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Replying To TrueBlue35: "Hard to argue with any of that Username. I think we showed enough to prove we are capable of doing something but again (and I don't like to keep harping back to it!) Dessie on the line looked out of his depth. First half we were wide open at the back and down to 14 men but still didn't drop someone to sit in front of the full back line. You're asking for trouble letting that happen. You would hope the re-introduction of Con (heard he has an ankle knock so not sure when he will be back), McCarthy, Cooper and Fitzsimons will give us an immediate lift and then throw in Costello and perhaps Paddy Small into the forwards and you're already looking at a far stronger team on paper. Crucially all of them are used to playing with each other so there won't be a lack of cohesion as we've seen in the last two games.
I think with the rest of the country absolutely wallowing in our apparent demise that you'd hope a long hard look at ourselves is happening as we speak. I do think we could do with more of a disciplined manager at the moment and one that is prepared to sacrifice a bit in terms of his own tactical beliefs in order to set up in a way that gets the most from the players at his disposal. Under Gavin standards were driven by the players and now quite simply there are a few lads in there that are not at that elite level I think. The main lads know they're undroppable and even standards slipping by a few percent has a big ripple effect. Would I prefer someone else in charge? Yes but not because Dessie is awful, I just don't think the timing is good for him and his style. In another era he could have been perfect but we need someone a bit more flexible in their thinking and as I say willing to change things up to suit the players he has in order to win." P.S. think King Con, C Basquel and McCarthy got injured in the challenge game VS Roscommon - same day we beat Laois in the OBC pal.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 08/02/2022 11:53:36
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Replying To TheUsername: "P.S. think King Con, C Basquel and McCarthy got injured in the challenge game VS Roscommon - same day we beat Laois in the OBC pal." Yeah all very true Username and I think the comparison with Gavin in 2015 is a great one. Dessie is getting this year to see what he can do, the last 3 games have been a tough watch but you'd have to hope at this stage that the penny has dropped and he realises he has to adapt given what opposition teams are doing to us. We are fast losing that all blacks type aura that we had during the 6 in a row and that is giving other counties a huge sense of belief that all of a sudden the All-Ireland has been blown wide open. The one comfort I have is that the likes of McCarthy, Cooper, Fitzy, Fenton, King Con to name but a few are serial winners so they have to be hurting with what has been going on since the Mayo defeat last year. I think we all probably have to take a step back and assess things once we have a full deck to choose from again and hopefully we are not staring down the barrel of relegation before that happens. I've heard Collie B is gone from the panel now which is a shame as I think he has something different about him and it was shaping up to be a big "point to prove" type season for him. I do think though we will be having a different conversation in few of weeks' time with JC, Fitzy, Jimmy Mc and Con back…here's hoping anyway!!
TrueBlue35 (Dublin) - Posts: 206 - 08/02/2022 14:56:53
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Replying To TheUsername: "Well now Wet & dirty night in Tralee , big numbers of Kerry support, sensing a bit of blood in the water - not unjustifiably so after our performance last week and really the last year and a half. End of the world stuff in terms of conditions, stinging persistent rain, you could forget about avoiding behind the goal with the wind howling. Thus the Dubs rocked up to town.
Game started out fairly even, Dublin much improved to my eye that bit more fluent and coherent - I'm beginning to think they are doing huge blocks of conditioning as they seemed to be moving that bit better than last week, but you could see the young lads struggle a bit - maybe not used to it.
Bar David Moran Kerry weren't a kick up the back side away of what you'd expect their championship 15 to be. The Dubs still missing a fair few gave youth and inexperience a bit of a fling. Nip and tuck, with Dublin coughing loads of space in front of the backline again, felt we gave away chances we generally wouldn't with Copper and Fitz in the backline. That said felt we could impose ourselves on Kerry make could them retreat and it wasn't much of hassle getting between and behind their lines, they are still not great at the back.
Ref in my opinion and he has history, set his stall out early, that it would be a long hard night decision wise, with early frees harshly given to Kerry to set a foundation, while we found them hard to come by, the game went continued that way. Missed peno and all.
