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Replying To Onfor15: "What are 'all other issues with those suggestions'?" Main one would be the general standard of adult hurling would fall. This would impact badly on our Senior Intercounty team
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14127 - 26/09/2022 10:45:38
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Replying To Pikeman96: "So what if Junior, Junior A and Junior B are delayed by a week, because they don't have provincial championships? I'll tell you so what. Having any or all of them delayed by a week also delays the start of the football championships. So long as there are any dual players involved at all, football championships can't commence until all hurling championships have been competed.
Rather than me trying to find problems where there are none, you're refusing to see the problems that would be there.
Anyway, to go back to something somebody else asked a while ago - what exact "problem" are you trying to solve by reducing grades from 12 teams to ten? There hasn't been any clamour anywhere else to reduce the number of teams per grade. On the contrary, there have been a number of calls to put them up to 16.
Only logical reason for reducing number of teams per grade would be if it helped streamline the championships by meaning they need less rounds of fixtures to complete. But yours doesn't do that. Best case scenario, it still takes exactly the same. Worst case, it takes a week longer." I have advocated many times here for a return to hurling and football on alternate weeks. Doing that removes the pressure on the lower grades to be finished at the same time as the higher grades.
So I'll say it again, so what if junior, junior a and junior b are delayed by a week due to byes.
So another non-existent problem under my proposal.
This particular to and fro started when you pointed out what you thought were all the problems with my proposal. I think I have more than adequately rebutted them.
However, as I admitted a few posts back I know it's unlikely to materialise so we'd be best to leave it at that for the 2 groups of 5 idea.
Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 533 - 26/09/2022 11:11:55
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Disgraceful scenes on whiterock Hill yesterday.
Wasn't at the match but I believe the referee was assaulted. Yes the county board and the guardi will tell us that it will be thoroughly investigated and action will be taken. We all know though that the penalty will be no more than a slap on the wrist. Maybe a 5 or 6 match ban for the individual concerned. Can it be stopped? No, but if a life ban was handed out it might curtail it somewhat.
Of course a life ban would be hard if not impossible to police. Who would do the policing?
In my opinion the best solution would be to give a very heavy fine to the club concerned and get rid of the person who committed the crime.
It's high time that the gaa and other sporting bodies got tough and with the support from the top brass take action similar to the above.
If we continue with the status quo then someone, someday will be killed.
Magpie2 (Wexford) - Posts: 386 - 26/09/2022 11:27:08
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Replying To Magpie2: "Disgraceful scenes on whiterock Hill yesterday.
Wasn't at the match but I believe the referee was assaulted. Yes the county board and the guardi will tell us that it will be thoroughly investigated and action will be taken. We all know though that the penalty will be no more than a slap on the wrist. Maybe a 5 or 6 match ban for the individual concerned. Can it be stopped? No, but if a life ban was handed out it might curtail it somewhat.
Of course a life ban would be hard if not impossible to police. Who would do the policing?
In my opinion the best solution would be to give a very heavy fine to the club concerned and get rid of the person who committed the crime.
It's high time that the gaa and other sporting bodies got tough and with the support from the top brass take action similar to the above.
If we continue with the status quo then someone, someday will be killed." They should be automatically relegated to junior A. Why should they be allowed one more shot at salvaging their season? And perhaps even a year's ban from adult action thereafter. And maybe after their fall from competing in intermediate not too long ago will lead to a root and branch cleaning up of the club from within. I won't hold my breath though.
beano (Wexford) - Posts: 1460 - 26/09/2022 11:47:35
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Replying To indaknownow: "How about another option. and it works no matter how many teams are at a grade (So long as there is an even number in every Grade)
Before each round there is an open draw do decide who you play. you play 4 or 5 rounds in this format and after that the top 8 teams go into quarter finals. The only proviso is that you cant play the same team twice in the league stage.
Quarter finals are seeded 1 v 8, 2 v 7, 3 v 6, 4 v 5 based on the table standings. Head to head results (if the teams have played each other) then Score difference taken into account do decide placings.
You probably need 4 or 5 league rounds to get a fair table. There is an element of luck of the draw in it too which adds to the championship feel.
I think its a realistic option. If you went for 4 rounds you save 2 weeks overall." Interesting proposal, but even allowing for how "luck of the draw" is a basic element of every championship, I think it leaves far too much to chance. One mid-ranking team might be drawn to play four or five of the apparently stronger teams in the grade, while another mid-ranking team might be drawn to play four or five of the apparent weakest.
