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Replying To supersub15: "To scrutinize one person's performance out of many on the field of play and when the game is over refer to it as a referee's assessment is all very fine but there is no assessment going to stop a punch up in a goal mouth, red card been dished out that appears to be questionable, as a result a mouth full of un pleasantries is dished out at the referee, or an umpire waving the last kick of a winning score wide, the player protests with the referee, another protests with the umpire and before you know it there is an explosive situation getting out of hand.
Those that deal with suspensions / punishments / indiscipline / controversies should be seen to be doing their job.
Simplify the rules, make them more user friendly and less of them, but more meaningful and effective.
Anything to do with match reports including the referees assessment should be confidential, however I would make a
case for some, or all of the assessment been made available to the team manager and or the team captain.
A transparent PR system would help." How many sports allow an assessment of an official be released to a team coach?
Soccer, rugby certainly dont. They may release findings that the ref made a mistake on point of law
The biggest thing some people need to learn is that the officials must be respected. Just saying simplify the rules etc is fine but the overall respect levels of refs must be higher.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 10/01/2022 11:22:18
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Killing Fields County Limerick
Tomsmith here from County Cavan
While i agree with you that Soccer and Rugby Referees assessments are not released ( nor is Gaa Referees assessments) but the difference is that Soccer and Rugby Referees explain why the made a decision. Particularly the Soccer Referee who goes over to the sideliner and he looks into the Television and he then decides on what he sees.. The Rugby man or Rugby Referee has the advantage of other people to decide for him after the game is stopped and slow motion pictures are studied. If you look at any Game where a lot of the loosing team felt a severe injustice was dome , this team has no recourse to anything at all. Indeed not a player or supporter would know whether the Referee was highly commended or sanctioned. At least we all know and see when a Referee has a good game and is on top of the rules and Refs in a fair manner but when someone may feel that doesn't happen all players, supporters are in limbo in relation to what happened on the field.. I can also say that while some Referees are /were slated in relation to decisions during a game it often happens that in a replay that the Referee was correct in his interpretation of the rules
tomsmith (Cavan) - Posts: 3857 - 11/01/2022 08:52:07
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It's not often Tom Smith starts a post that can actually be taken seriously - but there is some merit in this one - Good man Tom!!
I recently heard a quote saying a referee sees a game with his eyes - Players, Managers, Supporters see games with their Hearts.
I wouldn't be of the opinion that individual assessments be made public but there are some things that the GAA can do to improve matters.
It is a fact that very few Players/Managers/Supporters know the rules of GAA to a great extent. I know when the new football rules came in 2 years ago my own county board ran a seminar (pre covid) to discuss the rules with Clubs and club managers. Less than 10% of the clubs attended. I still see players playing in last years championship not understanding the mark rule. and one Goalkeeper going to take a kickout from the 13M line. Would it be an idea to have a Rules spot on the Sunday game with someone like Pat McEneany to explain some of the more complicated rules and their implementation. And to maybe help with the analysis.
Referees do make mistakes - As do players. But when mistakes happen instead of brushing them under the carpet a spokesperson from the GAA should admit it and we move on. and whatever retraining etc is appropriate can take place (But is should take place)
As always Transparency and accountability are the most important thing here - I think if you had that you might also have more understanding of the difficulties of being a ref and also the levels of respect might rise.
indaknownow (Offaly) - Posts: 112 - 11/01/2022 12:16:42
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Replying To tomsmith: "Killing Fields County Limerick
Tomsmith here from County Cavan
While i agree with you that Soccer and Rugby Referees assessments are not released ( nor is Gaa Referees assessments) but the difference is that Soccer and Rugby Referees explain why the made a decision. Particularly the Soccer Referee who goes over to the sideliner and he looks into the Television and he then decides on what he sees.. The Rugby man or Rugby Referee has the advantage of other people to decide for him after the game is stopped and slow motion pictures are studied. If you look at any Game where a lot of the loosing team felt a severe injustice was dome , this team has no recourse to anything at all. Indeed not a player or supporter would know whether the Referee was highly commended or sanctioned. At least we all know and see when a Referee has a good game and is on top of the rules and Refs in a fair manner but when someone may feel that doesn't happen all players, supporters are in limbo in relation to what happened on the field.. I can also say that while some Referees are /were slated in relation to decisions during a game it often happens that in a replay that the Referee was correct in his interpretation of the rules" Except soccer refs dont really explain their decisions and refs are far from respected in soccer either
The rugby ref has a TMO to assist in the professional game but they still have to look at video themselves where thats possible and ideally make decision on their own without the assistance of TMO.
