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Replying To CARPS: "And are Bagenalstown any closer now to winning a SFC than when they came up in 2017?
All they seem to be doing is stagnating in senior. Much like MLR have been doing for a long time now.
The reason Palatine, Éire Óg and Rathvilly are dominating is not because Fenagh or Clonmore didn't get more time in the SFC. It's because they are consistently the three best teams - by some distance. Although Pal had a weird blip last year.
I don't see anyone emerging from the pack to challenge them in the short to medium term.
If Clonmore were good enough to play senior, they'd have beaten a bad Tinryland side to stay up.
Instead - they were hammered. 16 scores to 6.
As I said, I am not against a year's grace for promoted teams. If Tinryland had gone down this year instead of Clonmore, it would have been no great loss.
What we could do is this. End the practice of 3rd placed teams in groups going to semis. Instead, only the top two go direct to the semifinals. Then three of the bottom four play off in a round robin. Two games each. The bottom side is relegated.
However, I would much prefer to see the number of teams in each grade reduced to six. Everyone plays everyone. Top four into semis. Bottom side relegated. Again, a years grace could be considered for promoted teams." The senior championship being six teams with everyone playing everyone is good in theory but could lead to a lot of dead rubbers later in the competition but it probably would solve the yo yo effect as there probably isn't much between the 6th ranked team in Carlow and the 7th.
My point about Bagenalstown is that if you can stay up you can close the gap, they've beaten Pal and drawn with EO in the years since, if they were coming up and and down from the IFC it's a lot harder to close the gap as you're just trying to survive one year and expected to dominate the next so there's no consistency, if you let the gap at the top grow too big you can have a real problem on your hands at county level, Ballygunner in Waterford for example. Portlaoise went on their run and their county went backwards. Counties with really close championships where there's no gap tend to have a better pick of players imo.
CRTW (Carlow) - Posts: 14 - 07/10/2024 09:55:40
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A 'festival of football' this weekend, the ones I saw were close and entertaining enough, standard was 'okish' across the various levels. A good spread of clubs involved which is always to be welcomed. Hopefully some players caught the eye of the new manager, although some of the more prominent players in the senior game are well on, you would wonder if they are interested in the demands of inter co? On the wireless on the way home I thought it is interesting to hear the manager say the first meeting is on Oct 22 and it seems we are involved in a 'sandbox' trial of the new rules that weekend. He is also actively looking to the Carlow 'diaspora' to recruit players, I'd be all for that if they were genuinely committed and it didn't cause issues elsewhere.
Bainisteoir (National) - Posts: 555 - 07/10/2024 10:08:32
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Replying To CRTW: "The senior championship being six teams with everyone playing everyone is good in theory but could lead to a lot of dead rubbers later in the competition but it probably would solve the yo yo effect as there probably isn't much between the 6th ranked team in Carlow and the 7th.
My point about Bagenalstown is that if you can stay up you can close the gap, they've beaten Pal and drawn with EO in the years since, if they were coming up and and down from the IFC it's a lot harder to close the gap as you're just trying to survive one year and expected to dominate the next so there's no consistency, if you let the gap at the top grow too big you can have a real problem on your hands at county level, Ballygunner in Waterford for example. Portlaoise went on their run and their county went backwards. Counties with really close championships where there's no gap tend to have a better pick of players imo." I don't think Bagenalstown have closed the gap. That's my whole point.
They won two group stage games in 2018, and lost to Rathvilly by two points in the Quarters.
They beat Palatine in 2019 too (Pal reached the final that year), and also beat Old Leighlin and MLR.
2021 they beat Old Leighlin and MLR again, and also Tinryland - reaching the semis.
So, I don't think they are closing the gap.
Instead they are kind of caught in this strange 'no man's land.' Too good for the IFC, as currently constituted, just about good enough to compete in earlier rounds of senior, but quite far off getting to a county final or really being in the shake up at the business end.
