'll see a lot of players go off to America rather than stick around for a second rate competition with little coverage.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 08/03/2022 13:25:11    2404455

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Replying To kentuckytucky:  "It's always the same, folk from counties that will never be near the Teacup telling those of us from Teacup counties how good it is for us, sure you can qualify via the provincials they tell us. This patting on the head needs to stop and a meaningful change in the competition needs to be brought in. The qualifiers used to be very fair in that regard, but of course there could be a Teacup county managing to creep into the super 8s so the head boyos didn't want that happening either, bad for the tv deals."
The qualifiers were good when we had the Div 1A/1B league format and when intercounty spending wasn't out of control. Now the GAA are bringing in a doomed Tier 2 competition rather than tackling the actual issues.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 08/03/2022 13:27:55    2404456

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Replying To Whammo86:  "As someone from a "teacup" county as you'd put it, I do think that the change has been driven by the players and they want more games to be able to retain players more easily and steadily improve over time.

This format can be an opportunity for an ambitious but currently weaker county to play 6 championship games with the prize of a guaranteed 3 tier 1 championship games the following season.

My thoughts on second tiers is that they are never all that meaningful or exciting in their own right but they become meaningful as you can qualify for the higher grade through them. The higher grade competition is the priority and I think it's a significant improvement on what we had."
Tiered competitions haven't brought on meaningful competition at the top level in hurling though. We've been here before with football with the b all ireland and the tm cup but they both faded away.

Leitrim_12 (USA) - Posts: 207 - 08/03/2022 13:35:19    2404457

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Replying To kentuckytucky:  "Tiered competitions haven't brought on meaningful competition at the top level in hurling though. We've been here before with football with the b all ireland and the tm cup but they both faded away."
I think the oul Munster, Leinster and All Ireland SHCs are pretty meaningful!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1438 - 08/03/2022 14:33:45    2404465

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