National Forum

Wexford Proposal

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Replying To fearcliste:  "
Replying To Pikeman96:  "Seems there'd be no promotion for the Junior winners under that system?

Probably have to tweak things along the lines of top seven in Intermediate 'A' plus the Junior winners going up to Intermediate. Bottom five in Intermediate 'A' drop back to Junior.

Still also have to get Junior 'A' up to 16 teams. Suppose you could do this by promoting the four District winners from Junior 'B'."
Lads will you get real here - theres no way the clubs or anyone are going to agree to a restructuring like this at the stroke of a pen. Clubs want to earn their promotion by winning and be relegated as of right.
If you want to get three rounds with no one sitting out any round look at my earlier post It will work just fine. Besides this is not the year for any major restructure coming off the uncertainty of the past two years. Let things settle down a bit an see if a major restructuring is needed.
Its funny when you look at how championships (senior) develop over the years - about 5/6 years ago there were only 2/3 teams with a realistic chance of winning the hurling championship now i would say it might be one of 7/8. and in football about 5/6 years ago i would say that any one of 9/10 teams could have won it but now i would say that number is down to 3/4. So I dont think that whether there is 12 or 16 teams in a championship has a major bearing on that. Though I would naturally think that the smaller number leads to less mis-matches in the various grades."
Teams will earn the right. The 4 semi finalists in Intermediate this year will know at the start of this year that by reaching the semifinals they will get promoted to senior. Likewise all the Intermediate A clubs will know many months before the Championship throws in that reaching the Quarter finals will earn them Intermediate status.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3460 - 07/01/2022 17:03:26    2394001

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Replying To Viking66:  "Also I dont think a 16 team or 12 team format makes any difference to how many teams are in with a realistic shout of winning the Senior championship in either code."
I beg to differ. Mathematically speaking, if there are 12 teams in one grade, and ten of them are competitive, adding four more is only going to make the relegation section more of a lottery. Even when the sixteen-team format was in most recently, there were more mediocre and poor teams just hoping to win one game and thus stay up than there were upstarts looking to upset the apple-cart. I think the competitiveness of the championships, senior hurling especially, have been revitalised by reducing the number of competitors to twelve.

It's a bit like the European Football Championships- it's too condensed now with teams making up the numbers compared to it's earlier iteration of having sixteen teams at more or less an equal footing.

beano (Wexford) - Posts: 994 - 07/01/2022 21:30:44    2394037

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Replying To beano:  "I beg to differ. Mathematically speaking, if there are 12 teams in one grade, and ten of them are competitive, adding four more is only going to make the relegation section more of a lottery. Even when the sixteen-team format was in most recently, there were more mediocre and poor teams just hoping to win one game and thus stay up than there were upstarts looking to upset the apple-cart. I think the competitiveness of the championships, senior hurling especially, have been revitalised by reducing the number of competitors to twelve.

It's a bit like the European Football Championships- it's too condensed now with teams making up the numbers compared to it's earlier iteration of having sixteen teams at more or less an equal footing."
My proposal isnt just about making the championship more competitive in football or hurling at the very top. Whether theres 10, 12, 16 or 20 teams there will only be 6 or 8 who would have a good chance of winning it in any given year and that's if we are very lucky. Historically that's always been the case. Clubs cant sign players so winning out does depend on getting a good crop of good players all at the same time. Not easy. What a16 team format should do is give more players at more different clubs more chances to play against better opponents which should improve their indevidual hurling or football on one hand and motivate them to try to get fitter and hone their skills more to match these better opponents on the other hand.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3460 - 08/01/2022 14:17:17    2394092

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Replying To beano:  "I beg to differ. Mathematically speaking, if there are 12 teams in one grade, and ten of them are competitive, adding four more is only going to make the relegation section more of a lottery. Even when the sixteen-team format was in most recently, there were more mediocre and poor teams just hoping to win one game and thus stay up than there were upstarts looking to upset the apple-cart. I think the competitiveness of the championships, senior hurling especially, have been revitalised by reducing the number of competitors to twelve.

It's a bit like the European Football Championships- it's too condensed now with teams making up the numbers compared to it's earlier iteration of having sixteen teams at more or less an equal footing."
My proposal isnt just about making the championship more competitive in football or hurling at the very top. Whether theres 10, 12, 16 or 20 teams there will only be 6 or 8 who would have a good chance of winning it in any given year and that's if we are very lucky. Historically that's always been the case. Clubs cant sign players so winning out does depend on getting a good crop of good players all at the same time. Not easy. What a16 team format should do is give more players at more different clubs more chances to play against better opponents which should improve their indevidual hurling or football on one hand and motivate them to try to get fitter and hone their skills more to match these better opponents on the other hand.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3460 - 08/01/2022 14:17:31    2394093

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Replying To beano:  "I beg to differ. Mathematically speaking, if there are 12 teams in one grade, and ten of them are competitive, adding four more is only going to make the relegation section more of a lottery. Even when the sixteen-team format was in most recently, there were more mediocre and poor teams just hoping to win one game and thus stay up than there were upstarts looking to upset the apple-cart. I think the competitiveness of the championships, senior hurling especially, have been revitalised by reducing the number of competitors to twelve.