As for dead rubbers in a six team? Sure it's a worry, but given the threat of relegation for finishing last (or potentially fifth if we went a year's grace), it should concentrate minds. Plus nobody will want to finish 4th, as you're guaranteed a hard semi.
You cite Portlaoise, but it's also worth nothing that Leix has 16 teams (I think in senior) and their championship is a bit of a joke. I went to the Graigue-Killeshin game, because the son of a friend was playing, and the standard was woeful. I am actually not sure that Graigue would compete at senior in Carlow (in their current condition) if they suddenly decided to come back. Killeshin would be a poor IFC side, from what I saw.
Anyway, the thing is we do have close championships, at all levels.
There are four teams who can win the senior, and there isn't much between them. The issue is more the others: Bagenalstown, Tinryland, MLR and Clonmore/Fenagh are someway back. The IFC was also very competitive (until the final) and anyone of five teams could have won the Junior A.
If you went six in each grade, you'd have senior next year: Bagenalstown, Éire Óg, MLR, Old Leighlin, Palatine, Rathvilly. Intermediate would be: Clonmore, Fenagh, Grange, Kildavin, Tinryland, Tullow. Try to find a winner there!
But, once again, not opposed to keeping current format with a year's grace for IFC winners. But think you'd need a three way playoff in the interest of fairness. Because if (for example), MLR ended up in a group with Rathvilly, EO and Pal and then got relegated because Fenagh finished bottom of the other (easier) one, that would stink.
CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 706 - 07/10/2024 10:38:25
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Replying To CARPS: "I don't think Bagenalstown have closed the gap. That's my whole point.
They won two group stage games in 2018, and lost to Rathvilly by two points in the Quarters.
They beat Palatine in 2019 too (Pal reached the final that year), and also beat Old Leighlin and MLR.
2021 they beat Old Leighlin and MLR again, and also Tinryland - reaching the semis.
So, I don't think they are closing the gap.
Instead they are kind of caught in this strange 'no man's land.' Too good for the IFC, as currently constituted, just about good enough to compete in earlier rounds of senior, but quite far off getting to a county final or really being in the shake up at the business end.
As for dead rubbers in a six team? Sure it's a worry, but given the threat of relegation for finishing last (or potentially fifth if we went a year's grace), it should concentrate minds. Plus nobody will want to finish 4th, as you're guaranteed a hard semi.
You cite Portlaoise, but it's also worth nothing that Leix has 16 teams (I think in senior) and their championship is a bit of a joke. I went to the Graigue-Killeshin game, because the son of a friend was playing, and the standard was woeful. I am actually not sure that Graigue would compete at senior in Carlow (in their current condition) if they suddenly decided to come back. Killeshin would be a poor IFC side, from what I saw.
Anyway, the thing is we do have close championships, at all levels.
There are four teams who can win the senior, and there isn't much between them. The issue is more the others: Bagenalstown, Tinryland, MLR and Clonmore/Fenagh are someway back. The IFC was also very competitive (until the final) and anyone of five teams could have won the Junior A.
If you went six in each grade, you'd have senior next year: Bagenalstown, Éire Óg, MLR, Old Leighlin, Palatine, Rathvilly. Intermediate would be: Clonmore, Fenagh, Grange, Kildavin, Tinryland, Tullow. Try to find a winner there!
But, once again, not opposed to keeping current format with a year's grace for IFC winners. But think you'd need a three way playoff in the interest of fairness. Because if (for example), MLR ended up in a group with Rathvilly, EO and Pal and then got relegated because Fenagh finished bottom of the other (easier) one, that would stink." "MLR are someway back"
Is this the MLR team that had Eire Og knocked out this year but for a brutal refereeing decision?
Dualclub1 (Carlow) - Posts: 280 - 07/10/2024 11:13:27
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Replying To Dualclub1: ""MLR are someway back"
Is this the MLR team that had Eire Og knocked out this year but for a brutal refereeing decision?" When was the last time MLR was in a county SFC final?
