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Replying To dubarra:  "Gavin didn't introduce enough new blood?Are you having a laugh or did you only start watching the Dubs yesterday,he introduced Mannion,Kilkenny, Costello, McCaffery,Fenton,Howard, Byrne,Murchin,Sully, O Callaghan, Jn,Small,Paddy Small,Rock,and few more I can't think off the top of my head. Farrell is now try to introduce guys now in their late 20s who couldn't make it 7 or 8yrs ago ."
Dubs do seem to be taking through lads that couldn't make their all Ireland winning teams. Waste of time really, very few inter county stars burst through at 29.

I'm just hoping to give big Joe McNally another shot.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 988 - 06/02/2022 10:32:42    2398520

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Replying To dubarra:  "Gavin didn't introduce enough new blood?Are you having a laugh or did you only start watching the Dubs yesterday,he introduced Mannion,Kilkenny, Costello, McCaffery,Fenton,Howard, Byrne,Murchin,Sully, O Callaghan, Jn,Small,Paddy Small,Rock,and few more I can't think off the top of my head. Farrell is now try to introduce guys now in their late 20s who couldn't make it 7 or 8yrs ago ."
Dublin had twenty of the best thirty players in the country for a decade. That was mixed with the right man to change the culture before Gavin took over; becoming one of the best football managers ever,
overseeing the best team to ever play football. It's now become obvious their success was never about money alone.

I wouldn't bet against Dublin winning the All Ireland this year but they're just not replacing players with the same quality and haven't been doing so for the last year or two. Some of the players coming in, through no fault of their own wouldn't start for the other two or three top teams so Dublin no longer have such a high number of the country's best players. It looks like championship is all that matters this season and whilst a rebuild takes place results will suffer like with all teams.

Dublin will never be as good again but then that 6 in a row era will never be matched again but it'll be harder for Dublin teams coming after it, as they'll be judged on what went before.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 957 - 06/02/2022 10:51:42    2398524

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Supporters have to be realistic. Not going to win All Ireland again for a few years at least because they players are not coming in to replace what is leaving. Same has happened to all great teams in all sports.

Will be interesting few years as they are going to have a target on their back in every game as they are still a big scalp. Will be the makings of some of the younger lads, the end for others. I have to say I admire Fenton even more for the new role he's taken on. He could be the Brian Mullins of the transition years.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 660 - 06/02/2022 11:29:27    2398528

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Supporters have to be realistic. Not going to win All Ireland again for a few years at least because they players are not coming in to replace what is leaving. Same has happened to all great teams in all sports.

Will be interesting few years as they are going to have a target on their back in every game as they are still a big scalp. Will be the makings of some of the younger lads, the end for others. I have to say I admire Fenton even more for the new role he's taken on. He could be the Brian Mullins of the transition years."
Sorry but have to address that point on Fenton. What role is that that he has taken on? He's been anonymous in both games. Howard stood up the most for Dublin last night.

Kerry15 (Kerry) - Posts: 921 - 06/02/2022 11:57:48    2398535

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Well now Wet & dirty night in Tralee , big numbers of Kerry support, sensing a bit of blood in the water - not unjustifiably so after our performance last week and really the last year and a half. End of the world stuff in terms of conditions, stinging persistent rain, you could forget about avoiding behind the goal with the wind howling. Thus the Dubs rocked up to town.

Game started out fairly even, Dublin much improved to my eye that bit more fluent and coherent - I'm beginning to think they are doing huge blocks of conditioning as they seemed to be moving that bit better than last week, but you could see the young lads struggle a bit - maybe not used to it.

Bar David Moran Kerry weren't a kick up the back side away of what you'd expect their championship 15 to be. The Dubs still missing a fair few gave youth and inexperience a bit of a fling. Nip and tuck, with Dublin coughing loads of space in front of the backline again, felt we gave away chances we generally wouldn't with Copper and Fitz in the backline. That said felt we could impose ourselves on Kerry make could them retreat and it wasn't much of hassle getting between and behind their lines, they are still not great at the back.