Most often when a team feels a severe injustice was done then it hasnt exactly happened.
mic up referees and give linesmen and umpires more powers to assist the referee instead of what you suggest
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 11/01/2022 13:37:19
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Interesting topic! But what is the origin of this topic... is it perceived poor calls from a referee in the recent past ?
If it is based on a.perceiced poor performance over the past few weeks them the whole idea should be scrapped forthwith.
There is no doubt that people who watch their team playing very often lose the run of themselves and I fear this is another such occasion... as has been already stated referees themselves get a copy of their assessment and why should anybody else be privileged with that info except those in charge of appointments ?
The referee gets his assessment and he can choose to ignore it or.learn from it. Leave it at that.
Amazing that only 10% of clubs and their managers were present for a rules clarification forum.
That tells it all ! Clubs are only interested or become interested in the rules when they feel they are the victims of a.poor performance. Move.on now....
carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1821 - 11/01/2022 13:55:04
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Tomsmith here from County Cavan
I have read all the previous comments and I feel some very strange people are associated with the GAA. I was going to say uneducated people but that would be unfair to posters that are tryng ones best and may not have a good friend to advis them prior to posting.. Having said all that I must say that all comments are leaning towards covering up if an injustice happens to aGAA team..
Whay has the Gaa assessor, The REferee, the Referee appoints committee, and probally teh County boads peopl all have access to this so called confidential report when the [people that may have been wronged ie the ,most likely the loosing team can not get a peep at acopy of it
tomsmith (Cavan) - Posts: 3857 - 18/01/2022 13:17:35
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I just wonder is that putting the emphasis on the wrong thing. What will it achieve? Having further abuse of the ref from the arm chair officials on social media who draw a conclusion after five replays and a t.v. analyst who wants to be relevant.
Improving the over all skills of the "officiating team" should be the goal. Giving them support through technology, training, rules that are attainable and yes public support with an attitude change. How often if the ref follows the rule book he is lambasted for so called destroying the game. I think it would help with some supporters if the officials were miked to the stadium sound announcing the infringement while giving the player an explanation. However this alone will not stops the goons who regularly show up.
The discussion points are always about the ref as opposed to the officiating. The referee does not make all the decisions and I would hazzard a guess for the major of controversy calls (like red cards) he is acting on information supplied to him.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 18/01/2022 14:55:06
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Replying To tomsmith: "Tomsmith here from County Cavan
I have read all the previous comments and I feel some very strange people are associated with the GAA. I was going to say uneducated people but that would be unfair to posters that are tryng ones best and may not have a good friend to advis them prior to posting.. Having said all that I must say that all comments are leaning towards covering up if an injustice happens to aGAA team..
Whay has the Gaa assessor, The REferee, the Referee appoints committee, and probally teh County boads peopl all have access to this so called confidential report when the [people that may have been wronged ie the ,most likely the loosing team can not get a peep at acopy of it" I just can't agree with your view that all, are covering up injustices within the GAA. That's your language and I have not bothered to put it within speech marks.
Nobody is denying that mistakes are and have been made. And mistakes will be made again too !!! Absolutely no doubt about that.
The real situation is that we are dealing with sports that are full.of contact, with large playing numbers and on very big playing areas, 90m by 145.
The sports are fast moving and all in all are difficult to referee.
You think that referee assessments should be out there for all to see including those who are feeling aggrieved. Fair enough, that's your view.
