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Leinster Senior Club Hurling

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Replying To wexico15:  "Wexford championship is very even with at least 6 teams in the frame to win it, Rapps actually didn't get out of the group last year although they lost twice narrowly in a group of 3 to the 2 eventual finalists, ended up winning the football championship subsequently, they were lucky to win the Wexford semi final this year after been behind for about 56 or 57 mins. They have alot of players who play 3 sports with a couple of rugby players and a good few playing junior soccer, a few of there players were playing soccer at 10 yesterday morning after the hurling match.

Oulart are 1 of only 2 sole hurling clubs in Wexford, actually got relegated this year with alot of main players now moved on, I know they've huge regrets losing the 2016 AL semi against Na Pairsaigh who were at there peak, looking back they were the 2 strongest in the competition that year by a long way."
I felt, as a man with a foot in both camps, that that day in '16 that while Oulart were unlucky, their tactics were all wrong in the first half of the game. They seemed to play seven defenders, while playing with the wind and Ronan Lynch, the Na Piarsaigh Center back, absolutely cleaned up as a result. Na Piarsigh themselves should have beaten Cuala in '18, and would have only Mike Casey had to go off injured.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 3581 - 29/11/2021 11:56:39    2391099

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "I felt, as a man with a foot in both camps, that that day in '16 that while Oulart were unlucky, their tactics were all wrong in the first half of the game. They seemed to play seven defenders, while playing with the wind and Ronan Lynch, the Na Piarsaigh Center back, absolutely cleaned up as a result. Na Piarsigh themselves should have beaten Cuala in '18, and would have only Mike Casey had to go off injured."
I think that is their regret, showed Na Parisaigh too much respect. Also David Redmond the former Wexford player who was flying in midfield that campaign got concussed early in the game, Na Pairsaigh were dominant in midfield and might not have been to such an extent due to that.

bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 29/11/2021 12:21:12    2391103

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Replying To wexico15:  "I think that is their regret, showed Na Parisaigh too much respect. Also David Redmond the former Wexford player who was flying in midfield that campaign got concussed early in the game, Na Pairsaigh were dominant in midfield and might not have been to such an extent due to that."
Wexford has outside of Dublin the largest number of clubs in Leinster and you would say almost entirely parish based. Look at Kilkenny, half the number of clubs and about the same number of parishes. We will never get to that simply because its now too engraved in the nature of the game, it's not juts the club but the parish. Its also why clubs will never give up one code for the other, can't have the neighbours doing better.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1409 - 29/11/2021 16:18:57    2391135

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Replying To zinny:  "Wexford has outside of Dublin the largest number of clubs in Leinster and you would say almost entirely parish based. Look at Kilkenny, half the number of clubs and about the same number of parishes. We will never get to that simply because its now too engraved in the nature of the game, it's not juts the club but the parish. Its also why clubs will never give up one code for the other, can't have the neighbours doing better."
Yes but the club and parish is what the GAA is supposed to be all about. Not superclubs concentrating on one code and drawing players from many parishes in order to win.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 4840 - 29/11/2021 17:20:52    2391146

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Replying To zinny:  "Wexford has outside of Dublin the largest number of clubs in Leinster and you would say almost entirely parish based. Look at Kilkenny, half the number of clubs and about the same number of parishes. We will never get to that simply because its now too engraved in the nature of the game, it's not juts the club but the parish. Its also why clubs will never give up one code for the other, can't have the neighbours doing better."
Why is the point your trying to make? Is GAA about participation or winning at all costs? last thing I want is a player forced to choose 1 code over the other, if a player wants to play both let him play both, if he wants focus on 1 that's fine and his prerogative. Loughmore and Slaughneil have shown it can be done, even in our own county with Shels and Rapps/ Starlights even if not in the same year.

bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 29/11/2021 17:43:38    2391148

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Replying To Viking66:  "Yes but the club and parish is what the GAA is supposed to be all about. Not superclubs concentrating on one code and drawing players from many parishes in order to win."
Name these 'super clubs'?

