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Replying To greenfan: "I believe Tyrone have adopted the academy structure for a good few years now and they have had plenty Underage success. Also Derry are doing the same and it seems to be paying off." I understand that its better or more cohesive than development squads approach, but I I think we need to be getting ahead of the curve, not following or copying a system that was ahead of the curve 8 years ago or more for Kerry and then Tyrone and will soon by superseded by something new anyways.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1343 - 14/02/2023 13:16:59
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Replying To KerrymanStuckInDonegal: "Kerry GAA credits it's five consecutive minor championships to the academy system and development squads seeing as they hadn't won a minor in the twenty years previous (94).
I know from first hand that players who have been involved in development squads have really benefited from the higher level of coaching and playing at a higher level.
Big problem with a strong player in a club is that sometimes they go into a county panel and aren't used to playing in a county team with 25 players of a high level, used to doing most of the work themselves or one or two other players on their club team. Development squads gives them a taste of that environment. That's why the divisional (amalgamated) teams in Kerry are such as success, players get to play with and against a higher standard of player.
Donegal will never bring in the divisional (amalgamation) model but they need to stick with the academy / development teams. It will take a few years for the results to be seen but this whole thing with lacey and the coaches quiting could put the whole process back a decade" Can you give me an overview of the amalgamated divisional Kerry system? Is it regional?
I heard about numerous times over the years and never full understood how it works or how clubs feel about it. I remember hearing it was accredited with giving Junior players a shot at making the Kerry team.
I think due to the geographical layout of Donegal it would be good to see the County divided into North, South, East and West Donegal at some point every year, for a mini 3 or 4 game tournament. Even if it only featured players excluded from the County Panel, it would certainly be a showcase.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1343 - 14/02/2023 13:24:53
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Replying To Commodore: "I understand that its better or more cohesive than development squads approach, but I I think we need to be getting ahead of the curve, not following or copying a system that was ahead of the curve 8 years ago or more for Kerry and then Tyrone and will soon by superseded by something new anyways." It's not going to go out of date that quickly. It's about doing it properly and having finance structures all above board.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8386 - 14/02/2023 14:36:10
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Replying To Commodore: "Can you give me an overview of the amalgamated divisional Kerry system? Is it regional?
I heard about numerous times over the years and never full understood how it works or how clubs feel about it. I remember hearing it was accredited with giving Junior players a shot at making the Kerry team.
I think due to the geographical layout of Donegal it would be good to see the County divided into North, South, East and West Donegal at some point every year, for a mini 3 or 4 game tournament. Even if it only featured players excluded from the County Panel, it would certainly be a showcase." I know it's taken very seriously in Kerry. I read an interview by Darran O'Sullivan last year and he was talking about his days playing with mid-Kerry and how it helped him in his county career.
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/hes-best-athlete-ive-ever-played-kingdoms-one-got-away-won-mid-kerry-08-275223
I wonder how long has that system been going in Kerry? I assume it's only junior and intermediate clubs who can propose players for their divisional team. Would it be a total non-runner for something like that in Donegal?
Off the top of my head you could have a
South Donegal team consisting of players from Naomh Columba, Naomh Ultan, Naomh Bríd, Pettigo & Bundoran.
North Donegal would be Downings, Fanad Gaels, Letterkenny Gaels, Newton
East Donegal - Red Hughs, Robert Emmets, Lifford, Convoy
West Donegal - Na Rossa and Naomh Mhuire
Inishowen - Malin, Buncrana, Moville, Naomh Padraig
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9765 - 14/02/2023 15:00:41
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Replying To Lockjaw: "I know it's taken very seriously in Kerry. I read an interview by Darran O'Sullivan last year and he was talking about his days playing with mid-Kerry and how it helped him in his county career.
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/hes-best-athlete-ive-ever-played-kingdoms-one-got-away-won-mid-kerry-08-275223
I wonder how long has that system been going in Kerry? I assume it's only junior and intermediate clubs who can propose players for their divisional team. Would it be a total non-runner for something like that in Donegal?
Off the top of my head you could have a
South Donegal team consisting of players from Naomh Columba, Naomh Ultan, Naomh Bríd, Pettigo & Bundoran.
North Donegal would be Downings, Fanad Gaels, Letterkenny Gaels, Newton
East Donegal - Red Hughs, Robert Emmets, Lifford, Convoy
West Donegal - Na Rossa and Naomh Mhuire
Inishowen - Malin, Buncrana, Moville, Naomh Padraig" Forgot Carndonagh in the Inishowen team. Apologies if I've forgotten any other junior/intermediate clubs as well.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9765 - 14/02/2023 16:09:12
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Replying To Lockjaw: "I know it's taken very seriously in Kerry. I read an interview by Darran O'Sullivan last year and he was talking about his days playing with mid-Kerry and how it helped him in his county career.