When referees make mistakes, the focus does turn on them and they are not immune from the attendant criticism that can often be overboard and impinge on their officials and family life too.
Referees I'm sure know right well when they have made a.mistake and they have to live with it too.
If they are good enough to take the time out to referee then, they should be thanked for their effort and not be held up and out there for further ridicule and criticism.
Referees are human too, just like players. Would we do the same with our players... hold them out there when they err ? Definitely not.
carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1821 - 18/01/2022 15:34:39
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Replying To carlowman: "I just can't agree with your view that all, are covering up injustices within the GAA. That's your language and I have not bothered to put it within speech marks.
Nobody is denying that mistakes are and have been made. And mistakes will be made again too !!! Absolutely no doubt about that.
The real situation is that we are dealing with sports that are full.of contact, with large playing numbers and on very big playing areas, 90m by 145.
The sports are fast moving and all in all are difficult to referee.
You think that referee assessments should be out there for all to see including those who are feeling aggrieved. Fair enough, that's your view.
When referees make mistakes, the focus does turn on them and they are not immune from the attendant criticism that can often be overboard and impinge on their officials and family life too.
Referees I'm sure know right well when they have made a.mistake and they have to live with it too.
If they are good enough to take the time out to referee then, they should be thanked for their effort and not be held up and out there for further ridicule and criticism.
Referees are human too, just like players. Would we do the same with our players... hold them out there when they err ? Definitely not." Carlowman of 1648 posts
Tomsmith here from County Cavan
When referees make mistakes, the focus does turn on them and they are not immune from the attendant criticism that can often be overboard and impinge on their officials and family life too.
Referees I'm sure know right well when they have made a.mistake and they have to live with it too
I feeel Carlowman you have hit the nail on the head or the modern term is you are on the money when you posted this piece and stated Referees know when a mistake is made.. So what is the big deal to release the Referees assessment to the team that has bee wronged..
I say most Referees do agreat job and should be commended for doing it, but like in all profession's you can have the one and I feel these should be exposed. Lets see what the GAA HG feel about that wrong( Carlow Man that you refer too ) that has been committed...
Publish these assessments of all Referees good or bad
tomsmith (Cavan) - Posts: 3857 - 19/01/2022 09:47:19
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Replying To tomsmith: "Carlowman of 1648 posts
Tomsmith here from County Cavan
When referees make mistakes, the focus does turn on them and they are not immune from the attendant criticism that can often be overboard and impinge on their officials and family life too.
Referees I'm sure know right well when they have made a.mistake and they have to live with it too
I feeel Carlowman you have hit the nail on the head or the modern term is you are on the money when you posted this piece and stated Referees know when a mistake is made.. So what is the big deal to release the Referees assessment to the team that has bee wronged..
I say most Referees do agreat job and should be commended for doing it, but like in all profession's you can have the one and I feel these should be exposed. Lets see what the GAA HG feel about that wrong( Carlow Man that you refer too ) that has been committed...
Publish these assessments of all Referees good or bad" Refs do know when a major mistake is made but that still doesnt mean their assessments should be published. nothing except more abuse of officials will happen if your idea was to be adopted.
some refs can make mistakes and ref at a level they may not be suited but publishing why they shouldnt be at that level isnt right, isnt fair and will just see less people want to ref if these reports are published.
especially where refs are amateurs.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 19/01/2022 13:17:36
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Referees are not in a profession, they're volunteers. Rugby and Premier league referees are professional, well paid, world of difference.
Claretandblue (Westmeath) - Posts: 1490 - 19/01/2022 14:22:04
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Replying To tomsmith: "Carlowman of 1648 posts
Tomsmith here from County Cavan
When referees make mistakes, the focus does turn on them and they are not immune from the attendant criticism that can often be overboard and impinge on their officials and family life too.
Referees I'm sure know right well when they have made a.mistake and they have to live with it too
I feeel Carlowman you have hit the nail on the head or the modern term is you are on the money when you posted this piece and stated Referees know when a mistake is made.. So what is the big deal to release the Referees assessment to the team that has bee wronged..
