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Replying To galwayfball: "Zero issue with the suspensions for the 2 that got physical but why the f**k didn't you give us the mark? And "what the f**k ref" being listed as verbal abuse . Come on , that's ridiculous and I'd hear that at much less controversial decisions .
No way in those circumstances the ref could say for certain that 5 players definitely verbally abused him. I think he just looked at the picture. And the proposed suspensions for verbal abuse are way too long" No due process or fair procedures here for the MM players. Trial by media and by ref. Leaking of report very prejudicial. What he asserts as assault was handbags stuff. The "assaults" were a push from behind. Does the ref have eyes on the back of his head? A pity he didn't use such great eyesight to give MM fair play during the game. The ref should be called before the investigation committee and be required to fully explain his decisions and be subject to cross questioning before any MM player is thrown to the wolves. One would need to be a saint not to react to such unfair and provocative refereeing decisions that cost MM the match.
FatLadySinging (Galway) - Posts: 86 - 06/01/2022 21:22:40
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Someone should beheld to account for the leaking of the Refs report , only the Ref and who ever he sent it to should know whats in it till it is discussed at next meeting of relevant Committee dealing with Refs reports.
jacktheboy (Donegal) - Posts: 404 - 06/01/2022 21:28:24
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Replying To galwayfball: "Zero issue with the suspensions for the 2 that got physical but why the f**k didn't you give us the mark? And "what the f**k ref" being listed as verbal abuse . Come on , that's ridiculous and I'd hear that at much less controversial decisions .
No way in those circumstances the ref could say for certain that 5 players definitely verbally abused him. I think he just looked at the picture. And the proposed suspensions for verbal abuse are way too long" If he looked at the picture he surely wouldnt have named lads that werent even near him. Bad allegations and heavy suspensions for lads that abused. Really bad allegations against some lads suspended who werent even near him and did not say a word .
anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 840 - 06/01/2022 21:29:26
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Yeah making the verbal abuse hold up may be tricky.
A fella I know from Mountbellew who would be involved in the club reckons two of those named in the report weren't involved in the incident at all.
Agreed though - reporting a fella for saying "what the f*ck ref" I mean come on ffs
galwayman2 (Galway) - Posts: 1237 - 07/01/2022 09:23:59
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Replying To FatLadySinging: "No due process or fair procedures here for the MM players. Trial by media and by ref. Leaking of report very prejudicial. What he asserts as assault was handbags stuff. The "assaults" were a push from behind. Does the ref have eyes on the back of his head? A pity he didn't use such great eyesight to give MM fair play during the game. The ref should be called before the investigation committee and be required to fully explain his decisions and be subject to cross questioning before any MM player is thrown to the wolves. One would need to be a saint not to react to such unfair and provocative refereeing decisions that cost MM the match." That's assault. There's a video and its clear as day it was a shoulder to the back and even if it had just been a push it's still assault. Never put your hands on the ref end of. No you don't need to be a saint to not react that way to those decisions as proven by the other panel members who didn't get physical with the ref, some of whom actually had to diffuse the situation.
galwayfball (Galway) - Posts: 1678 - 07/01/2022 11:53:46
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Replying To FatLadySinging: "No due process or fair procedures here for the MM players. Trial by media and by ref. Leaking of report very prejudicial. What he asserts as assault was handbags stuff. The "assaults" were a push from behind. Does the ref have eyes on the back of his head? A pity he didn't use such great eyesight to give MM fair play during the game. The ref should be called before the investigation committee and be required to fully explain his decisions and be subject to cross questioning before any MM player is thrown to the wolves. One would need to be a saint not to react to such unfair and provocative refereeing decisions that cost MM the match." That's assault. There's a video and its clear as day it was a shoulder to the back and even if it had just been a push it's still assault. Never put your hands on the ref end of. No you don't need to be a saint to not react that way to those decisions as proven by the other panel members who didn't get physical with the ref, some of whom actually had to diffuse the situation.
galwayfball (Galway) - Posts: 1678 - 07/01/2022 11:53:47
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Replying To FatLadySinging: "No due process or fair procedures here for the MM players. Trial by media and by ref. Leaking of report very prejudicial. What he asserts as assault was handbags stuff. The "assaults" were a push from behind. Does the ref have eyes on the back of his head? A pity he didn't use such great eyesight to give MM fair play during the game. The ref should be called before the investigation committee and be required to fully explain his decisions and be subject to cross questioning before any MM player is thrown to the wolves. One would need to be a saint not to react to such unfair and provocative refereeing decisions that cost MM the match." Did you see the video. It wasnt handbags. you dont touch a match official. in any circumstances.
disgraceful post from you
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3499 - 07/01/2022 12:12:01
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Replying To galwayfball: "That's assault. There's a video and its clear as day it was a shoulder to the back and even if it had just been a push it's still assault. Never put your hands on the ref end of. No you don't need to be a saint to not react that way to those decisions as proven by the other panel members who didn't get physical with the ref, some of whom actually had to diffuse the situation." What I don't understand is that if it was assault why didnt he go to guards about it?