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/hes-best-athlete-ive-ever-played-kingdoms-one-got-away-won-mid-kerry-08-275223
I wonder how long has that system been going in Kerry? I assume it's only junior and intermediate clubs who can propose players for their divisional team. Would it be a total non-runner for something like that in Donegal?
Off the top of my head you could have a
South Donegal team consisting of players from Naomh Columba, Naomh Ultan, Naomh Bríd, Pettigo & Bundoran.
North Donegal would be Downings, Fanad Gaels, Letterkenny Gaels, Newton
East Donegal - Red Hughs, Robert Emmets, Lifford, Convoy
West Donegal - Na Rossa and Naomh Mhuire
Inishowen - Malin, Buncrana, Moville, Naomh Padraig" It would be interesting to further explore how it could work or could be adapted to Donegal.
First it would be good to understand the Kerry system better.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1343 - 14/02/2023 16:33:52
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Replying To Commodore: "It would be interesting to further explore how it could work or could be adapted to Donegal.
First it would be good to understand the Kerry system better." I think I'm right in saying that Kerry only have 8 "senior" clubs. Then they have the regional teams plus whatever team won the intermediate the year before which makes up their senior championship.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9765 - 14/02/2023 17:04:20
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Replying To Commodore: "It would be interesting to further explore how it could work or could be adapted to Donegal.
First it would be good to understand the Kerry system better." I would love to see this happen. Using this model 8 current senior clubs would also drop to intermediate. Allowing the Senior Champ become 16 with 8 divisional teams and 8 clubs.
beidhmeanseo (Donegal) - Posts: 143 - 14/02/2023 17:23:29
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Replying To Lockjaw: "I think I'm right in saying that Kerry only have 8 "senior" clubs. Then they have the regional teams plus whatever team won the intermediate the year before which makes up their senior championship." I'm assuming the Kerry Senior Championship must start later than Junior or Intermediate Championships to facilitate the regional teams later.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1343 - 14/02/2023 17:25:33
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Kerry Senior Club Championship
8 Teams : Drawn at random, 2 groups of 4. One Home Game, One Away Game and one Neutral. Top two in groups in Semi, Top team get home advantage. Bottom two teams into Relegation playoff to Intermediate.
Kerry Inter Championship
16 Teams, Relegated team from Senior and the three semi-finalists from year previous are seeded. 4 Groups of Four. One Home, One Away, One Neutral. Top two in each group into Quarter final. Bottom 4 teams play in a relegation semi and relegation final.
Same process for Junior Premier (Junior A) 16 Teams and Junior (Junior B) 16 Teams
Kerry County Championship
16 Teams
8 Senior Clubs (Dr. Crokes, Rathmore, Spa, Kenmare, Kerins O'Rahillys, Templenoe, Na Gael, Dingle)
8 Divisonal Teams
Divisonal Teams are all the Intermediate, Junior and Junior B clubs in a geographical area...
1.South Kerry,
2.East Kerry,
3.West Kerry,
4.Mid Kerry,
5.St. Brendans (Tralee area), (Austin Stacks relegated to intermediate this year, they have to play with st brendans)
6.Shannon Rangers (North Kerry),
7.Feale Rangers (Between Tralees area and North Kerrys area),
8.St Kierans (North-East Kerry Area)
four groups of four, top two in each go to the quarter finals.
There has been divisonal football in Kerry since atleast 1925.. Tralee Division won it that year.
The thinking behind it is that by allowing players from weaker and smaller clubs combine agasint the stronger ones, you get a better sense of that Junior player who could be also playing divison 4 or 5 with his club. If the player did well in a divisional team, then better chance of getting recognised. Also in a lot of cases a player could be the greatest corner back or full back in the county but his club could make him play midfield because they need him there..... in most cases, you are picked in your strongest position in divisonal games.
Its a great system but there are flaws to it too.... appoint the wrong manager and the best team may not be the one picked (politics) also some times some divisonal teams are extremely strong. East Kerry at the moment, South Kerry in the 2000's and East Kerry in the late 90's were extremely stacked teams.
I cant see it happneing in Donegal but it would be intresting. Would (Glen/Ardara/Killybegs) divisonal team give Kilcar or Glenties or Eunans a good game?
KerrymanStuckInDonegal (Kerry) - Posts: 271 - 14/02/2023 18:32:20
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Replying To Commodore: "I'm assuming the Kerry Senior Championship must start later than Junior or Intermediate Championships to facilitate the regional teams later." The play the Club championships first up to the final , then they play the "County" championship and then all the finals are played at the end. This is a bit of a balls, in 2016 Kenmare District (Templenoe (Inter), Kenmare (Inter), Kilgravan (Jun B) and Tousist (Jun B) got to the "COUNTY FINAL" verus Dr. Crokes from Killarney. Dr Crokes won the game handy enough. The following weekend Templenoe and Kenmare played each other in the County Intermediate Final....teamates one week, opponents the next.