I say most Referees do agreat job and should be commended for doing it, but like in all profession's you can have the one and I feel these should be exposed. Lets see what the GAA HG feel about that wrong( Carlow Man that you refer too ) that has been committed...
Publish these assessments of all Referees good or bad" Hi Tom from Cavan !
I still believe there is no need to publish assessments of referees regardless of whether a ref does a good or bad job.
Surely, the purpose of assessments is to give a neutral report to the referee himself and this report should be used for the ref to improve.for future games. That is, if he is actually is appointed for further games.
As I understand the situation, referees will not get to referee if they make serious mistakes. Assessments accumulate the data on the quality of each refereeing performance.
The finished neutral report I am sure goes directly to those who appoint for games. They need information so as to judge who should be appointed for further matches in a competition.
Again, as I see it, why would anyone outside of that process be privy to the contents of a report ?
As I asked in my previous contribution- would we ask the same of a player who has erred ? I think not!
We all make mistakes, whether it's managers players or officials. None of us like to dwell on them after a match and bringing more attention to such mistakes nearly does any good.
carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1821 - 19/01/2022 14:30:50
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Replying To carlowman: " Replying To tomsmith: "Carlowman of 1648 posts
Tomsmith here from County Cavan
When referees make mistakes, the focus does turn on them and they are not immune from the attendant criticism that can often be overboard and impinge on their officials and family life too.
Referees I'm sure know right well when they have made a.mistake and they have to live with it too
I feeel Carlowman you have hit the nail on the head or the modern term is you are on the money when you posted this piece and stated Referees know when a mistake is made.. So what is the big deal to release the Referees assessment to the team that has bee wronged..
I say most Referees do agreat job and should be commended for doing it, but like in all profession's you can have the one and I feel these should be exposed. Lets see what the GAA HG feel about that wrong( Carlow Man that you refer too ) that has been committed...
Publish these assessments of all Referees good or bad" Hi Tom from Cavan ! I still believe there is no need to publish assessments of referees regardless of whether a ref does a good or bad job. Surely, the purpose of assessments is to give a neutral report to the referee himself and this report should be used for the ref to improve.for future games. That is, if he is actually is appointed for further games. As I understand the situation, referees will not get to referee if they make serious mistakes. Assessments accumulate the data on the quality of each refereeing performance. The finished neutral report I am sure goes directly to those who appoint for games. They need information so as to judge who should be appointed for further matches in a competition. Again, as I see it, why would anyone outside of that process be privy to the contents of a report ? As I asked in my previous contribution- would we ask the same of a player who has erred ? I think not! We all make mistakes, whether it's managers players or officials. None of us like to dwell on them after a match and bringing more attention to such mistakes nearly does any good."
Tomsmith here from Cavan..
I cannot understand all the secrecy in relation to assessments of the poor Referee.
If you take it that these fellows and Girls are all volunteers and do so in an non paid capacity and it takes up a full Sunday.. Havent said that secrecy should not exist in any democratic organisation and that is what I call withholding these assessments. It unfair to excellent Referees, team that are wronged, Supporters that pay handsome money to get into a game to follow one team..
So I again say post the assessments
tomsmith (Cavan) - Posts: 3857 - 19/01/2022 20:59:06
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Replying To tomsmith: " Replying To carlowman: "[quote=tomsmith: "Carlowman of 1648 posts
Tomsmith here from County Cavan
When referees make mistakes, the focus does turn on them and they are not immune from the attendant criticism that can often be overboard and impinge on their officials and family life too.
Referees I'm sure know right well when they have made a.mistake and they have to live with it too
I feeel Carlowman you have hit the nail on the head or the modern term is you are on the money when you posted this piece and stated Referees know when a mistake is made.. So what is the big deal to release the Referees assessment to the team that has bee wronged..
I say most Referees do agreat job and should be commended for doing it, but like in all profession's you can have the one and I feel these should be exposed. Lets see what the GAA HG feel about that wrong( Carlow Man that you refer too ) that has been committed...