Michaelcusack2022 (Galway) - Posts: 11 - 07/01/2022 13:14:18
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Replying To KillingFields: "I've seen numerous people say that because some M/M players were completely out of order, that we can't talk about the standard of refereeing. That's complete nonsense, and why I'm saying it's a separate issue. How will the standard of refereeing improve in general if referees aren't accountable for very poor errors?
A player performing poorly will be dropped. A good manager will give him feedback on why he was dropped, where he needs to improve, what he needs to learn etc.
Saying refs are human and make mistakes doesn't address specifics at all. Every ref will make plenty mistakes during a game. That's a given.
The issue is with the very clear mistakes and those which are critical. We never want to have a 2010 Leinster Final incident again. Someone above mentioned the issue is with the mark rule itself.
That's also nonsense. If a ref doesn't know the rules, especially one which has been so publicised, then it's a serious problem.
We had an incident of a ref not knowing a rule, when Kerry got a late goal to draw with Monaghan in 2018. The Monaghan player was penalised for playing the ball on the ground. In what was the last play, Kerry got possession from the free and worked a goal. The Monaghan player was entitled to play the ball as it happened, but the ref didn't know. These issues need to be tightened up.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1209 - 05/01/2022 10:42:15
going on about making refs accountable is exactly why there is constantly incidents in the GAA with referees being chased/assaulted/abused.
Refs are accountable already but the process in which they are trained and how they learn and develop needs to be improved. Refs can make mistakes even on big issues/common rules. Main learning is that they dont make that mistake again and that comes from reviews with referee development officers/full time staff working solely with referees to coach and develop refs within a county.
How exactly would you tighten up these issues?" One element of accountability would come from not giving high profile games to ref's shortly after they've made big mistakes or had very poor performances. Maurice Deegan made a high profile error in the All-Ireland final replay in 2016. He followed that with a very poor performance in the All-Ireland club final in 2017. Then showed he didn't know the rules at a critical stage in the Super 8s of 2018 between Monaghan and Kerry. This isn't a dig at Deegan, but an example of ref grading failure.
Referees need as much as help and support as they can get. That includes proper accountability for performances. This will benefit everyone.
To tie this to the other thread, no the assessments should not be made public. I don't see how that would help. But it's clear the process needs big improvement.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2037 - 08/01/2022 09:23:25
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One element of accountability would come from not giving high profile games to ref's shortly after they've made big mistakes or had very poor performances. Maurice Deegan made a high profile error in the All-Ireland final replay in 2016. He followed that with a very poor performance in the All-Ireland club final in 2017. Then showed he didn't know the rules at a critical stage in the Super 8s of 2018 between Monaghan and Kerry. This isn't a dig at Deegan, but an example of ref grading failure.
Referees need as much as help and support as they can get. That includes proper accountability for performances. This will benefit everyone.
To tie this to the other thread, no the assessments should not be made public. I don't see how that would help. But it's clear the process needs big improvement.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1212 - 08/01/2022 09:23:25
You just suggest refs be punished for making mistakes saying its proper accountability for performances but suggest nothing else other than removing refs from games if they make mistakes. there has to be more done than that as just dropping a ref from games the following week or weeks doesnt mean they learn from a mistake made
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3499 - 08/01/2022 13:17:16
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Replying To KillingFields: "One element of accountability would come from not giving high profile games to ref's shortly after they've made big mistakes or had very poor performances. Maurice Deegan made a high profile error in the All-Ireland final replay in 2016. He followed that with a very poor performance in the All-Ireland club final in 2017. Then showed he didn't know the rules at a critical stage in the Super 8s of 2018 between Monaghan and Kerry. This isn't a dig at Deegan, but an example of ref grading failure.
Referees need as much as help and support as they can get. That includes proper accountability for performances. This will benefit everyone.
To tie this to the other thread, no the assessments should not be made public. I don't see how that would help. But it's clear the process needs big improvement.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1212 - 08/01/2022 09:23:25
You just suggest refs be punished for making mistakes saying its proper accountability for performances but suggest nothing else other than removing refs from games if they make mistakes. there has to be more done than that as just dropping a ref from games the following week or weeks doesnt mean they learn from a mistake made" Referees don't lose anything apart from loss of "refereeing reputation" as a consequence of making serious mistakes such as in the case of Mountbellew-Moylough or indeed the infamous Louth defeat by Meath in the Leinster final which was especially heartbreaking. On the other hand, the players lose an awful lot due to refereeing incompetence. It was the one and only chance Louth had of winning a Leinster title. MM have suffered a lot of heartbreak in the Galway championship over the last 6 or 7 years. They were primed to make a major go at winning the All Ireland title. Many of their players who have made huge personal sacrifices, may never get another such opportunity. To be beaten fair and square by a better team can be accepted no problem. To be beaten by the referee is a much different matter. The players are human. It was right
and proper that they should register their objections and protest to the referee when the match was over. The referee can walk away answerable and accountable to no one. The players meanwhile plumb the depths of dispair -- and bizarrely get punished for the referee's incompetence. There is no fairness in this for dedicated amateur players who put their hearts into the game.