KerrymanStuckInDonegal (Kerry) - Posts: 271 - 14/02/2023 18:38:16
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Never say never. With rule changes around parent clubs and transfers etc it will become harder and harder for rural clubs to survive on their own.
It's not outside the realms of possibility that in the not-too-distant future there could be scope to have divisional teams for the Rosses, in-through, Inishowen, Finn Valley etc.
SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 452 - 14/02/2023 19:59:11
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Replying To KerrymanStuckInDonegal: "Kerry Senior Club Championship
8 Teams : Drawn at random, 2 groups of 4. One Home Game, One Away Game and one Neutral. Top two in groups in Semi, Top team get home advantage. Bottom two teams into Relegation playoff to Intermediate.
Kerry Inter Championship
16 Teams, Relegated team from Senior and the three semi-finalists from year previous are seeded. 4 Groups of Four. One Home, One Away, One Neutral. Top two in each group into Quarter final. Bottom 4 teams play in a relegation semi and relegation final.
Same process for Junior Premier (Junior A) 16 Teams and Junior (Junior B) 16 Teams
Kerry County Championship
16 Teams
8 Senior Clubs (Dr. Crokes, Rathmore, Spa, Kenmare, Kerins O'Rahillys, Templenoe, Na Gael, Dingle)
8 Divisonal Teams
Divisonal Teams are all the Intermediate, Junior and Junior B clubs in a geographical area...
1.South Kerry,
2.East Kerry,
3.West Kerry,
4.Mid Kerry,
5.St. Brendans (Tralee area), (Austin Stacks relegated to intermediate this year, they have to play with st brendans)
6.Shannon Rangers (North Kerry),
7.Feale Rangers (Between Tralees area and North Kerrys area),
8.St Kierans (North-East Kerry Area)
four groups of four, top two in each go to the quarter finals.
There has been divisonal football in Kerry since atleast 1925.. Tralee Division won it that year.
The thinking behind it is that by allowing players from weaker and smaller clubs combine agasint the stronger ones, you get a better sense of that Junior player who could be also playing divison 4 or 5 with his club. If the player did well in a divisional team, then better chance of getting recognised. Also in a lot of cases a player could be the greatest corner back or full back in the county but his club could make him play midfield because they need him there..... in most cases, you are picked in your strongest position in divisonal games.
Its a great system but there are flaws to it too.... appoint the wrong manager and the best team may not be the one picked (politics) also some times some divisonal teams are extremely strong. East Kerry at the moment, South Kerry in the 2000's and East Kerry in the late 90's were extremely stacked teams.
I cant see it happneing in Donegal but it would be intresting. Would (Glen/Ardara/Killybegs) divisonal team give Kilcar or Glenties or Eunans a good game?" So is it the winners of the senior club championship that go on to repesent Kerry in the Munster Club?
Is the county championship deemed to be more important within Kerry given that the divisional teams are involved as well? It's a very interesting concept. My own opinion on it is that if the most successful county in the country are doing it then it must obviously have some merit, and other counties are missing a trick by not adopting a similar approach.
It's hard to say how good/bad Donegal divisional teams would be until it was tried out I suppose. I think the key thing would be to see how much appetite there would be for it. Might be hard to overcome old rivalries and politics. As you say, good strong managers with integrity would be needed to ensure there are no claims of bias/hidden agendas.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9765 - 15/02/2023 11:01:48
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Replying To Lockjaw: "So is it the winners of the senior club championship that go on to repesent Kerry in the Munster Club?
Is the county championship deemed to be more important within Kerry given that the divisional teams are involved as well? It's a very interesting concept. My own opinion on it is that if the most successful county in the country are doing it then it must obviously have some merit, and other counties are missing a trick by not adopting a similar approach.
It's hard to say how good/bad Donegal divisional teams would be until it was tried out I suppose. I think the key thing would be to see how much appetite there would be for it. Might be hard to overcome old rivalries and politics. As you say, good strong managers with integrity would be needed to ensure there are no claims of bias/hidden agendas." If a Club team wins the "County" Championship with the amalgamated teams they go on to represent Kerry in the Munster / All Ireland club.
If a divisional team wins the "County" championship then the winners of the "Club" championship represent Kerry.
The only way it would work id that in Kerry you only play 11 league games, only play each other once, not home and away like Donegal.
The "County" championship is treated as the more important one. Whoever wins the "County" championship get to nominate captain for the following year. East Kerry won it so they nominated David Clifford.