For the past 18 years, only five teams have reached finals; Eire Og, Palatine, Old Leighlin, Rathvilly and.... Tinryland (who did it by playing absolute puke football).
CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 706 - 07/10/2024 11:22:35
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What has the last 18 years to do with the now or the next few years or should all championship be based on what happened over the past 18 years ago.
MLR won the u20 A two years ago also
Dualclub1 (Carlow) - Posts: 280 - 07/10/2024 11:32:24
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Replying To CARPS: "I don't think Bagenalstown have closed the gap. That's my whole point.
They won two group stage games in 2018, and lost to Rathvilly by two points in the Quarters.
They beat Palatine in 2019 too (Pal reached the final that year), and also beat Old Leighlin and MLR.
2021 they beat Old Leighlin and MLR again, and also Tinryland - reaching the semis.
So, I don't think they are closing the gap.
Instead they are kind of caught in this strange 'no man's land.' Too good for the IFC, as currently constituted, just about good enough to compete in earlier rounds of senior, but quite far off getting to a county final or really being in the shake up at the business end.
As for dead rubbers in a six team? Sure it's a worry, but given the threat of relegation for finishing last (or potentially fifth if we went a year's grace), it should concentrate minds. Plus nobody will want to finish 4th, as you're guaranteed a hard semi.
You cite Portlaoise, but it's also worth nothing that Leix has 16 teams (I think in senior) and their championship is a bit of a joke. I went to the Graigue-Killeshin game, because the son of a friend was playing, and the standard was woeful. I am actually not sure that Graigue would compete at senior in Carlow (in their current condition) if they suddenly decided to come back. Killeshin would be a poor IFC side, from what I saw.
Anyway, the thing is we do have close championships, at all levels.
There are four teams who can win the senior, and there isn't much between them. The issue is more the others: Bagenalstown, Tinryland, MLR and Clonmore/Fenagh are someway back. The IFC was also very competitive (until the final) and anyone of five teams could have won the Junior A.
If you went six in each grade, you'd have senior next year: Bagenalstown, Éire Óg, MLR, Old Leighlin, Palatine, Rathvilly. Intermediate would be: Clonmore, Fenagh, Grange, Kildavin, Tinryland, Tullow. Try to find a winner there!
But, once again, not opposed to keeping current format with a year's grace for IFC winners. But think you'd need a three way playoff in the interest of fairness. Because if (for example), MLR ended up in a group with Rathvilly, EO and Pal and then got relegated because Fenagh finished bottom of the other (easier) one, that would stink." Yeah look the competitiveness is the main thing in all grades, I'm just concerned about the current gap between intermediate and senior, if we want to progress as a county we need to have all teams really close, trying to pick a county team off three strong senior teams isn't going to work. I think we just need to do more to try close that gap is all and leaving three teams out front can be dangerous if one or two of them fall away we've a problem, if Pal had been relegated last year it could have been a walk in the park for Rathvilly and there's no guarantee Pal would have come back up. EO have lost a few really important players so they could fall out of contention.
Laois club football regressed because of the Portlaoise 9 in a row team is my point, the gap increased, others fell away, eventually Portlaoise fell back too but the damage is done, the standard has fallen which gives way to the current struggles their county team face.
CRTW (Carlow) - Posts: 14 - 07/10/2024 11:41:04
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Replying To Dualclub1: "What has the last 18 years to do with the now or the next few years or should all championship be based on what happened over the past 18 years ago.
MLR won the u20 A two years ago also" And MLR is a senior club. Even if it were reduced to six teams, they'd still be senior and have every chance of winning it next year.
Although we are rivals in hurling, I'd love to see MLR win a senior football.
CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 706 - 07/10/2024 11:53:38
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Replying To CRTW: "Yeah look the competitiveness is the main thing in all grades, I'm just concerned about the current gap between intermediate and senior, if we want to progress as a county we need to have all teams really close, trying to pick a county team off three strong senior teams isn't going to work. I think we just need to do more to try close that gap is all and leaving three teams out front can be dangerous if one or two of them fall away we've a problem, if Pal had been relegated last year it could have been a walk in the park for Rathvilly and there's no guarantee Pal would have come back up. EO have lost a few really important players so they could fall out of contention.
Laois club football regressed because of the Portlaoise 9 in a row team is my point, the gap increased, others fell away, eventually Portlaoise fell back too but the damage is done, the standard has fallen which gives way to the current struggles their county team face." On the flip side, if Palatine had been relegated, they'd have won the IFC easily enough and they could have a right go at winning Leinster (maybe even an All-Ireland).
I don't think any team should fear relegation when there's the chance of a really exciting provincial run by winning the lower grade.
As for Eire Og, yes they lost players, but they have a conveyor belt, so it will sort itself out eventually.
Regarding Leix... well I am not sure it's because of Portlaoise. It's more to do with a confluence of systemic factors: the decline of the schools, emigration from rural areas, migration trends and the fact the largest town isn't properly serviced by GAA.
Carlow had a dominant Eire Og in the 1990s. They were so far ahead that literally only one team could give them any sort of a game - Rathvilly.
When Eire Og eventually ran of steam, the O'Hanrahan's came and won a Leinster of their own.
Eire Og's success brought the standard up in Carlow. Other teams had to take it more seriously to reach their level. The Blues would never hit those levels if their town rivals hadn't showed the way. Eire Og also inspired Palatine to get their act together.
CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 706 - 07/10/2024 12:03:56
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Interesting to read the different ideas on the championships. Personally I'd stick with an 8 team senior to keep it viable. It's an amatuer game and clubs have to be given a reasonable chance to play senior.
Where I would make changes is lower down. I'd go with an enlarged intermediate. 16 teams 4 x4 with the top two in each group going into intermediate quarters and bottom 2 going into junior quarters. I'd seed it on current system so you will have two inter and two junior. Fenagh myshall clonmore tullow have all won junior in recent years and maintained status with two going senior so the gap is between intermediate and senior not junior and intermediate which I think are a similar standard.
How to help the yoyo from senior to intermediate is a tougher one. You could promote 2 each year potentially where the winner of the intermediate final plays the the loser of relegation final and the runner up plays relagation winner. So tinryland would face k/c and clonmore would face fenagh. Or just have a winner of intermediate vs loser of relagation.
Just on the two county finals that were decided over the weekend. I felt the standard of the inter was very low. Kildavin are the weakest team I've seen in a final in some time. Fenagh far better but won't survive at senior with such a limited panel.
Junior final was tight as expected ballon were slightly better but it looked like their poor shooting would undo them until the penalty. Leighlin brought a huge support with them but have struggled to keep their league form going where they were very dominant I think they changed their style a bit as the year went on and maybe that wasn't the best idea. They only lost one game all year and that was Sunday you would have to feel for them.
Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1651 - 08/10/2024 10:37:27
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Minor finals were on last night. A decent crowd in doctor cullen for the 1A and 1B finals with the
1B saw a repeat of last years final with rathvilly coming our on top this time, they lead from start to finish and while Tinryland will rue some missed chances including a double penalty miss rathvilly had some missed chances of their own and i felt their greater work rate over all was deserving of the two point victory.
1A saw eire og going for 5 in a row, and they raced into a 5 point lead but palatine hit back with 1 07 unanswered scores of their own. A goal after halftime for eire og brought them back into it but pal were able to keep their momentum going and kicked some nice scores eire og foaled again to bring it to a 1 point game but pal held their nerve to hang on for a 1 13 to 3 05 victory.