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1682 - 29/11/2021 17:58:33    2391150

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "Name these 'super clubs'?"
Imokilly won 3 Cork SH titles in a row. Ballyboden St Endas are a merger between Rathfarnham and Ballyboden in Dublin. There are numerous other examples of combined parish teams that have won senior county titles.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 4840 - 30/11/2021 07:43:23    2391162

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Replying To wexico15:  "Why is the point your trying to make? Is GAA about participation or winning at all costs? last thing I want is a player forced to choose 1 code over the other, if a player wants to play both let him play both, if he wants focus on 1 that's fine and his prerogative. Loughmore and Slaughneil have shown it can be done, even in our own county with Shels and Rapps/ Starlights even if not in the same year."
It's a potential explanation as to why potentially we are not as strong at provincial club level as other counties, with a wider club base we just don't have the concentration. When I looked again I realised that the parish numbers I was looking at were what they call the civil parishes and I was in the mind of ecclesiastical parishes. I guess the best way to compare would be population, which would mean that kk would have 50% density that we. Of course that doesn't explain it al but all else been equal it has to help. Looking at some of the numbers even for the smallest counties wes ratio is very low. Perhaps that does in a way help why we are also a duel county, no one club can ever dominate for long as while they may have a golden generation the base is never there to sustain it. Perhaps someone will produce the stats someday and it will all make sense.
Nothing in there suggested changing in.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1409 - 30/11/2021 08:25:34    2391164

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Replying To Viking66:  "Imokilly won 3 Cork SH titles in a row. Ballyboden St Endas are a merger between Rathfarnham and Ballyboden in Dublin. There are numerous other examples of combined parish teams that have won senior county titles."
Ballyhea aren't a huge club, but they are an example of a team which gets players from numerous surrounding football clubs. They draw from at least 4 different football clubs, as far as I know.
Claregalway in my own county are an example of the inverse. They're a football club with players from a number of hurling clubs around them. There's an argument that some of these players would be closer to other football clubs, but they're free to play for whomever they wish.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1405 - 30/11/2021 10:43:48    2391176

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Replying To Viking66:  "Imokilly won 3 Cork SH titles in a row. Ballyboden St Endas are a merger between Rathfarnham and Ballyboden in Dublin. There are numerous other examples of combined parish teams that have won senior county titles."
The Ballyboden merger took place when south Dublin was still largely a collection of villages. The whole place just mushroomed around them and to be fair they catered for that. Other clubs in similar situations did not.

I'm from small club myself so have no great love for the Crokes and Fiannas and Bodens and Brigids but it is not as though they grew aggressively at others expense.

Aside from forcing them to break up i don't see any solution! Same applies also to several big town clubs around the country. Some deal with population growth better than others I think.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 625 - 30/11/2021 11:12:11    2391185

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "Ballyhea aren't a huge club, but they are an example of a team which gets players from numerous surrounding football clubs. They draw from at least 4 different football clubs, as far as I know.
Claregalway in my own county are an example of the inverse. They're a football club with players from a number of hurling clubs around them. There's an argument that some of these players would be closer to other football clubs, but they're free to play for whomever they wish."
There are a couple of examples in Wexford for example Faythe Harriers hurlers play football with various different clubs as the Harriers are 1 of only a very few 1 code clubs. And at underage there are a few merged club teams where clubs dont have the numbers to field a team. But nearly all the clubs field adult teams in both codes, which means, going back to the original point, it's much harder, though not impossible, for them to be competitive against clubs who only play one code and can concentrate training, challenge matches etc solely on that code from under 5s upwards. For example even the running of the club championships is proving to be a problem. Some, including me, reckon the current split arrangement is best with hurling run off first when the pitches are better. Others think football should be first in alternate years. Problem with either format when it comes to the provincial club championships is that either our hurling or our football champions havent played the game they won their championship in for nearly 2 months when the Leinster comes around. It used to be football and hurling on alternate weekends but that system definitely favoured the small few clubs who concentrated on hurling or football. And also the standard generally maybe wasnt as good, especially at hurling. Obviously having nearly all our club players being dual players, as they are, affects us when our clubs come up against clubs from other counties fielding teams whose players predominantly only play one code. And also affects our county teams when playing against other counties whose players predominantly only play one code.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 4840 - 30/11/2021 12:11:49    2391191