Turning point of the game was our disallowed goal, we were making hay, felt momentum was with us, we were beginning to hurt them, if the goal stood felt we would have kicked on and the Kerry mentality would have been asked a question. Instead the umpire brought the refs attention to a fairly routine block by McMahon, despite the ref not seeing it, he disallowed the goal and gave Scully a black card who was a mile away from the incident. Mad stuff, it's indicative of the vision of the incident that they gave the wrong man the line.
Down to 14, we struggled with numbers and had to compensate in lines, during this disruption Kerry capitalised and kicked on. Another poor decision in my opinion hurt us, what looked a line ball for Dublin was given to Kerry that resulted in a well taken goal.
With Dublin down to 14 on the wrong end of decisions and missing players Kerry racked up a score as we headed to the break.
The lead was always going to be hard to surmount given the context, while Kerry were content enough just to keep us at arms length and so the game finished out with us just ticking over what we could - think at the end the difference was 7 points, which is the balance of our disallowed goal, sideline ball and what looked a bad decision from behind the a goal of a point that went over and called wide in the second half. Different ref on a different night I think we get a result. But nothing won in Spring.
Be very surprised to see either team win an All Ireland this year, Kerry I think are still struggling from 9 back, you can hurt them without question. Very reliant on Clifford, while a wonderful player I think they need, more diversity from an attacking point of view.
As for us. Tactically, it's clear to me we need a sweeper, Rian last week and Clifford last night cleaned up getting out in front of our defensive line in space, a sweeper and we are cutting out 75% of what we're conceding at the mo.
Our forward line at the moment is very poor, the weakest part of the team last week and this week once we get in behind we are frustrating in terms of finishing. Trying to be to clever and it's is also leading to danger at the breakdown, we left chances begging their last night for goals and points. You have to hope with the return of Con, Costello, Small, Basquel etc - we can be more incisive.
Else-wise, thought Howard was magnificent, Davy Byrne much improved, Even great, Fenton is in the poorest run of form of hisDublin career. Bugler very good to - fine against the Kerrys of this world, but I'd have Howard in the Half forward line against your Mayos and Tyrones.
Ultimately though it's was a Dublin team which was very inexperienced in key areas playing against a Kerry team at full strength.
Yet I'd suggest the only way we can build and get back to a decent level of panel strength be challenging in the years ahead is to continue to give the young and inexperienced players like O Dell, Archer, Gannon, McGarry, Smith & McCormack etc a blooding in these scenarios of toughness . Some lads will hit the ground running, others will take time and some wont cut it, but it all need to be tried . It wont be pretty at times, but I think back to the startled earwig game - how many medals did that team finish with. Tonight a lot of young lads got experience.
I was actually happier with our attitude and performance last night then I was against Armagh. Despite the country licking their licks at our demise. :D We will look to our own, it's our way.
Right now it's about coming up with serious options for the Championship panel these lads have to be tried, but we know we have Fitzey, Cooper, Jamsie, King Con and a few other to come back to augment. Still have more than enough players to compete for the big trophies, if we're cleverer tactically, you do feel both teams last night will need a bit of luck to win Sam this year.
Overall, I'm far happier about last night than I was last week all in.
But we have a little matter of staying up to sort out so next up we welcome Mayo to the home of the 6 in a row - we owe them one! Can't wait.
As always,
Up The Dubs!" Excellent post. Dublin for sure didn't get the rub of the green and that's being charitable to Lane the ref.
Does anybody here know the rule he used to rub out Dublin's freaky goal.? The girl Cantwell anchoring T S Game seemed
to say he was correct without telling us what rule was used, and O Rourke and Fitzmaurice didn't disagree.
It was such a vital decision one would have expected these TV 'expert analysts' to at least quote the relevant rule, but I feel they are under instructions to never criticize referees.
Clifford's attempt at smothering John Small was sad to see, even if we know J.S. is no angel. Another ref would have
dealt with it differently.
No medals or cups given out in February but we'd love to know that Rule Number and how it 'should' be interpreted ?