Would have no objection though to it being on the table when these decisions are made in a couple of months time, and if people go for it, it would certainly help with fitting the championships into the calendar.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 26/09/2022 11:53:55
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Can assure you I'm at plenty of meetings and on plenty of calls where this and many other topics are discussed.
For what it's worth, currently part of a sub-committee considering championship structures, and here are options we're considering:
Option A - if people want games spaced out more, with more rest weeks:
Return to the 2020 & '21 structures, with four groups of three. Advantage: takes just six rounds hurling and six football, so 12 weeks total instead of 16, which fits far more neatly into calender currently available. Disadvantage: your championship could be over after three games played in the space of a fortnight. Maybe get round that by reverting to one week hurling, one week football, etc.
Option B - if people want to retain the two groups of six structure that's so popular:
Make sure that people have to accept that games will come thick and fast after each other. Could be even more squeezed in future years if Wexford hurlers progress to All-Ireland semi-final or final, or if footballers reach Tailteann Cup final. A big help would be if Leinster pushed back the opening date of the provincial club championships and played them straight through instead of a gap week between each round, but that's outside our direct control.
Option C - three groups of four.
Has the advantage of taking just six rounds if three group games, quarters, semis, and final. But problem here is finding a fair and acceptable to way to get eight quarter-finalists from three groups, without needing some sort of play-offs and therefore extra rounds of fixtures. Asked for thoughts on this a page or two back, but no suggestions yet.
Option D - a variation on C:
An innovative suggestion by one of our committee that you draw four groups of three, but teams in one group play teams from a different group - so for example, the three teams in Group A play the three in Group B. So you get three group games, top two in each group progress to quarter-finals, and bottom goes into relegation semi-finals.
Sounds good until you consider that all three teams in Group A could beat all three teams in Group B. Now you'd have a team in Group A going into relegation despite having six points, while two teams from Group B would still progress to quarter-finals despite having no points at all.
Option E - expand all grades in both hurling and football to 16 teams each, and run everything as four groups of four.
Advantage: Takes six round for each code, so 12 total, which again fits more neatly into the calendar. Disadvantage: despite others here already calling for it in hurling, think as shown by Oulart-The Ballagh this year (let's consider them a senior team in the intermediate grade), gap is just far too great for senior hurling to remain truly competitive throughout if you promote four intermediate teams. You could just be padding it out with virtual cannon fodder.
Option F - retain hurling as two groups of six, but expand football to 16 teams per grade, with four groups of four.
Half advantage: takes 14 rounds total (eight hurling + six football). Disadvantage: likely pushback from the mainly footballing clubs as they're not guaranteed as many games as in hurling.
There you have it. I think A or B are most likely, despite neither of them bringing anything new to the table at all." Option A - I don't really see any advantages to this. In 2021 it resulted in the luck of the draw relegating a team that subsequently made a mockery of the 2022 intermediate championship. The team who beat them in the relegation final ended up making the county final with a weaker team this year. In intermediate the luck of the draw meant taghmon ended up in the relegation final despite having to play the 3 best teams in the grade and even managing to beat one of them. 26 game championship. This system should never ever be repeated.
Option B - Great system as long as counties are given until the end of October to complete the championships. That way, a break could be factored in somewhere. Maybe group A break after 3 rounds and group B break after 4, so as to still ensure some championship action every weekend. There is no need for Leinster to take from the middle of October to the end of November to play their championship. 38 game championship.
Option C - The solution here is simple but not ideal. 3 groups of 4. Top 2 teams in each group qualify. two of the first placed teams get a bye to semi-finals. The other first placed team into two quarter finals along with the 3 second placed teams. All 4th place teams play in a group of 3 for relegation. 26 game championship.
Option D - Under no circumstances should this ever be considered.
Option E - I agree with the disadvantage here, particularly in hurling. Oulart are going to be an average senior team at best next year, yet they were able to absolutely demolish the best of what is in intermediate. There are not 16 teams good enough for senior. 34 game championship.
Option F - Best solution of all of the above, except the usual suspects would have a moan about football getting fewer games than hurling. 38 game hurling championship, 34 game football championship.
