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Kerry Teams In Munster Club Championship Have Unfair Advantage

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Are the Kerry clubs not artificially boosted in the Munster Championship?

There are only 8 senior clubs in Kerry. This means the 9th best club is playing intermediate and the 25th best is playing junior.

They are not competing at the same level at all.

Dublin has 32 senior.
Mayo has 16 seniors clubs and a smaller population.
Cork has 24 senior clubs.
Tipperary has 16 senior clubs.
Clare has 13 senior clubs.

The Cork winners of intermediate were the 25th ranked club in Cork. They played in the intermediate Munster championship. Gneevguillia the 25th ranked team in Kerry played in the junior!

skirge7 (UK) - Posts: 254 - 17/01/2022 10:58:08    2395247

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Replying To skirge7:  "Are the Kerry clubs not artificially boosted in the Munster Championship?

There are only 8 senior clubs in Kerry. This means the 9th best club is playing intermediate and the 25th best is playing junior.

They are not competing at the same level at all.

Dublin has 32 senior.
Mayo has 16 seniors clubs and a smaller population.
Cork has 24 senior clubs.
Tipperary has 16 senior clubs.
Clare has 13 senior clubs.

The Cork winners of intermediate were the 25th ranked club in Cork. They played in the intermediate Munster championship. Gneevguillia the 25th ranked team in Kerry played in the junior!"
Controversial subject!!

We can't dictate to counties how many clubs they have at any level? Kerry have 8 Divisional or amalgamated sides in senior football which makes their championship very competitive. I think every county should model their championship that way. It gives every player in the county the chance to play senior club championship..but in a way where they are in competitive teams.

Some counties have too many senior clubs with many of them with no chance of ever winning anything
. Cork was like that for far too long. We do have 24 teams at senior now. However, we have two championships. This has been a recent reform which had increased the competitiveness of our championship no end. Our mistake currently is that we are not sending our second winners into intermediate championship. Mallow should have played Na Gaeil and Newmarket should have been junior as they won the third championship. All that said, Ballygiblin won our sixth championship in hurling and still won the Munster Cup.

It's all about standard. Kerry have an advantage because they have good systems in place which allow good footballers and clubs to flourish. I'd be inclined to copy it rather than bemoan it.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 17/01/2022 11:33:37    2395255

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Replying To skirge7:  "Are the Kerry clubs not artificially boosted in the Munster Championship?

There are only 8 senior clubs in Kerry. This means the 9th best club is playing intermediate and the 25th best is playing junior.

They are not competing at the same level at all.

Dublin has 32 senior.
Mayo has 16 seniors clubs and a smaller population.
Cork has 24 senior clubs.
Tipperary has 16 senior clubs.
Clare has 13 senior clubs.

The Cork winners of intermediate were the 25th ranked club in Cork. They played in the intermediate Munster championship. Gneevguillia the 25th ranked team in Kerry played in the junior!"
I clocked that long ago, kerry teams have the club inter and junior comps sewn up especially as the best junior players join up with other smaller teams to play senior divisional football

gaelsboy (Leitrim) - Posts: 587 - 17/01/2022 11:46:39    2395259

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Replying To bennybunny:  "Controversial subject!!

We can't dictate to counties how many clubs they have at any level? Kerry have 8 Divisional or amalgamated sides in senior football which makes their championship very competitive. I think every county should model their championship that way. It gives every player in the county the chance to play senior club championship..but in a way where they are in competitive teams.

Some counties have too many senior clubs with many of them with no chance of ever winning anything
. Cork was like that for far too long. We do have 24 teams at senior now. However, we have two championships. This has been a recent reform which had increased the competitiveness of our championship no end. Our mistake currently is that we are not sending our second winners into intermediate championship. Mallow should have played Na Gaeil and Newmarket should have been junior as they won the third championship. All that said, Ballygiblin won our sixth championship in hurling and still won the Munster Cup.

It's all about standard. Kerry have an advantage because they have good systems in place which allow good footballers and clubs to flourish. I'd be inclined to copy it rather than bemoan it."
I am not be moaning the Kerry Championship (which is different from their club championship). I think it's great. I think think they should have more senior teams in their club championship. Or send a lower grade team to munster as their "intermediate" winners are not actually at intermediate level.

skirge7 (UK) - Posts: 254 - 17/01/2022 11:51:22    2395261

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For context Kerry clubs have won 14 of the last 15 in intermediate and 17 of the last 20 in junior.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munster_Junior_Club_Football_Championship
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munster_Intermediate_Club_Football_Championship

skirge7 (UK) - Posts: 254 - 17/01/2022 11:54:24    2395263

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Similar to Kilkenny in Junior/Intermediate club hurling championships?