Ref in my opinion and he has history, set his stall out early, that it would be a long hard night decision wise, with early frees harshly given to Kerry to set a foundation, while we found them hard to come by, the game went continued that way. Missed peno and all.

Turning point of the game was our disallowed goal, we were making hay, felt momentum was with us, we were beginning to hurt them, if the goal stood felt we would have kicked on and the Kerry mentality would have been asked a question. Instead the umpire brought the refs attention to a fairly routine block by McMahon, despite the ref not seeing it, he disallowed the goal and gave Scully a black card who was a mile away from the incident. Mad stuff, it's indicative of the vision of the incident that they gave the wrong man the line.

Down to 14, we struggled with numbers and had to compensate in lines, during this disruption Kerry capitalised and kicked on. Another poor decision in my opinion hurt us, what looked a line ball for Dublin was given to Kerry that resulted in a well taken goal.

With Dublin down to 14 on the wrong end of decisions and missing players Kerry racked up a score as we headed to the break.

The lead was always going to be hard to surmount given the context, while Kerry were content enough just to keep us at arms length and so the game finished out with us just ticking over what we could - think at the end the difference was 7 points, which is the balance of our disallowed goal, sideline ball and what looked a bad decision from behind the a goal of a point that went over and called wide in the second half. Different ref on a different night I think we get a result. But nothing won in Spring.

Be very surprised to see either team win an All Ireland this year, Kerry I think are still struggling from 9 back, you can hurt them without question. Very reliant on Clifford, while a wonderful player I think they need, more diversity from an attacking point of view.

As for us. Tactically, it's clear to me we need a sweeper, Rian last week and Clifford last night cleaned up getting out in front of our defensive line in space, a sweeper and we are cutting out 75% of what we're conceding at the mo.

Our forward line at the moment is very poor, the weakest part of the team last week and this week once we get in behind we are frustrating in terms of finishing. Trying to be to clever and it's is also leading to danger at the breakdown, we left chances begging their last night for goals and points. You have to hope with the return of Con, Costello, Small, Basquel etc - we can be more incisive.

Else-wise, thought Howard was magnificent, Davy Byrne much improved, Even great, Fenton is in the poorest run of form of hisDublin career. Bugler very good to - fine against the Kerrys of this world, but I'd have Howard in the Half forward line against your Mayos and Tyrones.

Ultimately though it's was a Dublin team which was very inexperienced in key areas playing against a Kerry team at full strength.

Yet I'd suggest the only way we can build and get back to a decent level of panel strength be challenging in the years ahead is to continue to give the young and inexperienced players like O Dell, Archer, Gannon, McGarry, Smith & McCormack etc a blooding in these scenarios of toughness . Some lads will hit the ground running, others will take time and some wont cut it, but it all need to be tried . It wont be pretty at times, but I think back to the startled earwig game - how many medals did that team finish with. Tonight a lot of young lads got experience.

I was actually happier with our attitude and performance last night then I was against Armagh. Despite the country licking their licks at our demise. :D We will look to our own, it's our way.

Right now it's about coming up with serious options for the Championship panel these lads have to be tried, but we know we have Fitzey, Cooper, Jamsie, King Con and a few other to come back to augment. Still have more than enough players to compete for the big trophies, if we're cleverer tactically, you do feel both teams last night will need a bit of luck to win Sam this year.

Overall, I'm far happier about last night than I was last week all in.

But we have a little matter of staying up to sort out so next up we welcome Mayo to the home of the 6 in a row - we owe them one! Can't wait.

As always,

Up The Dubs!

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4276 - 06/02/2022 12:11:34    2398539

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Hard to argue with any of that Username. I think we showed enough to prove we are capable of doing something but again (and I don't like to keep harping back to it!) Dessie on the line looked out of his depth. First half we were wide open at the back and down to 14 men but still didn't drop someone to sit in front of the full back line. You're asking for trouble letting that happen. You would hope the re-introduction of Con (heard he has an ankle knock so not sure when he will be back), McCarthy, Cooper and Fitzsimons will give us an immediate lift and then throw in Costello and perhaps Paddy Small into the forwards and you're already looking at a far stronger team on paper. Crucially all of them are used to playing with each other so there won't be a lack of cohesion as we've seen in the last two games.