A small bit of controversy at the end a free from eire og and a pal block where the ref blew the final whistle just before an eire og chap rifled the ball to the pal net. But I feel pal were deserving winners. Some unsavory behaviour near the tunnel at the end to add to the occasion.
Was anyone at the 2A final? I would have thought clonmore would win that but mlr won by a point. Not sure if there was a 2b final
Palatine are one step away from a clean sweep of underage titles this year with 14s and 18s already secured and an upcoming final in the 16s againsta St martins.
Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1651 - 11/10/2024 09:21:55
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Quite an ending last night in the 'A' minor football final between Eire Og and Palatine !
Pal looked the better outfit with Eire Og depending a lot on Coakley in the forwards.
Eire Og were certainly not very happy at the end with the ending.
Pal were 2 points up well into injury time and Eire Og had a free which eventually ended up in the net but cruciallyt just after the referee blew his whistle for full time.! High drama in NCP!
carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1841 - 11/10/2024 09:36:26
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Replying To carlowman: "Quite an ending last night in the 'A' minor football final between Eire Og and Palatine !
Pal looked the better outfit with Eire Og depending a lot on Coakley in the forwards.
Eire Og were certainly not very happy at the end with the ending.
Pal were 2 points up well into injury time and Eire Og had a free which eventually ended up in the net but cruciallyt just after the referee blew his whistle for full time.! High drama in NCP!" Just watched it and I'm no Eire og fan but that was shocking refereeing.
Nobody blows up a match in that situation.
carlovia (None) - Posts: 1522 - 12/10/2024 15:09:53
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After this evenings county final replay I think Carlow's club football is in a reasonably good state, if its not can any of you experts predict with some degree of accuracy what two clubs will contest next years county final, no, I didn't think you could.
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 3001 - 12/10/2024 22:03:58
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Eire og v Rathvilly/Pal
Decent Championship but realistically only 3 teams can win the senior. Since Old Leighlin last won it in 2013 no one outside the big 3 have won it or will win it in the near future I'm afraid
carlo (Carlow) - Posts: 228 - 13/10/2024 09:16:26
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Replying To supersub15: "After this evenings county final replay I think Carlow's club football is in a reasonably good state, if its not can any of you experts predict with some degree of accuracy what two clubs will contest next years county final, no, I didn't think you could." It'll probably be between EO, Pal and Rathvilly anyway if history is to tell us anything. I think Pal's season just caught up with them yesterday, they played Rathvilly three times and EO twice, all tough close games and just looked to run out of ideas and steam. Would love to see Rathvilly have a real go at Leinster, they've great physicality, speed and are well set up. Outside of EO our county champions haven't done well in Leinster in the last few years so it'll be interesting to see how Rathvilly fare this year.
CRTW (Carlow) - Posts: 14 - 13/10/2024 10:31:27
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Eamon O'Hara on RTE1 with the intrepid Des Cahill. A few glowing sentences about Mohill and B'more lads, their commitment, desire, ability etc.,
Would you be interested in the County job Eamon purrs Des….
I'm ambitious says Eamon and have managed Ballagh and Tourlestrane as well as 3 years with Mohill…..
All he has to do is nod his head sagely, sigh and say Enda - I'll dig you out of a hole here.
It must be noted that we're only a game away from a Connacht final next year - there's surely 70 minutes in us…..
Boxtyeater (Leitrim) - Posts: 709 - 13/10/2024 14:29:41
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Looks like you took a wrong turn - somewhere around Athlone.
CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 706 - 13/10/2024 19:36:13
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With the championships now over, who deserves a call up to the senior panel?
CW88 (Carlow) - Posts: 28 - 13/10/2024 21:54:44
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Good final last night. The quality was a lot better than last Sunday. Rathvilly seemed to have learned a bit more from the drawn game and were much tighter in the backs this time and just a greater energy about them this time. The second Rathvilly goal was the deciding moment. Foley reffed it well also so fair play to him.
Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1651 - 13/10/2024 22:15:31
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