Publish these assessments of all Referees good or bad" Hi Tom from Cavan ! I still believe there is no need to publish assessments of referees regardless of whether a ref does a good or bad job. Surely, the purpose of assessments is to give a neutral report to the referee himself and this report should be used for the ref to improve.for future games. That is, if he is actually is appointed for further games. As I understand the situation, referees will not get to referee if they make serious mistakes. Assessments accumulate the data on the quality of each refereeing performance. The finished neutral report I am sure goes directly to those who appoint for games. They need information so as to judge who should be appointed for further matches in a competition. Again, as I see it, why would anyone outside of that process be privy to the contents of a report ? As I asked in my previous contribution- would we ask the same of a player who has erred ? I think not! We all make mistakes, whether it's managers players or officials. None of us like to dwell on them after a match and bringing more attention to such mistakes nearly does any good."
Tomsmith here from Cavan..
I cannot understand all the secrecy in relation to assessments of the poor Referee.
If you take it that these fellows and Girls are all volunteers and do so in an non paid capacity and it takes up a full Sunday.. Havent said that secrecy should not exist in any democratic organisation and that is what I call withholding these assessments. It unfair to excellent Referees, team that are wronged, Supporters that pay handsome money to get into a game to follow one team..
So I again say post the assessments"]Because you or I have no right to know the specifics that an assessment will go into.
That is the private information of the match official in question and it shouldnt be released without their consent.
Refs get enough abuse in GAA without giving more ammunition to those who shout out abuse.
it isnt secrecy. its being fair to those officials. of course officials make mistakes and they get covered in big games by media enough.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 20/01/2022 12:32:27
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Replying To Claretandblue: "Referees are not in a profession, they're volunteers. Rugby and Premier league referees are professional, well paid, world of difference." They are Volunteers but the get a nice few bob for it. Not doing it for nothing.
In comparison with soccer in the last few days a Soccer ref is facing a lengthy suspension for making a game deciding mistake in an AC Milan game. Big difference between that and recent Mountbellew game
sourmilk93 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1145 - 21/01/2022 11:33:28
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Replying To sourmilk93: "They are Volunteers but the get a nice few bob for it. Not doing it for nothing.
In comparison with soccer in the last few days a Soccer ref is facing a lengthy suspension for making a game deciding mistake in an AC Milan game. Big difference between that and recent Mountbellew game" How much does an inter county ref get for match?
gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 318 - 21/01/2022 12:25:05
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Replying To gatha: "How much does an inter county ref get for match?" He gets his expenses and it can vary.
sourmilk93 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1145 - 21/01/2022 12:55:45
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Replying To sourmilk93: "They are Volunteers but the get a nice few bob for it. Not doing it for nothing.
In comparison with soccer in the last few days a Soccer ref is facing a lengthy suspension for making a game deciding mistake in an AC Milan game. Big difference between that and recent Mountbellew game" Yes, a big difference! One involves a full-time, paid job, and the other involves a hobby. So, of course different criteria applies to each of these refereeing situations.
Btw, have those six or seven MM players received their suspensions yet? And furthermore, have they been named?
foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1911 - 21/01/2022 13:32:09
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Replying To foreveryoung: "Yes, a big difference! One involves a full-time, paid job, and the other involves a hobby. So, of course different criteria applies to each of these refereeing situations.
Btw, have those six or seven MM players received their suspensions yet? And furthermore, have they been named?" 7 players and their initial suspensions have been widely circulated on social media. Not sure of appeals but it appears that 2 have already been heard and cleared as they were not involved at all and nowhere near the referee at the end of the game. One of them has played 2 Sigerson games for NUIG since the suspension was issued and cleared.
anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 840 - 21/01/2022 14:04:58
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Replying To gatha: "How much does an inter county ref get for match?" Expenses. Not a lot. The All Ireland Final ref gets two night in the Castleknock Hotel for himself and his partner, grub and a few drinks. The top job for the year and for the entire career for some of them.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7345 - 21/01/2022 14:18:34
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