I think with the rest of the country absolutely wallowing in our apparent demise that you'd hope a long hard look at ourselves is happening as we speak. I do think we could do with more of a disciplined manager at the moment and one that is prepared to sacrifice a bit in terms of his own tactical beliefs in order to set up in a way that gets the most from the players at his disposal. Under Gavin standards were driven by the players and now quite simply there are a few lads in there that are not at that elite level I think. The main lads know they're undroppable and even standards slipping by a few percent has a big ripple effect. Would I prefer someone else in charge? Yes but not because Dessie is awful, I just don't think the timing is good for him and his style. In another era he could have been perfect but we need someone a bit more flexible in their thinking and as I say willing to change things up to suit the players he has in order to win.

TrueBlue35 (Dublin) - Posts: 198 - 07/02/2022 09:09:34    2398786

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Ironically, Dublin might be getting stuck in that dour predictable slow build up style that their attacking prowess demolished ten years ago, while the teams playing the most exciting and open and attacking football are the dreaded nordies!

Armagh like Tyrone last year are very dangerous on the counter and move the ball very quickly into the forwards while of course having a solid enough defence. Be interesting to see how they do against Kerry who for all the talk - better pick aside at the moment in terms of talent - are a bit predictable like Dublin. As Tyrone exploited last year.

Game is always changing and Dublin are in danger of looking a bit behind the curve these days.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 660 - 07/02/2022 10:53:08    2398833

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I watched the game again and just a few observations. I thought Dublin were very heavy legged like they are training hard but I also thought that the week before about Kerry against Kildare. I think David Byrne is a fine footballer but this is the 3rd game in a row he has been well beaten (Kerry Armagh and Laois) Now alot of that is he is not getting much protection I. e sweeper. Fenton has nt been himself last 2 games and even Kilkenny looked tíre the other night. Now succeeds is a drug and once you get it you never want to lose it but I do think perspective is needed and Dessie should be given a break. He trying to introduce new players so go easy on him. Come championship Dublin will be in top condition and they will almost certainly be in an all ireland semi final and anything can happen then. Don't lose the faith.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3049 - 07/02/2022 11:25:37    2398842

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "I watched the game again and just a few observations. I thought Dublin were very heavy legged like they are training hard but I also thought that the week before about Kerry against Kildare. I think David Byrne is a fine footballer but this is the 3rd game in a row he has been well beaten (Kerry Armagh and Laois) Now alot of that is he is not getting much protection I. e sweeper. Fenton has nt been himself last 2 games and even Kilkenny looked tíre the other night. Now succeeds is a drug and once you get it you never want to lose it but I do think perspective is needed and Dessie should be given a break. He trying to introduce new players so go easy on him. Come championship Dublin will be in top condition and they will almost certainly be in an all ireland semi final and anything can happen then. Don't lose the faith."
The point about the personnel available to him is fine. Tactically however, it appears nothing has changed since the Mayo defeat. That is my fear, and that's on Farrell. If you don't learn from your mistakes then you're destined to make them all again.

Gavvygavgav (Dublin) - Posts: 378 - 07/02/2022 13:18:05    2398895

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Replying To Gavvygavgav:  "The point about the personnel available to him is fine. Tactically however, it appears nothing has changed since the Mayo defeat. That is my fear, and that's on Farrell. If you don't learn from your mistakes then you're destined to make them all again."
100% agree with this

superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2824 - 07/02/2022 13:33:01    2398905

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the dubs are finished. Great for kerry. Eased upnin second half.

kerry4sam21 (Kerry) - Posts: 103 - 07/02/2022 13:58:03    2398927

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Replying To Gavvygavgav:  "The point about the personnel available to him is fine. Tactically however, it appears nothing has changed since the Mayo defeat. That is my fear, and that's on Farrell. If you don't learn from your mistakes then you're destined to make them all again."
It was very surprising in both games to date how Dublin have gone through patches of kicking aimless high ball in to the full forward line. I'd never expect that from Dublin and it must come from management.
I said it for years that I greatly admired that Dublin team but you cant continue to lose top quality players every year and it not eventually catch up with you.