My order of preferences from the options above:
Option F, Option B, Option C, Option E, Option A, Option D
Regardless of what system is picked, we must move away from playing hurling and football in blocks. I can understand why it was a good idea in 2020 during covid, with reducing close contacts etc, but that is gone now. We must return to alternate weeks.
Finally, the other issue I saw raised in a recent county board bulletin was gate receipts. If only the fixtures committee stopped putting so many senior and top intermediate games on at the same time as each other. It is easily avoided.
Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 533 - 26/09/2022 11:55:31
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Replying To Onfor15: " Replying To Pikeman96: "So what if Junior, Junior A and Junior B are delayed by a week, because they don't have provincial championships? I'll tell you so what. Having any or all of them delayed by a week also delays the start of the football championships. So long as there are any dual players involved at all, football championships can't commence until all hurling championships have been competed.
Rather than me trying to find problems where there are none, you're refusing to see the problems that would be there.
Anyway, to go back to something somebody else asked a while ago - what exact "problem" are you trying to solve by reducing grades from 12 teams to ten? There hasn't been any clamour anywhere else to reduce the number of teams per grade. On the contrary, there have been a number of calls to put them up to 16.
Only logical reason for reducing number of teams per grade would be if it helped streamline the championships by meaning they need less rounds of fixtures to complete. But yours doesn't do that. Best case scenario, it still takes exactly the same. Worst case, it takes a week longer." I have advocated many times here for a return to hurling and football on alternate weeks. Doing that removes the pressure on the lower grades to be finished at the same time as the higher grades. So I'll say it again, so what if junior, junior a and junior b are delayed by a week due to byes. So another non-existent problem under my proposal. This particular to and fro started when you pointed out what you thought were all the problems with my proposal. I think I have more than adequately rebutted them. However, as I admitted a few posts back I know it's unlikely to materialise so we'd be best to leave it at that for the 2 groups of 5 idea."
You still haven't explained either about what "problem" dropping the grades to just ten teams each is supposed to address.
At least we agree on one thing - best to drop the two groups of five idea.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 26/09/2022 11:58:12
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Replying To Viking66: "Main one would be the general standard of adult hurling would fall. This would impact badly on our Senior Intercounty team" There is absolutely no evidence for this. Having more competitive grades can only help the general standard. When we had larger numbers in each grade, they were less competitive and the standard was worse.
Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 533 - 26/09/2022 11:59:53
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "Not a good report from this match.
Players hitting one another = part of the game.
Subs/mentors/supporters hitting players = not part of the game (see way too many such incidents).
Anybody hitting the referee should = team being thrown out.
The GAA have always been weak on discipline. At every level. At inter county, teams and managers will try every trick in the book to get players off on technicalities.
People often say "oh 1 individual doesn't define a club, and punishing the club is not right". Well, what should happen?
The incident in Roscommon just shows how poor the Gardai and GAA are at enforcing discipline for even the most egregious incident. A month or two later, radio silence.
There is still a sly, underhand amateur attitude to discipline throughout the GAA and the Gardai don't seem to act accordingly. "Get our player off", "look the other way" is all that seems to concern managers/officials/county boards.
It was ever thus." In a lot of clubs they feel they cannot afford to act against certain people because of family involvement in teams or the rest of the club. If the lub faces getting banned then that changes big time, clubs have to remove these people from the game first but Nedd the backup of the GAA to do it.
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1904 - 26/09/2022 12:10:34
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Replying To Magpie2: "Disgraceful scenes on whiterock Hill yesterday.
Wasn't at the match but I believe the referee was assaulted. Yes the county board and the guardi will tell us that it will be thoroughly investigated and action will be taken. We all know though that the penalty will be no more than a slap on the wrist. Maybe a 5 or 6 match ban for the individual concerned. Can it be stopped? No, but if a life ban was handed out it might curtail it somewhat.
Of course a life ban would be hard if not impossible to police. Who would do the policing?
In my opinion the best solution would be to give a very heavy fine to the club concerned and get rid of the person who committed the crime.
It's high time that the gaa and other sporting bodies got tough and with the support from the top brass take action similar to the above.
If we continue with the status quo then someone, someday will be killed." 100% agree with all you say apart from how the likely penalty will be no more than a slap on the wrist.
The man in Roscommon got 96 weeks, which apparently is the maximum allowed. Would expect the man here to get the same. Hopefully it goes without saying though that 96 weeks is still nowhere near enough, so if it really is the maximum allowed right now, Rule Book itself should be changed so that any future incidents can be dealt with even more severely.