JackMurphy (Cork) - Posts: 30 - 08/02/2022 17:21:43
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Replying To TrueBlue35: "Yeah all very true Username and I think the comparison with Gavin in 2015 is a great one. Dessie is getting this year to see what he can do, the last 3 games have been a tough watch but you'd have to hope at this stage that the penny has dropped and he realises he has to adapt given what opposition teams are doing to us. We are fast losing that all blacks type aura that we had during the 6 in a row and that is giving other counties a huge sense of belief that all of a sudden the All-Ireland has been blown wide open. The one comfort I have is that the likes of McCarthy, Cooper, Fitzy, Fenton, King Con to name but a few are serial winners so they have to be hurting with what has been going on since the Mayo defeat last year. I think we all probably have to take a step back and assess things once we have a full deck to choose from again and hopefully we are not staring down the barrel of relegation before that happens. I've heard Collie B is gone from the panel now which is a shame as I think he has something different about him and it was shaping up to be a big "point to prove" type season for him. I do think though we will be having a different conversation in few of weeks' time with JC, Fitzy, Jimmy Mc and Con back…here's hoping anyway!!" Anyone know why Con and JMc were listed as starting on Saturday afternoon? No doubt big boost when the regulars return. Not too be too pessimistic but JC, MD, JMC could be in their last year so I guess the new blood really has to be introduced now.
theduke66 (Dublin) - Posts: 334 - 08/02/2022 19:23:50
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A message for all genuine Dublin fans. The poster Kerry4sam 21 is a false poster. An imposter. He posted the exact post verbatum from a Kerry poster in Kerry s gaa forum. The persons post he copied has admitted that he is not "Kerry4sam 21" and wants this poster outed. Hoganstand moderators should be aware. Whatever about wums and multiple accounts this imposter tried to make some of us believe he was the same poster as a genuine sound person that posts in the Kerry gaa forum. Thank you.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3674 - 08/02/2022 21:24:17
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "A message for all genuine Dublin fans. The poster Kerry4sam 21 is a false poster. An imposter. He posted the exact post verbatum from a Kerry poster in Kerry s gaa forum. The persons post he copied has admitted that he is not "Kerry4sam 21" and wants this poster outed. Hoganstand moderators should be aware. Whatever about wums and multiple accounts this imposter tried to make some of us believe he was the same poster as a genuine sound person that posts in the Kerry gaa forum. Thank you." Fair play Mick
superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 09/02/2022 09:49:49
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Replying To superbluedub: "Fair play Mick" Thanks Superblue but it was actually Kingdomboy copped the poster first. It was only when he was quoting posts verbatum belonged to a member of Kerry home forum I copped. The poster in question has no account here.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3674 - 09/02/2022 11:42:17
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Replying To theduke66: "Anyone know why Con and JMc were listed as starting on Saturday afternoon? No doubt big boost when the regulars return. Not too be too pessimistic but JC, MD, JMC could be in their last year so I guess the new blood really has to be introduced now." I think now Dublin are really finding out who ate the biggest losses and the main men who were carrying them throughout the years. The trio you mention of course but also MDM and McManaman were hugely influential from bench while Mannion and Jack McCartney were unstoppable. I think Kilkenny aside, Dublin actually have no top performers at the moment. Fenton is having a mare and as controversial as it sounds, I believe he has been overated and only plays well when others are on top of their game. For me Mccarthy has been a far more influential player over the years. Howard while also a top player, is being played out of position.
winatallcost (Meath) - Posts: 508 - 10/02/2022 17:52:50
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Wonder will we see any Crokes lads get a run at the weekend, Cian O Connor impressed me in Crokes run, i know hes gotten a run before, remember being in Clones watching him under Jim and we were battered that day - but he looks to have matured and grown into himself since and playing in a line we could do with some bodies.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 14/02/2022 13:02:57
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Well now another soft night in the home of the six in a row, both in conditions and general play. So we welcomed The Mayo to Croker, who lets be honest have more then one score to settle with those raised on songs and stories and i dont think they will ever get tired on beating us. :D
Mea Culpa likely enjoyed the build up to the game a tad to much to deconstruct the game in massive detail, but ill give her a shot.
