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If the ref has no bearing on the outcome of a game, how come Brian Cody, the greatest manager of them all, castigated a certain ref in public and tried to persuade the selection committee not to select him when KK were playing? In a very tight game an incident or decision can lead to the winning or losing of it. To say that the ref's decisions or indecisions, be they intentional or not, have no bearing on the outcome of a game is not credible. You say you don't recall any decision by a ref that cost Tipp a game. Well, I recall a famous penalty awarded to KK v Tipp in Croker that Henry Shefflin scored and I tell you there were thousands of Tipp supporters, you must have been the exception, who were very sore about the ref's decision, believing it cost them the game. Re the 2016 AISF between Tipp and Galway that you reference, you say the ref had no bearing on the outcome but instead suggest a hook on Cooney was the game changer! I think any objective observer would conclude that Joe Canning's injury, having to leave the field of play, had a bigger bearing on the outcome. He was pushed in the back about 40 yards from goal which caused him a serious injury and to add insult to injury the ref didn't even give Galway a free. Tipp won by 1 point. The following year Canning scored the winning point in the dying seconds of the game. There were big games that Galway lost because they weren't good enough and that's fair enough. No complaints. However, when a game is very tight there's often a significant incident that goes in favour of one team and against the other. I recall for instance Fergal Healy's great goal late in the 2001 AIF and it being disallowed instantly for taking 4 steps! In the 1990 AIF a Cork forward took 9 steps and his goal was allowed. I'm using these examples for illustrative purposes only, not wishing to go back over or even be reminded of them at this stage! No point complaining unless you're a manager, a manager with clout at that! baire (Galway) - Posts: 1849 - 25/05/2023 09:59:50 2481437 Link 1 |
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To be fair you could have a point there - I forgot about that! I definitely agree that "croneyism", "cute-h**rism" and "who you know, not what you know" is alive and well in the GAA!
tommy k (Galway) - Posts: 3470 - 25/05/2023 10:21:40 2481445 Link 0 |
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I'm too young to remember any Munster campaigns, but I'd suspect they belonged to an era when it was a challenge to get enough 'NCT'd' vehicles on the road to bring a squad down to Munster, and oh of course, get them back too!! After that, the old adage 'Munster team, Munster venue, Munster referee, what did you expect?' likely applied a lot of the time, or certainly kicked in, any time that it needed to kick in. I'm speculating of course, because Galway hurling didn't exist for me prior to 1975.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3911 - 25/05/2023 11:01:55 2481460 Link 1 |
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Don't worry OTM when Galwya hurlers weren't winning those hurling finals or getting to finals, we had our footballers to fall back on much of the time whereas Limerick had nothing to fall back on for 45 years after 1973 and 40 years before 1973! lol
tommy k (Galway) - Posts: 3470 - 25/05/2023 12:06:51 2481479 Link 1 |
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Apologies meant to say 43 years before 1973!
tommy k (Galway) - Posts: 3470 - 25/05/2023 12:09:47 2481481 Link 1 |
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Ben, just a friendly word, NCTs or Health and Safety were not even heard of in the sixties. Huge crowds still got to matches. I would also disagree with your contention that Munster refs favours Munste teams can certainly be disproved. Remember Sheehy lambasting Johnny Murphy, because he 'favoured' Galway. Ben, that was the usual rubbish. At the time Limerick would have eaten Tipp in the first course, before beating a decent team, but would have been wary of Galway. IHowever I could point to the fact that Wadding, D Kirwan and John Moloney have all rode us against Leinster teams. But overall we beat ourselves in all those games. As I say always it is too easy to blame refs. Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4471 - 25/05/2023 13:03:22 2481497 Link 1 |
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Baire thats a fairly laughable reply to be honest. Brian Cody was a bully in terms of influencing everyone including referees. Just because he was the greatest manager it doesnt mean he didnt know how to play that game. I already referenced the 2009 penalty in an earlier post... If you think that tackle on Canning was that bad then you know nothing about hurling - a yellow card?!! Even if it was an intentional push - show me an example of a push getting a yellow card in cship hurling! The dogs in the street know Canning carried a hamstring injury into that game and he has said that himself. "Any objective observer" says a Galway man. Its funny how JJs hook is recognised as winning KK an All Ireland but its Cannings injury that won Tipp the AI in 2016 despite only scoring 3 scores from play across 4 cship games that year. It was by far his worst year for Galway. tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 25/05/2023 13:51:48 2481516 Link 1 |
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I had you down as an older poster Pope Benedict! Making me feel old if you think Galway might have been in Munster since the NCT came in in 2000!
tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 25/05/2023 13:54:51 2481518 Link 1 |
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Probably self evident that teams don't always beat themselves in games that they've 'been rode' in. You're acknowledging that referees 'ride' certain teams on occasion. Seems obvious to me that these referees alter the outcomes of a percentage of these matches.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3911 - 25/05/2023 13:59:57 2481521 Link 1 |
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I wish I was as confident as you. I admit Dublin haven't been brilliant but they always give Galway a hard time. With Donahue there now I expect the best from Dublin. Galway have great flow with some teams even when they lose but they seem to be very stagnant when playing Dublin whether it's due to tight marking or physicality or whatever. Not sure why.
Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 2282 - 25/05/2023 14:19:55 2481527 Link 0 |
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You may have jumped to a few wrong conclusions there, tiobraid. I stuck the term NCTd in inverted commas earlier as a synonym for 'roadworthy' really. I didn't expect a history lesson on Health and Safety from OT in response, but then again OT is a historian of some renown in these parts. I'm certainly roughly aware of when the NCT became a statutory requirement.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3911 - 25/05/2023 14:41:00 2481537 Link 1 |
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I will tell you what's laughable, if not disengenous, to claim that referees or officials don't have a say in the final outcome of a tight game. I never said or suggested that the push on Canning was a yellow card. Canning was pushed in the back, fell and was injured in the fall. It was a free, in a scorable position, but the ref didn't give it. You're casting aspersions on Micheál Donoghue now, suggesting he picked an injured player to play an AISF. He may not have been playing as well that year but Canning had the ability to change the course of a game in an instant. You're great with your sweeping statements i.e "its Cannings injury that won Tipp the AI in 2016". Cop on, it was an AISF. As for the objective observer, objectivity is the fruit of honest subjectivity. I try to recall these incidents as honestly as I can but I don't expect a Tipp man to believe me! baire (Galway) - Posts: 1849 - 25/05/2023 15:37:42 2481559 Link 1 |
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I think we are always going to worry a bit more about games when our own county is playing and I do hope it's a close game but from what I've seen of Dublin I genuinely don't see them getting close to Galway. Even the intensity of their oaky seems to be way below what you'd expect. Galway are a seasoned and physical side. I hope I'm proven wrong!
tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 25/05/2023 16:07:52 2481567 Link 1 |
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Galway aren't that 'seasoned' at all. They've relatively young inexperienced players on every line of their team.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3911 - 25/05/2023 16:17:39 2481571 Link 1 |
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I wouldn't disagree about the relative standings of Dublin and Galway, but the intensity and aggression has upped a notch. Main problem is a weak inside line that has not clicked despite potential, and lack of goals. But in fairness, they've shown good character and fight to retrieve what might have been a lost battle in Belfast - and one they should have won on balance, saw Westmeath off comfortably and while Wexford may well have been shooting a lot of wides, much of that was due to good defending and forcing them into shots from poor positions out the field. Never looked liked either scoring goals in Kilkenny nor winning but it was much improved performance on last 3/4 times we've played them. Sunday is a bonus really. Chance to make a Leinster final having already secured what was probably optimum target for MD's first year rebuilding. Galway rightly favourites but am quietly confident of a strong showing from Dublin. whether that be enough is another thing. BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3288 - 25/05/2023 16:53:46 2481584 Link 1 |
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Ben well in all fairness mistakes teams make alter the outcome of games as well. One of the worst decisions I ever saw on a GAA ironically happened at a football field and the ref concerned was a Galway man and the leading ref of his day, Mick Curley. In the 2004 MF Replay in Killarney LK were seven points up, after having played into a stiff breeze and half time approaching. They Mick gave a Kerry a. penalty , which friend and foe agreed was a very wrong decision. The goal was scored, but while some of our players were arguing with the ref Kerry got in for another soft one, due to our side not knowing how to deal with a bit of adversity. Such lack of concentration on Limerick's part cost them that match every bit as much as Curley"s mistake. My point is a ref will make a mistake-everyone will- but a team, especially one that was winning, should have been able to deal with that Anyway every county blames the ref was wrong when they are narrowly beaten.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4471 - 25/05/2023 16:59:18 2481587 Link 1 |
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Simple logic agrees with you in that Galway destroyed Antrim while Dublin only drew with them but of course sports is almost never logical. Dublin are due for that breakout match and I just hope they don't FIND THEIR WAY against us.
Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 2282 - 25/05/2023 17:05:22 2481592 Link 0 |
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Baire, every county feels hard done if they lose a close game. I remember a famous retort in a case where people were complaining about a ref. In 01 Barry Foley cut a sideline over the bar in Pairc Ui Caoimh to essentially knock out Cork of the Championship- no back door before Provincial Final up to that year. The next day at a famous North Premises, where games were always replayed on a Monday Morning, the Cork crowd were complaining, as ever, that were hard done by. A West Limerick born Medic in the town made the trenchant comment 'from a Limerick viewpoint, give me a biro and a page of foolscap and I will describe for you Referees and grief'. However, once when complaining about a disallowed goal for Limerick, my opponent posed an interesting question-'if ye had got that score, would ye have won anyway'. It was a good question. Good teams always bounce back from bad breaks and maybe he was right. We never know for sure if some of these decisions had gone our way would it have changed the result. Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4471 - 25/05/2023 23:25:21 2481633 Link 1 |
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Baire, every county feels hard done if they lose a close game. I remember a famous retort in a case where people were complaining about a ref. In 01 Barry Foley cut a sideline over the bar in Pairc Ui Caoimh to essentially knock out Cork of the Championship- no back door before Provincial Final up to that year. The next day at a famous North Premises, where games were always replayed on a Monday Morning, the Cork crowd were complaining, as ever, that were hard done by. A West Limerick born Medic in the town made the trenchant comment 'from a Limerick viewpoint, give me a biro and a page of foolscap and I will describe for you Referees and grief'. However, once when complaining about a disallowed goal for Limerick, my opponent posed an interesting question-'if ye had got that score, would ye have won anyway'. It was a good question. Good teams always bounce back from bad breaks and maybe he was right. We never know for sure if some of these decisions had gone our way would it have changed the result. Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4471 - 25/05/2023 23:25:53 2481634 Link 1 |
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Look Ben, refs make mistakes and they will always be highlighted. However if you look at the players performance and those of Management it is often easy to be seen that their mistakes often play a huge part in losing games that might otherwise have been won if those Parties had done their job right. For example in 01 some Galway People blamed Pat O.Connor as if an Ahane Man would ever go out of his way to favour Tipp. However the question that should have been asked was 'how the hell did Mark O'Leary, a player who did so little before or since that game get 2.2 from Wing Forward, when the Marquee Forwards of the the Tipp were all reasonably well contained?
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4471 - 25/05/2023 23:43:29 2481637 Link 1 |