FatLadySinging (Galway) - Posts: 86 - 08/01/2022 14:13:09
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I take it you are a mm supporter..you can't possibly say it was right for players to push and shove the ref on the day..it was not a good sight and and wasn't a great example for younger followers..no player has any right to lay hands on an official..
CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 2208 - 08/01/2022 18:02:33
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What they did after the game was not right and proper
SeanMacDiarmada (Leitrim) - Posts: 395 - 08/01/2022 18:18:44
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Replying To KillingFields: "One element of accountability would come from not giving high profile games to ref's shortly after they've made big mistakes or had very poor performances. Maurice Deegan made a high profile error in the All-Ireland final replay in 2016. He followed that with a very poor performance in the All-Ireland club final in 2017. Then showed he didn't know the rules at a critical stage in the Super 8s of 2018 between Monaghan and Kerry. This isn't a dig at Deegan, but an example of ref grading failure.
Referees need as much as help and support as they can get. That includes proper accountability for performances. This will benefit everyone.
To tie this to the other thread, no the assessments should not be made public. I don't see how that would help. But it's clear the process needs big improvement.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1212 - 08/01/2022 09:23:25
You just suggest refs be punished for making mistakes saying its proper accountability for performances but suggest nothing else other than removing refs from games if they make mistakes. there has to be more done than that as just dropping a ref from games the following week or weeks doesnt mean they learn from a mistake made" You've clearly ignored my other post, where I said refs need to get constant feedback and be told where they need to improve, after poor performances. That's the most important aspect. Regrading them based on performance isn't 'punishment', it should be part of the improvement process. It's the same as a player getting dropped for below par performances. He needs guidance on what to work on.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2037 - 08/01/2022 18:18:47
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Replying To FatLadySinging: " Replying To KillingFields: "One element of accountability would come from not giving high profile games to ref's shortly after they've made big mistakes or had very poor performances. Maurice Deegan made a high profile error in the All-Ireland final replay in 2016. He followed that with a very poor performance in the All-Ireland club final in 2017. Then showed he didn't know the rules at a critical stage in the Super 8s of 2018 between Monaghan and Kerry. This isn't a dig at Deegan, but an example of ref grading failure.
Referees need as much as help and support as they can get. That includes proper accountability for performances. This will benefit everyone.
To tie this to the other thread, no the assessments should not be made public. I don't see how that would help. But it's clear the process needs big improvement.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1212 - 08/01/2022 09:23:25
You just suggest refs be punished for making mistakes saying its proper accountability for performances but suggest nothing else other than removing refs from games if they make mistakes. there has to be more done than that as just dropping a ref from games the following week or weeks doesnt mean they learn from a mistake made" Referees don't lose anything apart from loss of "refereeing reputation" as a consequence of making serious mistakes such as in the case of Mountbellew-Moylough or indeed the infamous Louth defeat by Meath in the Leinster final which was especially heartbreaking. On the other hand, the players lose an awful lot due to refereeing incompetence. It was the one and only chance Louth had of winning a Leinster title. MM have suffered a lot of heartbreak in the Galway championship over the last 6 or 7 years. They were primed to make a major go at winning the All Ireland title. Many of their players who have made huge personal sacrifices, may never get another such opportunity. To be beaten fair and square by a better team can be accepted no problem. To be beaten by the referee is a much different matter. The players are human. It was right and proper that they should register their objections and protest to the referee when the match was over. The referee can walk away answerable and accountable to no one. The players meanwhile plumb the depths of dispair -- and bizarrely get punished for the referee's incompetence. There is no fairness in this for dedicated amateur players who put their hearts into the game."
I don't believe for a second that any ref goes out to cheat any team. Yes he may make an error. Let's play the percentage game if we are to assume games are lost over mistakes. What percentage is lost by referee error as opposed to player error ? Would 5% to 95% or less be accurate in favour of officiating? What percentage of questioned decisions are made by the man in the middle as opposed to input from other officials? At times he may not have any vision for what occurred at all.
Now lets do a hypothetical. The goalie takes a short kick or puck out right into the hand of the opposition who puts it in the back of the net. His team is beaten by a goal. The ref misses a penalty call in the last minute. Which do you think will get the most oxygen from analysts, supporters etc.