Both teams lined up with some of their gems and a decent spine, we had O Connors, Mullens, Keegans on show, while Fentons, Fitzy's Kilkennys were droping shapes for the Dubs. Both teams rocking fairly decent spines supported by relative young and inexperienced lads trying to play their way onto the panel.
Pretty greasy night with that hazy rain and prolonged rain that has you skidding and sliding and difficult to keep the ball in your paw.
First quarter was pretty nip and tuck, Mayo racing into a couple of points lead, thought the ref was being very kind to Dublin and we i think went ahead 3/2 up at one stage, both teams trading blows and showing well. As we went into the second quarter, a key turning point like down in Tralee was a very fortunate goal for Mayo that came back of the upright and hit Even on the back of the head and went in, bad luck but then you make your own luck in this game. That turned the temperature up a bit as we headed toward half time.
Dublin looked very frail and lacked any organisation at the back, again loads of ball and space to be gotten out in front of the back line and through the central channel, its so painfully obvious we need a sweeper and if we have a body there we arent conceding these silly scores teams are putting up against us. That said i fell the defence did well in the first quarter and i was watching it closely, however in the second quarter they wee at sea, men free, big gaping holes, lads not getting close enough, tracking runners, not winning ball, not accounting for the danger coming from the flanks etc. Bad stuff.
Indicative of this was the response to come back at Mayo as we headed to half time - nothing in it again, but woeful defending and decision making for my money by Davy Byrne and Even let Mayo in for another avoidable goal which Mayo supplemented with follow up point as headed into half time and a decent, yet not surmountable lead. Yet it was so avaoidable
Dublin did alright in the first half, defense let us down in the second quarter (again - what is it) but the performance was ok. Mayo played man to man in the first half and we were winning a fair share of the battles. Some of our play was over elaborate and some of our shot selection was poor leading to poor wides. Kilkenny tried and tried hard, but chances were being butchered. Niall Scully in particular trying to hard for my money. Though Darren McGarry looked bright.
Second half for me we were poor, looks like any attitude we had in the first half just evaporate. Seemed to me like we were going through the motions and content just to let the game play out, both teams to me seemed content enough the result and were happy to just let it peter out, Mayo went a bit more behind the ball in a zonal defensive system - that they looked to be trialing and really just picked us of on our inevitable breakdown or as we butchered chances.
So where does this leave us, ultimately the concern is we're not learning from game to game, particularly defensively, we are crying out for a sweeper on the evidence of the first three games, but also we need to look at how the defense is working as a unit because to me they look bereft of any organisation and defensive skill. That said we have a fully fit Cooper, Fitzy, Murch and maybe Jamsie to come back to the lines. Davey Byrne is never a full back and i worry we're destroying the confidence of the lad their when we might need him for the corner. Anyone know were Robbie McDaid is.....
Fenton looks off it and maybe without other key danger men, sides are happy to sacrifice a jersey just to stop him. Howard for me is magnificent, one of the best players in the country by a mile, one of our most naturally gifted since Dermo. Kilkenny brilliant, Scully trying to hard.
I know ive given out yards about our defense, but im very concerned about our forward and half forward line, we're not creating chances, goals, or getting supply into them and havent since 2020, we're creating very little. We can say we are missing lads - which we are but we are creating very little in terms of chances and anything we are is generally through luck rather expansive play. That concerns me and has done for a while.
So the only positive for me, is the blooding of new players, where i am at, is the championship starting team picks itself at the moment and these league games are just about creating options for the bench come the summer, with the hope of finding someone to break through. Its Dessies show until then and im prepared to give him the season and back him despite the avoidable concerns - to my mind i raise above. To be honest i dont really mind even we're relegated, be a bit of craic to play different teams and have different trips next year. I go back to the startled earwig team in 09 and look at how many medals those lads finished with, adversity is often the breeding ground to greatness - so we will keep her lit and look to our own and get behind it.
So next up we're down to Newbridge next well, wrap up well lads - one of the coldest places in the world and shel be a sell out.
As Alwyas,
Up The Dubs!!!!!