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Replying To Viking66:  "There are a couple of examples in Wexford for example Faythe Harriers hurlers play football with various different clubs as the Harriers are 1 of only a very few 1 code clubs. And at underage there are a few merged club teams where clubs dont have the numbers to field a team. But nearly all the clubs field adult teams in both codes, which means, going back to the original point, it's much harder, though not impossible, for them to be competitive against clubs who only play one code and can concentrate training, challenge matches etc solely on that code from under 5s upwards. For example even the running of the club championships is proving to be a problem. Some, including me, reckon the current split arrangement is best with hurling run off first when the pitches are better. Others think football should be first in alternate years. Problem with either format when it comes to the provincial club championships is that either our hurling or our football champions havent played the game they won their championship in for nearly 2 months when the Leinster comes around. It used to be football and hurling on alternate weekends but that system definitely favoured the small few clubs who concentrated on hurling or football. And also the standard generally maybe wasnt as good, especially at hurling. Obviously having nearly all our club players being dual players, as they are, affects us when our clubs come up against clubs from other counties fielding teams whose players predominantly only play one code. And also affects our county teams when playing against other counties whose players predominantly only play one code."
In my opinion the alternate weekend format is the best option for a dual county. I think it's how most counties operate. Galway and Tipp for certain.
My own club is a small dual club and both teams are essentially the same in terms of players. Loughmore have shown that it doesn't necessarily have to be a disadvantage, if the codes can work hand in hand. There's good cooperation in my own club between both management teams and it works well. We're at our highest level in both codes for the past 3 years.
The lads are playing championship every weekend, but to be honest they prefer having games rather than more training.
Rapparees seemed to be badly affected by the split season and the delay they faced as a result.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1405 - 30/11/2021 12:41:12    2391194

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Replying To Viking66:  "There are a couple of examples in Wexford for example Faythe Harriers hurlers play football with various different clubs as the Harriers are 1 of only a very few 1 code clubs. And at underage there are a few merged club teams where clubs dont have the numbers to field a team. But nearly all the clubs field adult teams in both codes, which means, going back to the original point, it's much harder, though not impossible, for them to be competitive against clubs who only play one code and can concentrate training, challenge matches etc solely on that code from under 5s upwards. For example even the running of the club championships is proving to be a problem. Some, including me, reckon the current split arrangement is best with hurling run off first when the pitches are better. Others think football should be first in alternate years. Problem with either format when it comes to the provincial club championships is that either our hurling or our football champions havent played the game they won their championship in for nearly 2 months when the Leinster comes around. It used to be football and hurling on alternate weekends but that system definitely favoured the small few clubs who concentrated on hurling or football. And also the standard generally maybe wasnt as good, especially at hurling. Obviously having nearly all our club players being dual players, as they are, affects us when our clubs come up against clubs from other counties fielding teams whose players predominantly only play one code. And also affects our county teams when playing against other counties whose players predominantly only play one code."
This is not being disingenuous to Wexford football but the county team is usually floating around the bottom of the lowest division and Wexford clubs aren't seen as much of threat in all Ireland series at football either so for all the talk of everyone plays both it doesn't seem to improve football in the county either. Was just wondering how the wexford hurling standards at club have been low for a while now, like st martins, rapps, Naomh eanna have all taken massive hammerings in Leinster... especially when you think of the great Rathnure, Oularth, buffers Alley teams that's were top class from the 70s-15, seems to be a big drop off but it's not like football has improved really at all in the county bar a resurgence 15 years ago for a couple of years. Like Tipperary is very much a hurling first county but yet it's footballers have been relatively successful at county level and club level where bar a few areas football is only given an afterthought. Just wondering have you any insight into how this drop has came in Wexford hurling but no real improvement in football in the county either. Love Wexford and would hate to see them go the way Offaly did (who finally stopped the rot and are improving at all levels in hurling and football with a much smaller pick) need more counties competitive at all levels, especially for us in Leinster or fear falling behind Munster