The majority of the people who want the ref decision reviewed, only want the ones that effect their team reviewed. The really don't care if the opposition lose over a mistake, miscall etc. It was suggested that the players have invested so much (which they have) and the ref has nothing. You think?
I would be the first to say that the officiating (not just the ref) needs to be giving a higher profile with use of technology, and a more efficient team of officials to match the changes that has come in our games. Will there be mistake still ? Of course there will. When all other aspects of the game has zero mistakes then we can demand the same from officiating. The GAA has hung the refs out to dry with rules that can not be enforced and controlling a game that has moved on to another level. I suspect it is just not fashionable or head line catching to giving them a status compared to the other participants.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2655 - 15/01/2022 16:55:36
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Replying To Canuck: " Replying To FatLadySinging: "[quote=KillingFields: "One element of accountability would come from not giving high profile games to ref's shortly after they've made big mistakes or had very poor performances. Maurice Deegan made a high profile error in the All-Ireland final replay in 2016. He followed that with a very poor performance in the All-Ireland club final in 2017. Then showed he didn't know the rules at a critical stage in the Super 8s of 2018 between Monaghan and Kerry. This isn't a dig at Deegan, but an example of ref grading failure.
Referees need as much as help and support as they can get. That includes proper accountability for performances. This will benefit everyone.
To tie this to the other thread, no the assessments should not be made public. I don't see how that would help. But it's clear the process needs big improvement.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1212 - 08/01/2022 09:23:25
You just suggest refs be punished for making mistakes saying its proper accountability for performances but suggest nothing else other than removing refs from games if they make mistakes. there has to be more done than that as just dropping a ref from games the following week or weeks doesnt mean they learn from a mistake made" Referees don't lose anything apart from loss of "refereeing reputation" as a consequence of making serious mistakes such as in the case of Mountbellew-Moylough or indeed the infamous Louth defeat by Meath in the Leinster final which was especially heartbreaking. On the other hand, the players lose an awful lot due to refereeing incompetence. It was the one and only chance Louth had of winning a Leinster title. MM have suffered a lot of heartbreak in the Galway championship over the last 6 or 7 years. They were primed to make a major go at winning the All Ireland title. Many of their players who have made huge personal sacrifices, may never get another such opportunity. To be beaten fair and square by a better team can be accepted no problem. To be beaten by the referee is a much different matter. The players are human. It was right and proper that they should register their objections and protest to the referee when the match was over. The referee can walk away answerable and accountable to no one. The players meanwhile plumb the depths of dispair -- and bizarrely get punished for the referee's incompetence. There is no fairness in this for dedicated amateur players who put their hearts into the game."
I don't believe for a second that any ref goes out to cheat any team. Yes he may make an error. Let's play the percentage game if we are to assume games are lost over mistakes. What percentage is lost by referee error as opposed to player error ? Would 5% to 95% or less be accurate in favour of officiating? What percentage of questioned decisions are made by the man in the middle as opposed to input from other officials? At times he may not have any vision for what occurred at all.
Now lets do a hypothetical. The goalie takes a short kick or puck out right into the hand of the opposition who puts it in the back of the net. His team is beaten by a goal. The ref misses a penalty call in the last minute. Which do you think will get the most oxygen from analysts, supporters etc.
The majority of the people who want the ref decision reviewed, only want the ones that effect their team reviewed. The really don't care if the opposition lose over a mistake, miscall etc. It was suggested that the players have invested so much (which they have) and the ref has nothing. You think?
I would be the first to say that the officiating (not just the ref) needs to be giving a higher profile with use of technology, and a more efficient team of officials to match the changes that has come in our games. Will there be mistake still ? Of course there will. When all other aspects of the game has zero mistakes then we can demand the same from officiating. The GAA has hung the refs out to dry with rules that can not be enforced and controlling a game that has moved on to another level. I suspect it is just not fashionable or head line catching to giving them a status compared to the other participants."]If the referee does not know the rule for the mark and fails to award a clear mark that would have won the game, there are far more questions for the referee to answer than the players who are unjustly deprived of victory by sheer incompetence. Let's just say it would not happen in rugby or soccer.
FatLadySinging (Galway) - Posts: 86 - 15/01/2022 19:09:47
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A "mark" won't win you a game, you still have to kick it between the posts.
In this hypothetical game Pearses would still have kicked an equaliser.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1404 - 16/01/2022 12:05:33
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "A "mark" won't win you a game, you still have to kick it between the posts.
In this hypothetical game Pearses would still have kicked an equaliser." It wasnt just the mark though. There was a 5 minute period towards the end where the ref blaggarded MM
sourmilk93 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1144 - 16/01/2022 13:47:19
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