National Forum

That Tyrone/Armagh Row

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This debate fascinates me and as is the case with many aspects of the GAA it is not black and white.
I am inclined to lean towards the lenient school of thought i.e that it was handbags and that some of the cards and associated suspensions were/are un-necessary.
But what really interests me is that i hear many of the people who are calling this incident a minor/handbag type issue are the same people who were labelling the acts of the Mountbellew players as an assault.
I will challenge any one to justify a reason why the minor pushes that the referee got was remotely as bad,or carried as much risk of serious injury, as at least 10 of the interactions in the Armagh v Tyrone melee. For sure the officials have to be protected and what 2 of the Mountbellew players did was wrong and deserves some level of suspension. But should players not be protected also against physical abuse or are players "children of a lesser God". Do they not have families to go home to as well.
As I said at the start it is a fascinating debate and it difficult for the GAA to legislate. But pragmatism and fairness should apply and hopefully they will , with fair and reasonable punishment where it is justified ( in the handling of both the aftermath of the Armagh / Tyrone game and in the Mountbellew disciplinary scenario)

anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 843 - 08/02/2022 10:17:41    2399227

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "You'll achieve as much as you will punching a lad in the face, but without the 6 month suspension and the risk of getting sued for breaking someone's jaw."
How will you achieve as much pushing and shoving? What did they achieve..they embarrassed themselves and a few got sent off. That's all they achieved.

wishfulthinkin (Cavan) - Posts: 1687 - 08/02/2022 10:34:21    2399236

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Replying To essmac:  "OK, so the rule book is so detailed that it differentiates between melees and nasty melees?! You're just scraping the barrel here, to justify your own bias. Also, a black card is issued when there is a drag down that prevented a possible scoring opportunity. Doubtful if there were too many scoring opportunities in such melees ..."
Please show where the rulebook states "scoring opportunity" in relation to a black card.

Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 08/02/2022 10:52:32    2399247

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I was at the match - I was close to the incident and it looked bad for 2 minutes.
But was it a 'melee'
There were 3 players thrown to the ground -
As an Armagh person obviously I'm biased but only one player should have seen red - peter Harte as he ran towards it - therefore contributing to it
What was annoying was the poor analysis by rte - that was shocking and of course we had 2 angels in the studio-

cuchulainn35 (Armagh) - Posts: 1676 - 08/02/2022 10:54:55    2399249

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Choke holds are extremely dangerous and can be lethal. They've absolutely no place in our game. They cut off air supply if they compress the trachea, they cut off circulation to the brain if the neck arteries are compressed, and they can compress vital nerves in the neck, the carotid body, which can and do cause fatal heart irregularities. With players upper body strength now at all time highs in the game, applying such force to the neck is a brutal act. The fact that so many players deployed choke holds from behind at one time raises serious questions about how orchestrated this might be and certainly merits investigation. A choke hold in a melee like this is also designed to aggravate and to force a reaction from the person being held - not to calm a situation. Another term for a choke hold is strangulation. Throw the book at these lads. An absolute disgrace.