ML89 (Galway) - Posts: 39 - 30/11/2021 12:55:06    2391196

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Replying To ML89:  "This is not being disingenuous to Wexford football but the county team is usually floating around the bottom of the lowest division and Wexford clubs aren't seen as much of threat in all Ireland series at football either so for all the talk of everyone plays both it doesn't seem to improve football in the county either. Was just wondering how the wexford hurling standards at club have been low for a while now, like st martins, rapps, Naomh eanna have all taken massive hammerings in Leinster... especially when you think of the great Rathnure, Oularth, buffers Alley teams that's were top class from the 70s-15, seems to be a big drop off but it's not like football has improved really at all in the county bar a resurgence 15 years ago for a couple of years. Like Tipperary is very much a hurling first county but yet it's footballers have been relatively successful at county level and club level where bar a few areas football is only given an afterthought. Just wondering have you any insight into how this drop has came in Wexford hurling but no real improvement in football in the county either. Love Wexford and would hate to see them go the way Offaly did (who finally stopped the rot and are improving at all levels in hurling and football with a much smaller pick) need more counties competitive at all levels, especially for us in Leinster or fear falling behind Munster"
Alot of the best players in the Wexford club football championship are intercounty hurlers. I'd say Liam Ryan, Matthew O'Hanlon, Lee Chin, Rory O'Connor, Simon Donohoe, Mikie Dwyer and Aidan Nolan are all good enough to be on the Wexford football panel. Mark Fanning, Kevin Foley, Paudie Foley, Diarmuid O'Keeffe, and Liam Og McGovern all very influential for there clubs too, there's 12 senior clubs in both codes in Wexford, next year 6 clubs will be senior in both while Faythe Harriers Hurling and Sarsfelds football club in wexford town both senior have some crossover too, Lee Chin being the most well known example there.

bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 30/11/2021 13:24:50    2391202

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Replying To ML89:  "This is not being disingenuous to Wexford football but the county team is usually floating around the bottom of the lowest division and Wexford clubs aren't seen as much of threat in all Ireland series at football either so for all the talk of everyone plays both it doesn't seem to improve football in the county either. Was just wondering how the wexford hurling standards at club have been low for a while now, like st martins, rapps, Naomh eanna have all taken massive hammerings in Leinster... especially when you think of the great Rathnure, Oularth, buffers Alley teams that's were top class from the 70s-15, seems to be a big drop off but it's not like football has improved really at all in the county bar a resurgence 15 years ago for a couple of years. Like Tipperary is very much a hurling first county but yet it's footballers have been relatively successful at county level and club level where bar a few areas football is only given an afterthought. Just wondering have you any insight into how this drop has came in Wexford hurling but no real improvement in football in the county either. Love Wexford and would hate to see them go the way Offaly did (who finally stopped the rot and are improving at all levels in hurling and football with a much smaller pick) need more counties competitive at all levels, especially for us in Leinster or fear falling behind Munster"
On your last sentence just to point out Wexford were more competitive than Galway in this years championship although ye obviously are building up the minor all ireland's.

bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 30/11/2021 13:37:57    2391207

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Replying To wexico15:  "On your last sentence just to point out Wexford were more competitive than Galway in this years championship although ye obviously are building up the minor all ireland's."
Two defeats each to two counties that didn't even make a final doesn't quantify competitive for either side tbf. Defeats to Waterford and Clare were pretty similar, the Waterford one was probably cus with Galway being favourites for it. Probably Galways worst year in over 10 years and sign to move on a few lads and try new things. But I just asking genuine question why Wexfird clubs do so poorly in both codes especially Hurling due to it being a decent division 1 hurling county as opposed to a poor division 4 football one.