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 20/02/2022 12:40:51
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Replying To winatallcost: "I think now Dublin are really finding out who ate the biggest losses and the main men who were carrying them throughout the years. The trio you mention of course but also MDM and McManaman were hugely influential from bench while Mannion and Jack McCartney were unstoppable. I think Kilkenny aside, Dublin actually have no top performers at the moment. Fenton is having a mare and as controversial as it sounds, I believe he has been overated and only plays well when others are on top of their game. For me Mccarthy has been a far more influential player over the years. Howard while also a top player, is being played out of position." +1
kerry4sam21 (Kerry) - Posts: 103 - 21/02/2022 12:12:02
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Week in, week out same mistakes, same failing approach, no progression.
Dessie is going to fall on his sword with this style and approach he isn't for changing, book your holidays lads it's going to be a short summer.
Congrats to Ki,ladder, better and hungrier team won.
Some crowd in Newbridge fair play to all who made the trip, was a mucky cold day.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 27/02/2022 17:06:15
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Replying To TheUsername: "Week in, week out same mistakes, same failing approach, no progression.
Dessie is going to fall on his sword with this style and approach he isn't for changing, book your holidays lads it's going to be a short summer.
Congrats to Ki,ladder, better and hungrier team won.
Some crowd in Newbridge fair play to all who made the trip, was a mucky cold day." Did nt see game. I was in Inishkeen Monaghan but listening to radio on way home Dessie mentioned Dublin missed a few goal chances. Dublin need one or two stars back and quick. They need a win next game. 4 pou ts might keep them up but realistically they probably need 5 or 6 points, Worst case scenario Div 2 did nt do Mayo any harm last year.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3674 - 27/02/2022 19:24:58
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "Did nt see game. I was in Inishkeen Monaghan but listening to radio on way home Dessie mentioned Dublin missed a few goal chances. Dublin need one or two stars back and quick. They need a win next game. 4 pou ts might keep them up but realistically they probably need 5 or 6 points, Worst case scenario Div 2 did nt do Mayo any harm last year." Honestly i don't have one worry about being relegated Mick, it's a non issue, i actually would enjoy a year in Div 2, genuinely, just to play different teams, been mad for a trip down the pairc for a while and could handle a weekend in Galway, Clare or Derry. Might actually be the year for it, with the new Champ structure, we could be in an All Ireland Quarter at the end of March.
In all honesty, I have no hope nor expectation for the year, we have as good or better players then anyone, it's not the talent for me. It's the approach, tactics, game plan and philosophy. I know we're your coming from, you look at the squad all fit and say, Dublin are contenders - but the management team for a variety of reasons aren't getting the best out of our significant quality. Therefore I think we're Div 2 next year, - don't mind that all. But I think we're in for a short and damp squib if a summer.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 27/02/2022 20:35:27
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Replying To TheUsername: "Honestly i don't have one worry about being relegated Mick, it's a non issue, i actually would enjoy a year in Div 2, genuinely, just to play different teams, been mad for a trip down the pairc for a while and could handle a weekend in Galway, Clare or Derry. Might actually be the year for it, with the new Champ structure, we could be in an All Ireland Quarter at the end of March.
In all honesty, I have no hope nor expectation for the year, we have as good or better players then anyone, it's not the talent for me. It's the approach, tactics, game plan and philosophy. I know we're your coming from, you look at the squad all fit and say, Dublin are contenders - but the management team for a variety of reasons aren't getting the best out of our significant quality. Therefore I think we're Div 2 next year, - don't mind that all. But I think we're in for a short and damp squib if a summer." Yep. Getting relegated doesn't bother me, as it's the championship that really matters. But, yeah, 100% approach, game plan, tactics and philosophy are just not up to doing anything in the championship. The confidence visibly seeps out of the players during the matches these days. Looking forward to different away days next year, not looking forward to watching Farrell's charges this summer.
Gavvygavgav (Dublin) - Posts: 382 - 27/02/2022 21:52:40
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Replying To kerry4sam21: "+1" Cheers
superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 27/02/2022 22:03:31
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Replying To TheUsername: "Honestly i don't have one worry about being relegated Mick, it's a non issue, i actually would enjoy a year in Div 2, genuinely, just to play different teams, been mad for a trip down the pairc for a while and could handle a weekend in Galway, Clare or Derry. Might actually be the year for it, with the new Champ structure, we could be in an All Ireland Quarter at the end of March.