It's a bit like the European Football Championships- it's too condensed now with teams making up the numbers compared to it's earlier iteration of having sixteen teams at more or less an equal footing."
I agree with beano here. My own "home" club (not the one I'm involved with now, since I ended up moving to a different part of the county) were senior in both codes for close on 30 years when there usually used to be 16 in the grade. In one code in particular, it was generally by finishing 14th or 15th best in any given year. When senior was reduced to 12, they rapidly went down, and in all fairness and no disrespect to anyone, they're still a long way from being "a senior club".

Even reaching an intermediate final a few years ago, it was clear they wouldn't make a good senior club. The team that beat them there was relegated again a year or two afterwards, and hasn't been back in senior since then either.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 794 - 08/01/2022 21:32:55    2394149

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "I agree with beano here. My own "home" club (not the one I'm involved with now, since I ended up moving to a different part of the county) were senior in both codes for close on 30 years when there usually used to be 16 in the grade. In one code in particular, it was generally by finishing 14th or 15th best in any given year. When senior was reduced to 12, they rapidly went down, and in all fairness and no disrespect to anyone, they're still a long way from being "a senior club".

Even reaching an intermediate final a few years ago, it was clear they wouldn't make a good senior club. The team that beat them there was relegated again a year or two afterwards, and hasn't been back in senior since then either."
There will always be yoyo clubs Pikeman. At least with a 16 team format instead of 1 or 2 clubs nailed on to go down every year there will be a better chance of them staying up for a few years. This will additionally motivate all of the weaker clubs to try harder as they will have a better chance of staying up. Thereby incentivising them to get better which will hopefully have the knock on effect of these clubs closing the gap on the very top ones. And that following on down through Intermediate and Junior. Obviously it does depend on good players coming up from underage but at least it might encourage lads to stick at their football or hurling into adulthood if they see their club improving year on year by retaining their status be it Senior or Intermediate.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3460 - 09/01/2022 12:07:19    2394173

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So are there any actual new proposals that could be looked at this year? the discussion as usual has gone on a tangent on the merits of 12 V 16 in each grade none of which is relevant to the original point - Proposals to be submitted by Friday i believe.

fearcliste (Wexford) - Posts: 173 - 11/01/2022 11:48:32    2394507

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Championships should be left at 12. Keeps them competitive. The clubs looking to make them 16 are clubs not good enough to win the actual championship they are in or have got relegated eg. Fethard considering proposing 16 teams.

countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 52 - 11/01/2022 13:27:52    2394520

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Replying To countyman2022:  "Championships should be left at 12. Keeps them competitive. The clubs looking to make them 16 are clubs not good enough to win the actual championship they are in or have got relegated eg. Fethard considering proposing 16 teams."
Fethard will be among the favourites this year I'd imagine. The bottom 6 or 7 in hurling and the bottom 2 or 3 in Football under the current 12 team set up at Senior are not likely to win Senior. So if you want it to be truly competitive you would be better with 8 team grades. A move back to 16 teams will give more competitive games to the teams who arent likely to win their grade out. So in fact you will have more competitive games not less.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3460 - 11/01/2022 16:50:09    2394554

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Replying To countyman2022:  "Championships should be left at 12. Keeps them competitive. The clubs looking to make them 16 are clubs not good enough to win the actual championship they are in or have got relegated eg. Fethard considering proposing 16 teams."
I agree re keeping them at 12. Whatever about the actual overall quality of the championship, one thing for sure is we have a seriously competitive championship. I think we are in a position where realistically there will be 4/5 clubs giving themselves a great chance of winning a Senior championship, while another 2/3 in Senior will know that if things go right and they find themselves going well later in the year that they can beat almost any team in the championship on a given day. That is the guts of 7/8 teams with a possibility of winning a county championship. There will always be 2/3 teams in every county who have no real hope of winning a championship but can hold their own and beat teams a level above them. For example, I believe at present a team like Rathnure are not at the level to win the Senior Championship in Wexford, but on their day they are more than capable of beating teams say like Glynn Barntown who I would say on their day could actually win a championship as they are well capable of beating a team like ST Martins or Rapps or Shells. I think this is what makes our 12 team grades really competitive.