togoutlads (Galway) - Posts: 908 - 08/02/2022 11:34:49    2399269

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Replying To anotheralias:  "This debate fascinates me and as is the case with many aspects of the GAA it is not black and white.
I am inclined to lean towards the lenient school of thought i.e that it was handbags and that some of the cards and associated suspensions were/are un-necessary.
But what really interests me is that i hear many of the people who are calling this incident a minor/handbag type issue are the same people who were labelling the acts of the Mountbellew players as an assault.
I will challenge any one to justify a reason why the minor pushes that the referee got was remotely as bad,or carried as much risk of serious injury, as at least 10 of the interactions in the Armagh v Tyrone melee. For sure the officials have to be protected and what 2 of the Mountbellew players did was wrong and deserves some level of suspension. But should players not be protected also against physical abuse or are players "children of a lesser God". Do they not have families to go home to as well.
As I said at the start it is a fascinating debate and it difficult for the GAA to legislate. But pragmatism and fairness should apply and hopefully they will , with fair and reasonable punishment where it is justified ( in the handling of both the aftermath of the Armagh / Tyrone game and in the Mountbellew disciplinary scenario)"
Two very different things you are talking about. From what i saw on sunday night im guessing that most of the players who saw red was for 'contributing to a melee' My understanding of that rule is that if you get involved in a melee in any way you run the risk of getting a red card.
The suspensions in the Mountbellew/Moylough case arise from abuse of the referee. any form of verbal or physical abuse to a referee carries a suspension. so it is not the severity of the abuse alone. Also suspensions are minimum recommendations the committee in charge has the power to impose larger sanctions.
I would imagine the guys sent off on Sunday will get the minimum suspension. Probably just one game. I'm guessing that referees have been told that if a melee develops send a few off instead of the usual one or two from either side. Its probably a directive from croke park to clamp down on this. and fair play to Mr Goff he's not afraid to apply the rules to the letter of the law - as Johnny cooper well knows!!

indaknownow (Offaly) - Posts: 112 - 08/02/2022 12:20:39    2399287

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Replying To essmac:  "OK, so the rule book is so detailed that it differentiates between melees and nasty melees?! You're just scraping the barrel here, to justify your own bias. Also, a black card is issued when there is a drag down that prevented a possible scoring opportunity. Doubtful if there were too many scoring opportunities in such melees ..."
Essmac - I've no bias here. You're right the rule book doesn't differentiate between melees and nastier melees; though perhaps it should. According to the rule book there would have been about 20 lads sent off - nobody here would think that would have been the right course of action.

A blank card doesn't have to be a scoring opportunity - so perhaps the ref would have been better to throw out 5 blank cards for what were deliberate pull downs.

. . . and as for scoring opportunities in melees - that only happens in Coppers!

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 292 - 08/02/2022 12:25:18    2399288

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Replying To togoutlads:  "Choke holds are extremely dangerous and can be lethal. They've absolutely no place in our game. They cut off air supply if they compress the trachea, they cut off circulation to the brain if the neck arteries are compressed, and they can compress vital nerves in the neck, the carotid body, which can and do cause fatal heart irregularities. With players upper body strength now at all time highs in the game, applying such force to the neck is a brutal act. The fact that so many players deployed choke holds from behind at one time raises serious questions about how orchestrated this might be and certainly merits investigation. A choke hold in a melee like this is also designed to aggravate and to force a reaction from the person being held - not to calm a situation. Another term for a choke hold is strangulation. Throw the book at these lads. An absolute disgrace."
Get a grip of yourself saying it was orchestrated, words like strangulation and causing fatal heart irregularities. Your not wise.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2017 - 08/02/2022 12:31:56    2399290

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I've seen worse but I had no problem with cards being handed out..I was surprised that more Armagh players weren't picked out..maybe now inter county players will think twice about being the 3rd or 4th person in a row..what I'd like to know is did anyone in the terrace make an effort to do something stupid?if I'm right 2 players were stuck in one another actually over the bloody wall..it has happened at club games where supporters do get involved..a lot of talking points after only 2 weeks..wonder how rest of year will go??also the fact that mcgeary was sent off for 2nd week,does it mean an extra suspension..

CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 2227 - 08/02/2022 13:26:30    2399301

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What seems to lost on a few folks is that the attention in this is coming from the fact the ref sent off 5 players and not the melee itself. If ref had done what most refs do and dish our a few yellows it wouldn't have got the same attention. With so many sending offs of course rte are going to talk about it.

What's maybe also lost is that pretty much nobody wants to see that kind of messing. Players though up to now have been sure that if they don't raise their hand then they'll be grand and that can lead to events like Sunday. What Gough has done and I think this is a great thing is put the requisite doubt in the players head. Does anyone think there will be all out melee in the next match he refs or any after that. Irrespective if players get off work will managers not be at pains to make sure players don't get involved in messing like this and that only serves the game well in longer term.