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 17/01/2022 12:28:57    2395273

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Replying To skirge7:  "I am not be moaning the Kerry Championship (which is different from their club championship). I think it's great. I think think they should have more senior teams in their club championship. Or send a lower grade team to munster as their "intermediate" winners are not actually at intermediate level."
I am not saying you are moaning. I used the word bemoan anyway. The point was that I admire the system.



As a Cork football supporter, I am only too aware of their absolute domination of their teams in Junior/intermediate. Boherbue this year got thumped by Gneeguilla at Junior level. The issue here though is not Gneeguilla but rather who Cork put up against them. Newmarket, the winners of our third championship would have given them a better game and may have won. Mallow certainly would have been competitive at intermediate.

Being competitive is key here. There is no point in adding teams to your championship if they are not going to be competitive.

All counties should regularly look at the number of clubs they have at each level and ensure, as best they can, their competitiveness. Some counties (like Waterford hurling presently) have one club that are absolutely dominant. Obviously you can't have a championship with one side. By the same token, there is no point having 20 teams as Canon fodder either. Perhaps counties can examine the possibility of amalgamating the weaker sides to see if they raise competiveness overall and regrade weaker teams.

Kerry have done that. They currently see 8 plus Divisional sides as what works best for them. Objectively, it works fairly well. Their club championship is completely different to County championship. A lesser tournament.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 17/01/2022 12:48:07    2395280

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Replying To skirge7:  "Are the Kerry clubs not artificially boosted in the Munster Championship?

There are only 8 senior clubs in Kerry. This means the 9th best club is playing intermediate and the 25th best is playing junior.

They are not competing at the same level at all.

Dublin has 32 senior.
Mayo has 16 seniors clubs and a smaller population.
Cork has 24 senior clubs.
Tipperary has 16 senior clubs.
Clare has 13 senior clubs.

The Cork winners of intermediate were the 25th ranked club in Cork. They played in the intermediate Munster championship. Gneevguillia the 25th ranked team in Kerry played in the junior!"
Ya we definitely have an advantage in the junior and intermediate due to our championship structure in Kerry.

I don't know what can be done to remedy this, we don't want to have to change our structures as they serve us well with our 8 senior clubs and 8 devisional teams it give us a lot of really well contested games.

There were talks of increasing the amount of senior teams to 12 but its all gone quite again.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 17/01/2022 13:25:02    2395291

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It's up to every county to decide how they want their competitions to run. Kerry have a system in place which works well for them. It does give them an advantage at intermediate and junior, at provincial and All-Ireland level, but that's not Kerry's problem to resolve.
From their point of view, it gives the best players at small clubs a chance to play at the highest level with their divisional team, while also ensuring they play with their local clubs too and have a chance to progress. It's a good solution for a county with a lot of small rural clubs, spread across the county.
In Galway we have 24 senior hurling teams and 18 senior football teams. Most agree that this is too many, especially in hurling.
Proposals are in place to finally resolve this, so we should have a more balanced structure in the next couple of years.
Our intermediate football champions are our 19th team. While we've done quite well at intermediate in Connacht in recent years, it is a serious challenge for them to beat the 9th best team in Kerry in any given year. Oughterard managed it a couple of years ago by beating Templenoe, but that was big shock.
Our intermediate hurling winners are our 25th best team and have been losing out to the Mayo senior champions in recent years.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2223 - 17/01/2022 14:02:21    2395304

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Ya we definitely have an advantage in the junior and intermediate due to our championship structure in Kerry.

I don't know what can be done to remedy this, we don't want to have to change our structures as they serve us well with our 8 senior clubs and 8 devisional teams it give us a lot of really well contested games.

There were talks of increasing the amount of senior teams to 12 but its all gone quite again."
Could easily put 16 clubs senior.

The Championship can have the top 8 senior clubs and 8 divisional teams.

skirge7 (UK) - Posts: 254 - 17/01/2022 14:12:33    2395307

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up to clubs and county boards to get their structure in place instead of blaming kerry.

kerry4sam21 (Kerry) - Posts: 103 - 17/01/2022 15:27:47    2395327

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Replying To skirge7:  "I am not be moaning the Kerry Championship (which is different from their club championship). I think it's great. I think think they should have more senior teams in their club championship. Or send a lower grade team to munster as their "intermediate" winners are not actually at intermediate level."
How are they not at Intermediate level if they're in the Intermediate championship?

The Kerry Intermediate champions in hurling are until last season were the 9th "best" team yet have made no impact. This 9th, 25th team etc is totally irrelevant.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1487 - 17/01/2022 15:43:35    2395333

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Kerry has over 60.clubs. The 9th best team shouldn't be Intermediate. Obviously there is lots of Amalgamations but should have 12 Senior clubs in reality

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2839 - 17/01/2022 15:57:13    2395335

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Replying To skirge7:  "Could easily put 16 clubs senior.