It backfired on Kerry in 2001 against Meath, Dr Crokes won the "County" championship and nominated Eoin Brosnan as captain even though he wasn't making the team and was only just turned 18.....All the talk about the captaincy murked the waters before Meath game which didn't help, got the biggest tanking I ever seen in my life
KerrymanStuckInDonegal (Kerry) - Posts: 271 - 15/02/2023 12:48:05
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We are not too bad in this county at bringing through players from smaller clubs to the county team.The 1992 team had Matt Gallagher,Martin Shovelin and Declan Bonner.In 2012 we had Ryan Bradley and David Walsh.Looking at the 26 for our game against Tyrone the last I counted 10 that didn't play Senior club championship..We ended up with 5 of the back 6 from non senior teams.Whether that is a good thing or not it can't be said that players from smaller clubs are not getting a chance.
gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 1152 - 15/02/2023 14:05:56
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Replying To KerrymanStuckInDonegal: "If a Club team wins the "County" Championship with the amalgamated teams they go on to represent Kerry in the Munster / All Ireland club.
If a divisional team wins the "County" championship then the winners of the "Club" championship represent Kerry.
The only way it would work id that in Kerry you only play 11 league games, only play each other once, not home and away like Donegal.
The "County" championship is treated as the more important one. Whoever wins the "County" championship get to nominate captain for the following year. East Kerry won it so they nominated David Clifford.
It backfired on Kerry in 2001 against Meath, Dr Crokes won the "County" championship and nominated Eoin Brosnan as captain even though he wasn't making the team and was only just turned 18.....All the talk about the captaincy murked the waters before Meath game which didn't help, got the biggest tanking I ever seen in my life" I guess in Donegal it would work something like this... (obviously there will be some debate as to which clubs are in what section, but just as an example and apologies again if I've forgotten any clubs)
Senior Club Championship:
1. Naomh Conaill
2. St Eunans
3. Kilcar
4. Gaoth Dobhair
5. St. Michaels
6. Glenswilly
7. Killybegs
8. Dungloe
Intermediate Championship:
1. Bundoran
2. Aodh Ruadh
3. Four Masters
4. St. Nauls
5. Killybegs
6. Ardara
7. Naomh Columba
8. Cloch Chionn Fhaola
9. Fanad Gaels
10. Downings
11. Glenfin
12. MacCumhaills
13. Milford
14. Buncrana
15. Termon
16. Malin
Junior Championship:
1. Naomh Ultan
2. Naomh Brid
3. Pettigo
4. Na Rossa
5. Naomh Mhuire
6. Red Hughs
7. Robert Emmets
8. Lifford
9. Convoy
10. Naomh Colmcille
11. Burt
12. Moville
13. Naomh Padraig
14. Carndonagh
15. Iorras
Based on the Kerry example, the top 8 teams would play the senior championship.
Then the county championship would include the same 8 teams plus whatever divisional teams were created & the previous year's Intermediate champions. Creating the divisional teams would be the tricky part. How many (thinking we'd need 3 at least) and which teams would be part of each would be very interesting. You'd also have to deal with some clubs considering themselves above playing Intermediate but that's another story.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9765 - 15/02/2023 14:21:29
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Replying To gunman: "We are not too bad in this county at bringing through players from smaller clubs to the county team.The 1992 team had Matt Gallagher,Martin Shovelin and Declan Bonner.In 2012 we had Ryan Bradley and David Walsh.Looking at the 26 for our game against Tyrone the last I counted 10 that didn't play Senior club championship..We ended up with 5 of the back 6 from non senior teams.Whether that is a good thing or not it can't be said that players from smaller clubs are not getting a chance." True, and I was just going to say something similar along those lines. But I think the Kerry man made a good point about those divisional teams. You might have a class corner back from a junior club, but his club might need him to operate at midfield so he's more involved. The divisional team would have more options, so their manager could play the corner back in his preferred position against better quality corner forwards. Then when your quality corner back goes up to the county panel he has more games under his belt played in his best position.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9765 - 15/02/2023 14:45:52
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Karl Lacey gone now nearly 2 weeks and coaches gone last week. Not a word of communication from the county board to the parents, the clubs or the supporters of Donegal GAA. It is also very noticeable how this has been dealt with on local radio and the local media. It's like we are living in North Korea.
ryan (Donegal) - Posts: 748 - 15/02/2023 15:35:20
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Replying To ryan: "Karl Lacey gone now nearly 2 weeks and coaches gone last week. Not a word of communication from the county board to the parents, the clubs or the supporters of Donegal GAA. It is also very noticeable how this has been dealt with on local radio and the local media. It's like we are living in North Korea." They don't believe in communication, only a behind the scenes type until they can attempt to control the narrative publicly, but they're not even able to do that. North Korea is better run in that regard.
Donegal_abroad (Donegal) - Posts: 1414 - 15/02/2023 17:58:44
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news coming through of a serious injurt to top donegal forward leaving him out for rest of season.
jacktheboy (Donegal) - Posts: 478 - 15/02/2023 18:44:49
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