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Kerry Teams In Munster Club Championship Have Unfair Advantage

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "We could put 16 teams into the championship but it would seriously weaken the divisional teams and seriously water down our senior championship, in fairness it would probably suit my club if that happened but it wouldn't be for the good of Kerry football as a whole.

It'll not be an easy fix."
It is a bit unfair that Kerry has the structure that it does, and every other year i would stand firm on each county should have automny to run the championship that they want. But counties like Galway and Cork have been told they must have 16 clubs in the championships which will have a massive impact so there should also be a minimum amount of clubs.

Kilkenny have similiar advantage in Hurling may i add.

puckemhard (Galway) - Posts: 230 - 18/01/2022 09:01:27    2395379

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Replying To keeper7:  "Similar to Kilkenny in Junior/Intermediate club hurling championships?"
Kilkenny have 12 senior clubs and 12 intermediate clubs.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2669 - 18/01/2022 09:33:05    2395383

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Replying To puckemhard:  "It is a bit unfair that Kerry has the structure that it does, and every other year i would stand firm on each county should have automny to run the championship that they want. But counties like Galway and Cork have been told they must have 16 clubs in the championships which will have a massive impact so there should also be a minimum amount of clubs.

Kilkenny have similiar advantage in Hurling may i add."
How have Kilkenny got a "similar advantage"?

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2669 - 18/01/2022 09:59:20    2395394

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Replying To skirge7:  "Of course it is relevant.

Kerry are the strongest county and they are fielding higher ranked teams. They are forcing clubs that would be senior in any other county into intermediate. Their county championship does not have to change to fix this. Just their club championship.

If Cork put 2 in senior, 2 in intermediate and the rest junior would that be okay? Then they'd walk the Munster junior championship"
Again makes no sense whatsoever. Intermediate teams from Tipp etc could be senior hurling teams in the likes Kerry.

For the record Cork clubs have won more Munster Junior titles than any other county. So again what's your point?

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1487 - 18/01/2022 10:15:21    2395395

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Replying To puckemhard:  "It is a bit unfair that Kerry has the structure that it does, and every other year i would stand firm on each county should have automny to run the championship that they want. But counties like Galway and Cork have been told they must have 16 clubs in the championships which will have a massive impact so there should also be a minimum amount of clubs.

Kilkenny have similiar advantage in Hurling may i add."
Explain Kilkenny's advantage.

gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 318 - 18/01/2022 10:48:02    2395402

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Replying To gatha:  "Explain Kilkenny's advantage."
Kilkenny clubs have won the most All-Ireland titles at Senior, Intermediate and junior.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1487 - 18/01/2022 11:32:41    2395413

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "How have Kilkenny got a "similar advantage"?"
He's referring to the fact that it's Kilkenny's 13th best team which represents them in the All-Ireland intermediate series, whereas for Galway it's the 25th best team, as we have 24 senior clubs. Likewise for Tipp and Cork, who have similar numbers to Galway (possibly more in Cork's case).
As with Kerry in football, this isn't Kilkenny's issue. They're responsible for organising their structures as they see fit. It's an issue for the 3 counties I've mentioned to resolve. I understand that Tipp might be reducing the number of senior teams and we have proposals in Galway to do the same.
This should give us a more competitive championship.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2223 - 18/01/2022 11:40:59    2395415

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Replying To oneoff:  "Kilkenny clubs have won the most All-Ireland titles at Senior, Intermediate and junior."
And?

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2669 - 18/01/2022 11:41:08    2395416

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Replying To puckemhard:  "It is a bit unfair that Kerry has the structure that it does, and every other year i would stand firm on each county should have automny to run the championship that they want. But counties like Galway and Cork have been told they must have 16 clubs in the championships which will have a massive impact so there should also be a minimum amount of clubs.

Kilkenny have similiar advantage in Hurling may i add."
I didn't know that Cork and Galway were told they had to have 16 clubs in their championship, I thought counties had the choice to structure their championship anyway they wanted.