I think Intermediate is the same. If you put last years 4 semi-finalists of Oylegate, St James, Askamore and Bunclody in with some of the relegation teams of Oulart, Fethard, Crossabeg, Cloughbawn (taking out St Martins here as they would be simply too strong) I believe they would all take points off each other in a group. Yes St James, Askamore and Bunclody would be that little bit weaker I am still confident they would beat some of the senior teams. But if those three teams were to play the Rapps, Shells, Gorey, Glynn, St Martins I dont think they would get near them and as a result would create one-sided games and dilute the quality of the competition.

Let the intermediate competition stay at 12 teams. If your good enough you will come up and earn the right to stay senior.

BostonRedSox (Wexford) - Posts: 83 - 11/01/2022 17:50:00    2394558

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So they realised the proposals last night. The county issued there proposal and then a few others. Most proposals are for keeping the groups of 3. The county board want to keep 4 groups of 3 but with one change, if you finish 2nd you play the teams that finish second to qualify for for a quarter final while if you finish 3rd you play the teams that finish third. The loser of the 3rd place preliminary games go to relegation. I suppose it gives more incentive to finish 2nd that you dont have the threat of relegation.

Also they want to run a U19 competition at the same time as the adult championship so if its hurling, the U19 hurling. This would run mid week depending on when your team is playing, I think this is a good idea provided it is run correctly and I know some players could be playing two games in a week but I think most underage players should be able for this.

Kilrush, Oulart and Harriers want to return to groups of 6, the later two is hardly surprising, Oulart to run the football and hurling together again which is hardly surprising.

Ballyhogue had a slight variation on the four groups of three in that the Idle team in group A plays idle team in group B. Idle team in group C plays idle team in groups D, with these championship points to count.

The Alley proposal is slightly more complicated, with three groups of 4, with strongest and weakest tams in each group going to preliminary quarters.

All the proposals wnat the two groups of 6 for the league and to return to dividing the leagues on teams you dont play in championships, instead of last year i.e, playing senior and intermediate together.

Craanford had proposals not so much championship but how the grading etc was done, and also about the timing of matches, ie district final not to be played before Intermediate a quarters. They also made a proposal about a 'senior player' be allowed to play junior b after lining out for the senior team in three games as it was his first year playing adult. This rule change is a good idea but might be too complicated.

Lots of good proposals, my own preference is the two groups of 6 and I definitely like the idea of the U19 championship running the same time as the hurling. They are meeting on Thursday again to discuss, so interested to see what other peoples thoughts are.

alwaysasub (Wexford) - Posts: 230 - 19/01/2022 09:22:52    2395527

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Replying To alwaysasub:  "So they realised the proposals last night. The county issued there proposal and then a few others. Most proposals are for keeping the groups of 3. The county board want to keep 4 groups of 3 but with one change, if you finish 2nd you play the teams that finish second to qualify for for a quarter final while if you finish 3rd you play the teams that finish third. The loser of the 3rd place preliminary games go to relegation. I suppose it gives more incentive to finish 2nd that you dont have the threat of relegation.

Also they want to run a U19 competition at the same time as the adult championship so if its hurling, the U19 hurling. This would run mid week depending on when your team is playing, I think this is a good idea provided it is run correctly and I know some players could be playing two games in a week but I think most underage players should be able for this.

Kilrush, Oulart and Harriers want to return to groups of 6, the later two is hardly surprising, Oulart to run the football and hurling together again which is hardly surprising.

Ballyhogue had a slight variation on the four groups of three in that the Idle team in group A plays idle team in group B. Idle team in group C plays idle team in groups D, with these championship points to count.

The Alley proposal is slightly more complicated, with three groups of 4, with strongest and weakest tams in each group going to preliminary quarters.

All the proposals wnat the two groups of 6 for the league and to return to dividing the leagues on teams you dont play in championships, instead of last year i.e, playing senior and intermediate together.

Craanford had proposals not so much championship but how the grading etc was done, and also about the timing of matches, ie district final not to be played before Intermediate a quarters. They also made a proposal about a 'senior player' be allowed to play junior b after lining out for the senior team in three games as it was his first year playing adult. This rule change is a good idea but might be too complicated.

Lots of good proposals, my own preference is the two groups of 6 and I definitely like the idea of the U19 championship running the same time as the hurling. They are meeting on Thursday again to discuss, so interested to see what other peoples thoughts are."
Think the under 19 proposal is a good idea. Would still rather 4 groups of 4 for the Championship though.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3460 - 19/01/2022 10:35:26    2395548

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