I'd like for Colm O'Rourke and Parkinson and others to come out now and lay out their idiotic reasons as to why Dublin should be split in 4. O'Rourke is a well educated man by all accounts and it was cringey then but just laughable now. Very few outside of the Dubs that it was a terrible idea but for some reason they've gone extremely quiet now.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 3602 - 07/02/2022 14:36:08    2398952

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Replying To kerry4sam21:  "the dubs are finished. Great for kerry. Eased upnin second half."
Good Lad , stay classy

superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2824 - 07/02/2022 14:41:47    2398958

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Replying To Gavvygavgav:  "The point about the personnel available to him is fine. Tactically however, it appears nothing has changed since the Mayo defeat. That is my fear, and that's on Farrell. If you don't learn from your mistakes then you're destined to make them all again."
Agreed. I don't think anyone would have any complaints leaving Tralee on the back of a defeat as long as there were some sort of signs of improvement/tactical development or simply just something different to what we have seen since the Mayo defeat last year.

The funny thing is I don't think Kerry are any great shakes either. We opened them up a couple of times in the first half with relative ease so I think their old failings will come back to haunt them later in the year. They haven't unearthed anyone at the back and are still very reliant on Clifford.

I think given it's only February we can afford not to panic but if we're having the same chat come summer time then we're in bother!

TrueBlue35 (Dublin) - Posts: 198 - 07/02/2022 14:42:08    2398959

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kerry are now playing to their strengths. Front foot football with the kick pass. None of this basketball nosense.

kerry4sam21 (Kerry) - Posts: 103 - 07/02/2022 16:02:09    2399007

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Replying To kerry4sam21:  "kerry are now playing to their strengths. Front foot football with the kick pass. None of this basketball nosense."
That Kerry team while very good going forward they still have serious problems in defence…

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1032 - 07/02/2022 16:26:48    2399028

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Replying To kerry4sam21:  "the dubs are finished. Great for kerry. Eased upnin second half."
Lads and Lassies this dude is NO KERRYMAN i can assure you. A Kildare man as he told all on the Kildare thread. Best ignored.

GreenAndGold74 (Kerry) - Posts: 194 - 07/02/2022 19:55:25    2399140

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "That Kerry team while very good going forward they still have serious problems in defence…"
We have Patrick Tally in from Tyrone as defensive coach this year.

kerry4sam21 (Kerry) - Posts: 103 - 08/02/2022 08:24:39    2399200

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Replying To kerry4sam21:  "We have Patrick Tally in from Tyrone as defensive coach this year."
A heads up this poster that's calling himself Kerry4sam21 is not from Kerry, he is the poster that used to call himself catch22, he used to spend a lot of his time on the old Kerry forum on the windup and still is ( he's now stealing people's posts from other forums and posting them on here as well)

Now it looks like he's on yer forum trying to stir the pot as he was on the Kildare forum last week trying the same thing.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 08/02/2022 11:39:59    2399271

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Replying To TrueBlue35:  "Hard to argue with any of that Username. I think we showed enough to prove we are capable of doing something but again (and I don't like to keep harping back to it!) Dessie on the line looked out of his depth. First half we were wide open at the back and down to 14 men but still didn't drop someone to sit in front of the full back line. You're asking for trouble letting that happen. You would hope the re-introduction of Con (heard he has an ankle knock so not sure when he will be back), McCarthy, Cooper and Fitzsimons will give us an immediate lift and then throw in Costello and perhaps Paddy Small into the forwards and you're already looking at a far stronger team on paper. Crucially all of them are used to playing with each other so there won't be a lack of cohesion as we've seen in the last two games.

I think with the rest of the country absolutely wallowing in our apparent demise that you'd hope a long hard look at ourselves is happening as we speak. I do think we could do with more of a disciplined manager at the moment and one that is prepared to sacrifice a bit in terms of his own tactical beliefs in order to set up in a way that gets the most from the players at his disposal. Under Gavin standards were driven by the players and now quite simply there are a few lads in there that are not at that elite level I think. The main lads know they're undroppable and even standards slipping by a few percent has a big ripple effect. Would I prefer someone else in charge? Yes but not because Dessie is awful, I just don't think the timing is good for him and his style. In another era he could have been perfect but we need someone a bit more flexible in their thinking and as I say willing to change things up to suit the players he has in order to win."
Excellent point mate.