In addition, Rule Book as it stands allows a club to expel a member, but doesn't seem to allow any higher authority to do so. That should be changed too. There should be no place in the Association for people like this man or the man in Roscommon, so if their clubs don't expel them, somebody else should be able to.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 26/09/2022 12:16:57
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Replying To indaknownow: "How about another option. and it works no matter how many teams are at a grade (So long as there is an even number in every Grade)
Before each round there is an open draw do decide who you play. you play 4 or 5 rounds in this format and after that the top 8 teams go into quarter finals. The only proviso is that you cant play the same team twice in the league stage.
Quarter finals are seeded 1 v 8, 2 v 7, 3 v 6, 4 v 5 based on the table standings. Head to head results (if the teams have played each other) then Score difference taken into account do decide placings.
You probably need 4 or 5 league rounds to get a fair table. There is an element of luck of the draw in it too which adds to the championship feel.
I think its a realistic option. If you went for 4 rounds you save 2 weeks overall." I really like this format, open draw every week adds a lot to the excitement each week, 4 rounds would be perfect, Cavan run it this way, after the 3rd round the max anyone can be on is 6 points so last round be very exciting
lefty (Wexford) - Posts: 221 - 26/09/2022 12:59:38
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Replying To Pikeman96: " Replying To Onfor15: "[quote=Pikeman96: "So what if Junior, Junior A and Junior B are delayed by a week, because they don't have provincial championships? I'll tell you so what. Having any or all of them delayed by a week also delays the start of the football championships. So long as there are any dual players involved at all, football championships can't commence until all hurling championships have been competed.
Rather than me trying to find problems where there are none, you're refusing to see the problems that would be there.
Anyway, to go back to something somebody else asked a while ago - what exact "problem" are you trying to solve by reducing grades from 12 teams to ten? There hasn't been any clamour anywhere else to reduce the number of teams per grade. On the contrary, there have been a number of calls to put them up to 16.
Only logical reason for reducing number of teams per grade would be if it helped streamline the championships by meaning they need less rounds of fixtures to complete. But yours doesn't do that. Best case scenario, it still takes exactly the same. Worst case, it takes a week longer." I have advocated many times here for a return to hurling and football on alternate weeks. Doing that removes the pressure on the lower grades to be finished at the same time as the higher grades. So I'll say it again, so what if junior, junior a and junior b are delayed by a week due to byes. So another non-existent problem under my proposal. This particular to and fro started when you pointed out what you thought were all the problems with my proposal. I think I have more than adequately rebutted them. However, as I admitted a few posts back I know it's unlikely to materialise so we'd be best to leave it at that for the 2 groups of 5 idea."
You still haven't explained either about what "problem" dropping the grades to just ten teams each is supposed to address.
At least we agree on one thing - best to drop the two groups of five idea."]It's the only way a rest week can be incorporated into the current schedule. If Leinster allowed more time which allowed for a rest week, then the 2 groups of 6 is by far and away the best.
But it is important to make this absolutely clear. Under an alternate weeks system a delay in completing lower grades in hurling would have absolutely no effect on football or vice versa. Because they are on separate weeks. The progress of one would not depend on the progress of the other.
Football would be weeks 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15 (and 17 if necessary for lower grades)
Hurling would be weeks 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16 (and 18 if necessary for lower grades)
What happens in weeks 15 and 17 is of no relevance to what happens in weeks 16 and 18.
Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 533 - 26/09/2022 13:04:11
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Looks like another serious incident for gaa to deal with..ive asked on the protection of officials forum this question,what if refs countrywide made a decision to withdraw their services for a full weekend in the next week or 2..this would hold up all championships and surely give Gaa to brass something to get their head round..I know it seems drastic but I think the refs need to take action..ive often been cheesed off with decisions made but would never even dream of approaching an official never mind bloody assaualt..
CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 2404 - 26/09/2022 13:04:33
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Replying To Pikeman96: "100% agree with all you say apart from how the likely penalty will be no more than a slap on the wrist.
The man in Roscommon got 96 weeks, which apparently is the maximum allowed. Would expect the man here to get the same. Hopefully it goes without saying though that 96 weeks is still nowhere near enough, so if it really is the maximum allowed right now, Rule Book itself should be changed so that any future incidents can be dealt with even more severely.