Ulsterchamps_32 (Donegal) - Posts: 697 - 08/02/2022 13:33:10    2399302

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Replying To oneoff:  "Glossed over like the way you and other Ulster posters do with anything like this happens when it's a Ulster team?"
I believe most are just asking for consistency in the rules and coverage of incidents. Is that really asking too much?

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 08/02/2022 13:35:31    2399304

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Replying To CTGAA10:  "I've seen worse but I had no problem with cards being handed out..I was surprised that more Armagh players weren't picked out..maybe now inter county players will think twice about being the 3rd or 4th person in a row..what I'd like to know is did anyone in the terrace make an effort to do something stupid?if I'm right 2 players were stuck in one another actually over the bloody wall..it has happened at club games where supporters do get involved..a lot of talking points after only 2 weeks..wonder how rest of year will go??also the fact that mcgeary was sent off for 2nd week,does it mean an extra suspension.."
Was on 21 yard line in terrace beside row and not one Armagh or Tyrone fan made an attempt to do anything stupid. There wasn't even the usual shouts of , get stuck in. Maybe people would have liked that but there is respect on both sides.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2017 - 08/02/2022 14:12:24    2399317

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Replying To indaknownow:  "Two very different things you are talking about. From what i saw on sunday night im guessing that most of the players who saw red was for 'contributing to a melee' My understanding of that rule is that if you get involved in a melee in any way you run the risk of getting a red card.
The suspensions in the Mountbellew/Moylough case arise from abuse of the referee. any form of verbal or physical abuse to a referee carries a suspension. so it is not the severity of the abuse alone. Also suspensions are minimum recommendations the committee in charge has the power to impose larger sanctions.
I would imagine the guys sent off on Sunday will get the minimum suspension. Probably just one game. I'm guessing that referees have been told that if a melee develops send a few off instead of the usual one or two from either side. Its probably a directive from croke park to clamp down on this. and fair play to Mr Goff he's not afraid to apply the rules to the letter of the law - as Johnny cooper well knows!!"
Fully understand that these are 2 different situations and the rules are clearly different when officials are involved.
But what I am highlighting is the terminology. A mild push on an official is deemed an "assault" whereas a push that tumbles a player , a pull that drags a player to the ground or a headlock is deemed to be mere handbags.
Also while I accept that the rules and associated suspensions are different for misdemeanors with fellow players as opposed to those with officials , and there is some logic in this. But should the gap be such that in one instance the worst any of the players are going to get is 1 match bans where as in the case of the interference with the official ( for an absolutely lesser level of physical interference) the penalty being spoken about is possibly 1 year ( approximately 15 to 20 games) . My question is , is that a fair level balance . Is the protection of a referee 20 times more important than protection of a player.? I thought they were all human beings.

anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 843 - 08/02/2022 14:17:10    2399320

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Replying To cuchulainn35:  "I was at the match - I was close to the incident and it looked bad for 2 minutes.
But was it a 'melee'
There were 3 players thrown to the ground -
As an Armagh person obviously I'm biased but only one player should have seen red - peter Harte as he ran towards it - therefore contributing to it
What was annoying was the poor analysis by rte - that was shocking and of course we had 2 angels in the studio-"
Oh I'm not so sure about that. I've looked at it numerous times and any player that puts his hand around the neck of another player deserves a red card. That happened 8 times from what I can see in the whatsapp that is going around. Also disturbing to hear the kids behind the fence goading and cheering on that carry on. There's 3 Armagh players at least who should have seen red also. This isn't whataboutery either. If it happens in any game anywhere it should be dealt with like this and the GAA should retrospectively ban any player who David Gough missed.
Approaching another player from behind and pulling him from around the neck with force is potentially lethal and absolutely cowardly. Up there with spitting. The player being pulled has no chance to defend himself or ensure he doesn't get hurt.