ML89 (Galway) - Posts: 39 - 30/11/2021 14:18:31    2391212

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Replying To wexico15:  "Alot of the best players in the Wexford club football championship are intercounty hurlers. I'd say Liam Ryan, Matthew O'Hanlon, Lee Chin, Rory O'Connor, Simon Donohoe, Mikie Dwyer and Aidan Nolan are all good enough to be on the Wexford football panel. Mark Fanning, Kevin Foley, Paudie Foley, Diarmuid O'Keeffe, and Liam Og McGovern all very influential for there clubs too, there's 12 senior clubs in both codes in Wexford, next year 6 clubs will be senior in both while Faythe Harriers Hurling and Sarsfelds football club in wexford town both senior have some crossover too, Lee Chin being the most well known example there."
That's the difference with other counties that have both hurling and football, it's split were part of the country plays and the other doesn't. From an early age kids are playing both and enjoy both. If ever county had the same cross over as Wexford the GAA would be much stronger overall but today that's not a priority. For Wexford to make an impact in football it will require a generation of some of the best athletes to put football over hurling. The days of the duel player at the intercounty level are gone, we are a lesser organisation because of it.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1409 - 30/11/2021 14:33:00    2391216

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Replying To ML89:  "Two defeats each to two counties that didn't even make a final doesn't quantify competitive for either side tbf. Defeats to Waterford and Clare were pretty similar, the Waterford one was probably cus with Galway being favourites for it. Probably Galways worst year in over 10 years and sign to move on a few lads and try new things. But I just asking genuine question why Wexfird clubs do so poorly in both codes especially Hurling due to it being a decent division 1 hurling county as opposed to a poor division 4 football one."
I saw ye in the flesh against Dublin it was a double header with us and Kilkenny, ye were awful and ye were even worse for 50-55 mins against Waterford. We had a horror 1st 20 mins against Clare but were generally competitive outside of that. Nobody is doubting your ability, Henry is no mug I say 1 of the main reasons he joined yourselves is he see's the potential you have. I think the main reasons for poor showings from Wexford clubs is lads playing 2-3 sports, junior soccer is big in wexford too along with a very open championship and no outstanding team since Oulart's golden generation went past their peak. I think what Loughmore have done is amazing just on the last point.

bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 30/11/2021 15:54:31    2391231

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "In my opinion the alternate weekend format is the best option for a dual county. I think it's how most counties operate. Galway and Tipp for certain.
My own club is a small dual club and both teams are essentially the same in terms of players. Loughmore have shown that it doesn't necessarily have to be a disadvantage, if the codes can work hand in hand. There's good cooperation in my own club between both management teams and it works well. We're at our highest level in both codes for the past 3 years.
The lads are playing championship every weekend, but to be honest they prefer having games rather than more training.
Rapparees seemed to be badly affected by the split season and the delay they faced as a result."
They were for sure. Most of their players were playing football, rugby and soccer over the last 11 weeks. Not ideal preparation for Leinster club championship hurling! Your club sounds very similar to ours. We havent won a senior title in either code since the 50s and not that many intermediate and junior titles in both codes put together since then. But we kept our intermediate status in both and will go again next year. The kids love it and they are doing a bit even now in the garden/yard any dry time they get!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 4840 - 30/11/2021 16:27:15    2391235

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On Wexford clubs in the Leinster Championship in general....

I reckon there's a whole multitude of reasons why Oulart weren't more successful while at their peak, including sheer complacency in the year when Mount Leinster Rangers caught them in the final.

Since then:
in 2017, St. Martin's were beaten by Cuala, who went on to win the All-Ireland.
in 2018, Naomh Éanna (Gorey) were beaten by Ballyhale Shamrocks, who went on to win the All-Ireland.
in 2019, St. Martin's were beaten by Ballyhale Shamrocks, who went on to win the All-Ireland.

There's a bit of a common thread there. It's not as though we've a track record of losing to unfancied clubs from "lesser" counties.

Results like the Rapps last weekend would be cause for concern if they kept happening all right, and probably a sign that the long lay-off due to the split club season doesn't do the hurling club any favours when so many of their players are involved in football as well. But you can't judge the whole thing on just one result either. Next year's hurling champions here might do a lot better, whether or not they have a long lay-off after the county final.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 878 - 30/11/2021 16:33:11    2391236

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