In addition, Rule Book as it stands allows a club to expel a member, but doesn't seem to allow any higher authority to do so. That should be changed too. There should be no place in the Association for people like this man or the man in Roscommon, so if their clubs don't expel them, somebody else should be able to." Agree totally no place anywhere in the GAA for people who do this, expulsion from GAA is thd minimum, but need to charged as well and face a day in court.
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4945 - 26/09/2022 13:21:17
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Replying To Viking66: "Main one would be the general standard of adult hurling would fall. This would impact badly on our Senior Intercounty team" General standard of hurling is average enough anyway, close and competitive but also very average. Similar to football close and competitive but the standard also very average.
hurlorhurley (Wexford) - Posts: 1660 - 26/09/2022 13:28:52
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Replying To Pikeman96: "100% agree with all you say apart from how the likely penalty will be no more than a slap on the wrist.
The man in Roscommon got 96 weeks, which apparently is the maximum allowed. Would expect the man here to get the same. Hopefully it goes without saying though that 96 weeks is still nowhere near enough, so if it really is the maximum allowed right now, Rule Book itself should be changed so that any future incidents can be dealt with even more severely.
In addition, Rule Book as it stands allows a club to expel a member, but doesn't seem to allow any higher authority to do so. That should be changed too. There should be no place in the Association for people like this man or the man in Roscommon, so if their clubs don't expel them, somebody else should be able to." Spot on pikeman.
Magpie2 (Wexford) - Posts: 386 - 26/09/2022 13:44:55
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Replying To hurlorhurley: "General standard of hurling is average enough anyway, close and competitive but also very average. Similar to football close and competitive but the standard also very average." It is. So why make it worse over a period of time? We don't have any lads breaking through onto the senior team in their mid 20s after improving playing adult hurling at their clubs. Is it that we are not picking this type of player or are we not developing anyone's game after they pass u20?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14127 - 26/09/2022 14:35:55
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@Onfor15 - seems we're still at it. :)
In fairness to you, that "rest week" thing wouldn't be an issue under how you outline things above, with alternate weeks between hurling and football, so long as the only grades affected were the ones that don't lead to provincial championships (i.e. Junior, Junior 'A' and Junior 'B').
Could still be an issue though if either Intermediate or Intermediate 'A' was affected. Granted, chances of that are slim as not many clubs have teams in two of the top three grades, so it's possible or maybe even probable to co-ordinate the Week 1 "rests" to avoid it becoming a problem. But would still have to be conscious of it.
Thanks for the reasoned analysis of all the options I put forward myself. As you can see, I have to pick holes even in those ones!
For what it's worth, my own preference would be to continue the two groups of six, if Leinster can be persuaded to push back the starting dates of the provincial championships. This year, they're taking seven weeks to run four round of fixtures in football. If they just ran it straight through instead, every county in the province would have an additional three weeks to finish their own county championships.
But again, that's out of direct control.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 26/09/2022 15:56:31
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Replying To Pikeman96: "@Onfor15 - seems we're still at it. :)
In fairness to you, that "rest week" thing wouldn't be an issue under how you outline things above, with alternate weeks between hurling and football, so long as the only grades affected were the ones that don't lead to provincial championships (i.e. Junior, Junior 'A' and Junior 'B').
Could still be an issue though if either Intermediate or Intermediate 'A' was affected. Granted, chances of that are slim as not many clubs have teams in two of the top three grades, so it's possible or maybe even probable to co-ordinate the Week 1 "rests" to avoid it becoming a problem. But would still have to be conscious of it.
Thanks for the reasoned analysis of all the options I put forward myself. As you can see, I have to pick holes even in those ones!
For what it's worth, my own preference would be to continue the two groups of six, if Leinster can be persuaded to push back the starting dates of the provincial championships. This year, they're taking seven weeks to run four round of fixtures in football. If they just ran it straight through instead, every county in the province would have an additional three weeks to finish their own county championships.
But again, that's out of direct control." First thing that should be done is call intermediate A it's proper name. junior!!!!
hurlorhurley (Wexford) - Posts: 1660 - 26/09/2022 18:31:22
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Replying To hurlorhurley: "First thing that should be done is call intermediate A it's proper name. junior!!!!" Change it Senior, intermediate, junior, Junior A, junior B and Junior C?
alwaysasub (Wexford) - Posts: 451 - 27/09/2022 09:22:53
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