Is Dessie the right man at the wrong time? Its an interesting one. If we wind back the clock Dessie is exactly where Jim was in 2015, 3rd year - won one and lost one at the semi final stage. Both arguably were at the helm of two melt downs in the second half of each Semi.

As we know Gavin identified the central channel, were Donegal ran a muck to shut down and played more pragmatic, Cian came back at Sweeper and the likes of Paul Flynn used to drop back to half back line - often at the cost of his offensive game, Kilkenny laterally, while defending started from the front - all forwards expected to put a shift in from the front (im thinking Kikenny, Con, Mannion, Dermo). Arguably Gavin learned by his mistakes and went on to have the greatest run of success of any manger ever.

Did Gavin have better players? Maybe, but then no body was calling us superstars in 2013 when Gavin took over despite 2011 and a half hearted effort at 2012.

So we come to Dessie. Hes now in exactly the same position Gavin was in 2015 - all to prove. Perhaps there are mitigating circumstances - perhaps the squad isn't quite as strong or perhaps the quality isn't there?

However i would suggest, less then 13 months we won the All Ireland with this team: Stephen Cluxton; Michael Fitzsimons, David Byrne, Jonny Cooper; Eoin Murchan, John Small (0-01), Robbie McDaid; Brian Fenton (0-01), James McCarthy; Niall Scully (0-01), Ciaran Kilkenny (0-03), Seán Bugler (0-01); Paddy Small, Con O'Callaghan (1-01), Dean Rock (1-04, 4f).

All of those players are still available to us, bar the living legend and i think Even is excellent. Even the subs that day available bar Mannion were : Subs: Brian Howard (0-01) for Bugler (35), Paul Mannion (0-01, 1f) for Paddy Small (50), Colm Basquel for Cooper (53), Cormac Costello for Scully (70).

So we have a squad of players in the main bar two - who have done it the season before last.

I expressed the concern when Dessie took over on here - that after watching his minor teams, U 20 teams, NF teams he believes in playing very openly - how Dublin play now is how Desies teams have always played - hes had success, but arguably he should have had more when you look at games at Dublin underage and at NF. His approach can be very boom and bust as he takes huge risks in the games playing so openly.

I think very clearly we need a sweeper. We know say Fitzy marking and Murch/Small out in front sweeping can keep a Clifford or a Johnson fairly quiet - i.e they will always score, but nopt running a muck, i think we have the players for it, but its not how Dessie plays. I think he going to rely on pushing back pinning teams teams enough that the defense isnt going to be caught out on the break down and he isnt going to commit men back or sweepers - but as we know the warning shots are all over the place there in our last three competitive games

Is he the right man at the wrong time ?- perhaps, if he was Dublin manager when we hadn't dominated the game for a decade and teams more played open against us then he could have made hay. Sadly though we live in reality, Armagh were in a defensive shell, Kerry were happy to sit back (and they were playing deep lines anyway), with what they had after the first half on Sat. The defensive shell is working, give Dublin nothing and you beat them on the break - that is not going to change because its working. So for me Dessie's style doesn't suit the reality of where Dublin are and how teams approach how to play them at the moment - they wont stop because its working.

It really is over to Dessie now whether he sticks with his philosophy or like Gavin in 2015 he becomes more pragmatic and adjust to the environment, because i still believe the players are still there. While the likes of Archer, O Dell, Gannon - are as good as prospects as anyone else in the country and have proved it at underage - Mark Lavin to for my money. we have a job and a duty to develop them.

So where i am at with Dessie is - we are back in 2015 with Gavin, he will get this year, the decision for him is does he stick to his philosophy or does he like Gavin adjust to the reality of the situation and environment and become pragmatic?

Over to you Desmond.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4276 - 08/02/2022 11:50:23    2399274

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