daytona11 (Kildare) - Posts: 4012 - 08/02/2022 14:29:25    2399323

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Replying To daytona11:  "Oh I'm not so sure about that. I've looked at it numerous times and any player that puts his hand around the neck of another player deserves a red card. That happened 8 times from what I can see in the whatsapp that is going around. Also disturbing to hear the kids behind the fence goading and cheering on that carry on. There's 3 Armagh players at least who should have seen red also. This isn't whataboutery either. If it happens in any game anywhere it should be dealt with like this and the GAA should retrospectively ban any player who David Gough missed.
Approaching another player from behind and pulling him from around the neck with force is potentially lethal and absolutely cowardly. Up there with spitting. The player being pulled has no chance to defend himself or ensure he doesn't get hurt."
I'm no medical expert but we see it every week when a player takes out another player with a tackle around the neck it's almost always a yellow card. Very often the fouled player is moving at speed. So if putting a hand around the neck of another player should always be a red card, why isn't a red card always issued for a tackle around the neck of a moving player, which is surely much more dangerous?

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 545 - 08/02/2022 15:56:11    2399357

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Replying To midlands:  "I'm no medical expert but we see it every week when a player takes out another player with a tackle around the neck it's almost always a yellow card. Very often the fouled player is moving at speed. So if putting a hand around the neck of another player should always be a red card, why isn't a red card always issued for a tackle around the neck of a moving player, which is surely much more dangerous?"
Yes it should be without a doubt. Head high tackles should be red.

daytona11 (Kildare) - Posts: 4012 - 08/02/2022 16:16:29    2399362

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Replying To midlands:  "As a complete neutral I would say that nobody likes these "melees" - they are ugly and unnecessary. I usually agree with Colm O'Rourke but his comments last night didn't make sense. Predictably, he defended his fellow Meath man saying he was entitled to send off the five players because contributing to a melee is a red card offence. So why didn't he send off the other 20 players who were also contributing to the melee? Gough used to be my favourite referee but lately, as some other poster said, it seems to be all about himself, as was evident just a week before when he was responsible for the wrong sending off of the Kilcoo player. Will he apply the same standards when championship comes round? Would he have sent off five players if it was Dublin v Kerry, who have shared a number of "melees" in recent years?"
O'Rourke, the clock in oul Dublin has less faces, depending on who it is in O'Rourke's eyes they are either punching and brawling or just getting to know each other.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2017 - 08/02/2022 16:27:24    2399367

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Get a grip of yourself saying it was orchestrated, words like strangulation and causing fatal heart irregularities. Your not wise."
If you're trying to say to me 'your not wise', note the spelling should be you're. My having to explain this to you kind of nullifies your mindless statement. Not wise! Anyway, smart starry aside, choke holds are a form of strangulation - fact. Look it up. Multiple medical journals with, I suspect, more knowledge on the matter than you will inform you of the same. And yes, choke holds cause potentially fatal heart irregularities. So we can brush over this stuff or we can say we're just fine with our players effectively strangling one another against metal railings while we cheer. If you're ok with that, then find another 'sport'. To see a number of players from the same team move straight to choke holds at practically the same time could raise the question of orchestration. No?

togoutlads (Galway) - Posts: 908 - 08/02/2022 17:08:16    2399374

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I do not condone wrestling/pushing, or whatever you like to call it-plain silly schoolboy stuff. Sometimes I wonder if one is watching a different game with different rules as interpretations are so different. There are too many pen pushers at all levels within the GAA and guys with little knowledge of our games are in the stand marking the ref. A guy get tossed to the ground and is immediately surrounded by 3 or 4 guys who push and shove the player on the ground-the ref then proceeds to penalize the player on the ground when it should be the other way around. With good officiating few wrestling matches would occur. The analysis on RTE has even gone to a lower level which I thought was impossible. There was many incidents in matches over the weekend which got no mention. In the Kerry Dublin match there was a lot of booing from the Kerry supporters which is another very unpleasant feature in our games- Spillane forgot to mention that in his analysis and the disallowed goal was passed over -something I never seen before in a match. I am a bit surprised at four from one team and one from the other team getting reds-where the Tyrone boys wrestling with themselves?

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 08/02/2022 17:09:16    2399375

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The absolute neck of O'Rourke, pontificating about melees, :D

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8596 - 08/02/2022 17:13:23    2399376

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