In all honesty, I have no hope nor expectation for the year, we have as good or better players then anyone, it's not the talent for me. It's the approach, tactics, game plan and philosophy. I know we're your coming from, you look at the squad all fit and say, Dublin are contenders - but the management team for a variety of reasons aren't getting the best out of our significant quality. Therefore I think we're Div 2 next year, - don't mind that all. But I think we're in for a short and damp squib if a summer." Oh I get what you re saying Username and its not the end of the world to go to division 2 but as for new trips it might not work out great anyway as I would imagine Dublin would only be in div 2 for one year and you would only have 3 or 4 away games at most and one of those probably be another div one team that's relegated with you,Also the Offaly or Cork could be relegated themselves.Anyway it has nt happened yet.I do agree the players don't seem to be playing for the manager but maybe a lot of fitness training being done and not enough ball work,There is a short run to the championship this year and Dessie says he has a plan and maybe he does.Time will tell .
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3674 - 28/02/2022 12:16:11
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Replying To Gavvygavgav: "Yep. Getting relegated doesn't bother me, as it's the championship that really matters. But, yeah, 100% approach, game plan, tactics and philosophy are just not up to doing anything in the championship. The confidence visibly seeps out of the players during the matches these days. Looking forward to different away days next year, not looking forward to watching Farrell's charges this summer." Yes, all of those things but our lads made so many basic passing errors that it was nforgiveable, we wouldn't take a shot to save our lives and when we did, we couldn't hit a barn door. That part is on the players alone. Bugler was the only forward having a real go. I've always said this but Scully and Kilkenny are never going to keep the scoreboard ticking over in a big way. They obviously play huge roles but consistently scoring 3-4 points a game isn't one of them, even though CK got 2 yesterday. . So we are limited to 4 real scorers, 3 of who are inside forwards and see little ball with our style of play anyway. Couple all of this with the loss of Mannion, Con and no Paddy Small and we pose little threat at the moment. When did we last raise a green flag in League and Championship, against Meath last July I think? Dessie has a lot of fixing to do on all fronts right now. Let's hope Omagh can be a turning point. Lots of Dubs are writing off the value of the league but wins in competitive games coming into the championship are very important for morale and momentum. The LSFC is not going to be easy for the Dubs this year and every team, no matter how small, smells blood. There's still signs of life in us yet though.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 28/02/2022 12:32:57
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Got to say my head is taking a bit of adjusting to what genuinely seems to be a new reality. Like a beaten dog, I can't get away from the expectation that the Dubs always show up, perform and nearly always win. A decade of consistency has been drilled into my psyche and the instinct is to expect everything to snap back into place once the missing three or four first teamers come back into the side. But it looks for sure like the bubble has burst and the players coming in are having to adapt without the cloak of invincibility and so will need time to find their feet as a result. if it happens, Div 2 is not a bad place to do a reset and a year there would do more good than harm.
Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2521 - 01/03/2022 12:41:47
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Replying To sam1884: "Dublin had twenty of the best thirty players in the country for a decade. That was mixed with the right man to change the culture before Gavin took over; becoming one of the best football managers ever,
overseeing the best team to ever play football. It's now become obvious their success was never about money alone.
I wouldn't bet against Dublin winning the All Ireland this year but they're just not replacing players with the same quality and haven't been doing so for the last year or two. Some of the players coming in, through no fault of their own wouldn't start for the other two or three top teams so Dublin no longer have such a high number of the country's best players. It looks like championship is all that matters this season and whilst a rebuild takes place results will suffer like with all teams.
Dublin will never be as good again but then that 6 in a row era will never be matched again but it'll be harder for Dublin teams coming after it, as they'll be judged on what went before." Remember the gob***** who said Dublin should be split in 2 because we were too good ?
Heffo (Dublin) - Posts: 76 - 01/03/2022 13:57:03
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