We have 16 teams in our senior championship it's just that 8 of them are divisional teams (made up of intermediate and junior clubs) and that isn't an excuse I'm just explaining it for people who might not know our situation down here.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 18/01/2022 11:50:46    2395420

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Replying To omahant:  "Inter-county could try something similar - AIC with NFL top 12 plus 4 regional amalgamated teams from the remaining 20."
It works for us down here but id say it would be hard to get buy in from all the counties omahant, it would take years to build up a rapport and a tradition, you would have to get an outside manager.

In a way it would be a great thing as excellent footballers from so called weaker counties would have a great chance of winning an allireland medal that they would not get other wise the likes of mattie Ford Declan Browne Gary Brennan and others.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 18/01/2022 12:01:37    2395424

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "He's referring to the fact that it's Kilkenny's 13th best team which represents them in the All-Ireland intermediate series, whereas for Galway it's the 25th best team, as we have 24 senior clubs. Likewise for Tipp and Cork, who have similar numbers to Galway (possibly more in Cork's case).
As with Kerry in football, this isn't Kilkenny's issue. They're responsible for organising their structures as they see fit. It's an issue for the 3 counties I've mentioned to resolve. I understand that Tipp might be reducing the number of senior teams and we have proposals in Galway to do the same.
This should give us a more competitive championship."
Point taken.
But the population of Galway is around two and a half times bigger than Kilkenny, Cork 5 times as big and Tipp half a size bigger.

Kilkenny has 41 clubs. 12 play senior level, 12 at intermediate. Obviously the standard is high.
You could say that the winner of the junior championship in Kilkenny enters the national intermediate championship, but that would create a whole new set of problems.

The problem with national intermediate and junior competitions is that all counties are not equal.
Each county senior, intermediate and junior championships are created to suit what's best for the local circumstances. What suits Kilkenny wouldn't necessarily suit Galway and vice versa.
This leads to a apparently unequal national championships in the intermediate and junior levels.
What can be done about it? I don't know.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2669 - 18/01/2022 12:19:11    2395429

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Replying To oneoff:  "Why should they're be 12 senior teams?"
Why shouldn't there be. 64 clubs in Kerry and Just make capable of playing Senior.

It's a win at all cost ploy that was passed by Sean Kelly and has resulted in Kerry dominating Junior and Intermediate. I don't know the Cork poster is praising the structure, obviously its good that the Junior clubs can compete at Senior but should be more teams at Senior

Maybe less Divisional teams and more club teams..some of the Divisional teams are made of 8 or 9 clubs

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2839 - 18/01/2022 12:57:33    2395433

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "And?"
They asked what advantage Kilkenny had. Seeing as people are using the number of titles Kerry clubs to justify their advantage is it not the same thing?

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1487 - 18/01/2022 13:16:02    2395436

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I have agree they do have a an advantage, however I do think cork need to fix it system. Maybe have intermediate 'A' as Premier Junior and send them out to the Junior Munster Championship. Gneevguilla where Kerry's 25th ranked team where as Boherbue were Corks 54th ranked. They're was no question who was going to win it. I think Senior 'A' should be rebranded Premier Intermediate and only have one senior level.

I think they should rebrand devisions to this

Premier Senior to Senior
Senior A to Premier Intermediate
Premier Intermediate to Intermediate A
Intermediate A to Premier Junior

and then Junior A will remain the same however won't be representing Cork in the Munster Junior Championship as that would go to the Premier Junior champions

DuhallowRed (Cork) - Posts: 304 - 18/01/2022 14:00:30    2395448

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Kerry teams certainly get an advantage from how their competitions are formatted, and it's also true that there's nothing stopping other counties from copying this and slashing the number of teams in each grade so that better clubs get sent on to the provincial series.

To me though this would violate the spirit of the Intermediate and Junior club championships. These competitions were brought in to give weaker clubs a shot at a provincial run playing against their peers at a similar level, with the prospect of big days in provincial finals and All Ireland games.

I'm sure Meath could win more provincial club titles if we cut our senior and intermediate to 10 teams each but we wouldn't really be sending our "junior" champions to the Leinster JFC anymore in that case. We'd be sending a team that beforehand would have been one of the best teams in Intermediate.

CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1668 - 18/01/2022 14:33:44    2395452

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Replying To oneoff:  "They asked what advantage Kilkenny had. Seeing as people are using the number of titles Kerry clubs to justify their advantage is it not the same thing?"
No it's not necessarily the same thing. The club setup in Kerry football is a lot different to the setup in Kilkenny hurling. The only thing in common is winning a lot at national level.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2669 - 18/01/2022 14:57:55    2395457

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "Point taken.
But the population of Galway is around two and a half times bigger than Kilkenny, Cork 5 times as big and Tipp half a size bigger.

Kilkenny has 41 clubs. 12 play senior level, 12 at intermediate. Obviously the standard is high.
You could say that the winner of the junior championship in Kilkenny enters the national intermediate championship, but that would create a whole new set of problems.

The problem with national intermediate and junior competitions is that all counties are not equal.
Each county senior, intermediate and junior championships are created to suit what's best for the local circumstances. What suits Kilkenny wouldn't necessarily suit Galway and vice versa.
This leads to a apparently unequal national championships in the intermediate and junior levels.
What can be done about it? I don't know."
That's exactly it and it's the point I'm making. Each county's championships need to be structured based on their own specifics, number of clubs, population, even geographic spread in some cases.
A good proportion of Galway's population is in non-hurling areas. It's been generally agreed that we have too many weak senior clubs. Reducing this number should ensure more competitive championships from Senior down to Junior.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2223 - 18/01/2022 15:27:58    2395461

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In Dublin they have a B Championship instead of those teams going down to Intermediate. Dublin clubs don't do well at Intermediate and Junior as a result.

St Vincents were relegated from Senior but in B Championship next year. Would a Leinster and All Ireland Intermediate not be better then a.B.championship

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2839 - 18/01/2022 15:35:12    2395463

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Replying To oneoff:  "They asked what advantage Kilkenny had. Seeing as people are using the number of titles Kerry clubs to justify their advantage is it not the same thing?"
The grading of clubs in Kerry is based on logic, namely to have competitive games in each division. There are eight senior teams in the county championship this based on their standing in the club championship.
Divisional teams have won the county eleven times in twenty years.
East Kerry won in 2019 and 2020 and got knocked out in the first round in 2021. The team was made up of player from Firies, Fossa, Glenflesk, Gneevguilla, Listry, Rathmore, Kilcummin, Tuosist, Kilgarvan.
The Crokes (Killarney) a stand alone team have won it eight times in the past twenty years.
Shannon Gaels (Asdee, Ballydonoghue, Ballyduff, Ballylongford, Beale, Tarbert) and Feale Rangers (Clounmacon, Duagh, Finuge, Listowel Emmets, Moyvane, St. Senan's) have not won a game in years.
My point is that none of these clubs are qualified to be classified as senior calibre. To include any of them individually in the county championship schedule would render the competition a farce.
The set up is totally logical. You have all the teams playing in competition which is suits their standard.
Promotion and relegation of teams is strictly enforced.

Gaa Fan (USA) - Posts: 762 - 18/01/2022 16:17:46    2395472

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Replying To FoolsGold:  "Why shouldn't there be. 64 clubs in Kerry and Just make capable of playing Senior.

It's a win at all cost ploy that was passed by Sean Kelly and has resulted in Kerry dominating Junior and Intermediate. I don't know the Cork poster is praising the structure, obviously its good that the Junior clubs can compete at Senior but should be more teams at Senior

Maybe less Divisional teams and more club teams..some of the Divisional teams are made of 8 or 9 clubs"
I'm no fan of Sean Kelly because we all know what he did when regarding money to the big blue when he was president even if he did do it in good faith, but I doubt he setup the Kerry championship in such away as we'd dominate the junior and intermediate championship.

We've a lot of clubs struggling for numbers down here, Valentia young islanders (club of the great Mick O'connell) folded last year, other clubs having to join up to compete.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 18/01/2022 16:20:19    2395473

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