The Championship can have the top 8 senior clubs and 8 divisional teams."
We could put 16 teams into the championship but it would seriously weaken the divisional teams and seriously water down our senior championship, in fairness it would probably suit my club if that happened but it wouldn't be for the good of Kerry football as a whole.

It'll not be an easy fix.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 17/01/2022 16:22:52    2395341

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Replying To oneoff:  "How are they not at Intermediate level if they're in the Intermediate championship?

The Kerry Intermediate champions in hurling are until last season were the 9th "best" team yet have made no impact. This 9th, 25th team etc is totally irrelevant."
Of course it is relevant.

Kerry are the strongest county and they are fielding higher ranked teams. They are forcing clubs that would be senior in any other county into intermediate. Their county championship does not have to change to fix this. Just their club championship.

If Cork put 2 in senior, 2 in intermediate and the rest junior would that be okay? Then they'd walk the Munster junior championship

skirge7 (UK) - Posts: 254 - 17/01/2022 16:39:34    2395348

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Replying To FoolsGold:  "Kerry has over 60.clubs. The 9th best team shouldn't be Intermediate. Obviously there is lots of Amalgamations but should have 12 Senior clubs in reality"
No they shouldnt. They have 16 teams playing in the senior championship and their record shows it works very well for them. 12 senior clubs would mean lot more players would never get shot playing senior championship as you likely wouldnt be able to have 8 amalgamations playing senior with 12 senior clubs.
Kerry does have over 60 clubs but most are very small very rural clubs. their system allows players from these small clubs chance to play senior and has over long time shown to work well.
dont see why it should or needs to change

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3695 - 17/01/2022 16:52:07    2395350

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Have to agree that yes Kerry do have an advantage because of the Kerry system but our county championship system is good and allows every player the opportunity to play senior championship football if good enough. Players at small div 5 clubs for example can play with a divisional side in county championship. I think its a great system and Cork s too but yes alas it does give Kerry an advantage against other counties at intermediate level in particular.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3851 - 17/01/2022 17:12:14    2395352

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Replying To FoolsGold:  "Kerry has over 60.clubs. The 9th best team shouldn't be Intermediate. Obviously there is lots of Amalgamations but should have 12 Senior clubs in reality"
Why should they're be 12 senior teams?

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1487 - 17/01/2022 17:54:02    2395357

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "We could put 16 teams into the championship but it would seriously weaken the divisional teams and seriously water down our senior championship, in fairness it would probably suit my club if that happened but it wouldn't be for the good of Kerry football as a whole.

It'll not be an easy fix."
Example of two North Kerry Divisional Senior Championship teams:
Shannon Rangers are comprised of all junior teams, I think these are the clubs: Beale; Asdee; Ballylongford; Ballyduff, Ballydonoghue. They have not won a game in the senior Championship in years. One player on the County panel at the moment, Jason Foley. However because of the set-up they get to play at Senior level for one game.....straight KO this year.
The other divisional team from North Kerry is Feale Rangers: Listowel, Tarbert, Duagh, Finuge, Moyvane, Clounmacon. Have not won a game in recent memory.........no player on the county panel......all junior clubs.
Divisional teams must come from adjoining clubs. If as has been pointed out more clubs were forced to play in the senior championship it would be a farce and result in meaningless games. A strict promotion and relegation system is in place.

Gaa Fan (USA) - Posts: 762 - 17/01/2022 18:27:04    2395365

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Replying To bennybunny:  "I am not saying you are moaning. I used the word bemoan anyway. The point was that I admire the system.



As a Cork football supporter, I am only too aware of their absolute domination of their teams in Junior/intermediate. Boherbue this year got thumped by Gneeguilla at Junior level. The issue here though is not Gneeguilla but rather who Cork put up against them. Newmarket, the winners of our third championship would have given them a better game and may have won. Mallow certainly would have been competitive at intermediate.

Being competitive is key here. There is no point in adding teams to your championship if they are not going to be competitive.

All counties should regularly look at the number of clubs they have at each level and ensure, as best they can, their competitiveness. Some counties (like Waterford hurling presently) have one club that are absolutely dominant. Obviously you can't have a championship with one side. By the same token, there is no point having 20 teams as Canon fodder either. Perhaps counties can examine the possibility of amalgamating the weaker sides to see if they raise competiveness overall and regrade weaker teams.

Kerry have done that. They currently see 8 plus Divisional sides as what works best for them. Objectively, it works fairly well. Their club championship is completely different to County championship. A lesser tournament."
Inter-county could try something similar - AIC with NFL top 12 plus 4 regional amalgamated teams from the remaining 20.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2977 - 17/01/2022 18:31:23    2395366

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