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Going to reply to three posts in one:
Beano - good point. Just to note that Onfor15 is suggesting this for hurling only, but the point remains. For instance, Oulart-The Ballagh next year will be in Senior, Intermediate A, and Junior A. If their senior team were to have a "rest" in Week 1, that would hold up the other two championships by a week. You'd end up needing nine sets of fixtures from the first championship starting to the last one finishing, instead of eight.
Zinny - it's against the rules of the provincial championships to enter your county champions of the previous year. If your championship of any given year isn't completed before the provincial championship begins, then you have to forego representation in it. It used to be different all right, but it was changed many years ago now.
Onfor15 - big difference with the 2020 and '21 championships is they were operating off four groups of three, which took just five rounds to complete, or six if the "rest" week delayed one of the lower grades. That's significantly different form the eight or nine it would take with what you propose.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2229 - 24/09/2022 17:25:37
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Correction to my post above - 2020 & '21 championships took six rounds rather than five, as they also involved preliminary quarter finals.
So, the difference we're talking about is six or seven rounds of fixtures, as opposed to eight or nine. But even the two extra is a significant difference when the calendar is already so squeezed.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2229 - 24/09/2022 19:06:28
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Going to reply to three posts in one:
Beano - good point. Just to note that Onfor15 is suggesting this for hurling only, but the point remains. For instance, Oulart-The Ballagh next year will be in Senior, Intermediate A, and Junior A. If their senior team were to have a "rest" in Week 1, that would hold up the other two championships by a week. You'd end up needing nine sets of fixtures from the first championship starting to the last one finishing, instead of eight.
Zinny - it's against the rules of the provincial championships to enter your county champions of the previous year. If your championship of any given year isn't completed before the provincial championship begins, then you have to forego representation in it. It used to be different all right, but it was changed many years ago now.
Onfor15 - big difference with the 2020 and '21 championships is they were operating off four groups of three, which took just five rounds to complete, or six if the "rest" week delayed one of the lower grades. That's significantly different form the eight or nine it would take with what you propose." Thanks for the correction but then it just makes it all a fairly simple decision for clubs to make.
Keep everything as it is
Play less games and have breaks
Keep the same format just more breaks and no team entry into the club championship at any level
Of course if you are a hurling club and they stick to the current format three doesn't concern you - you get breaks and still get into the club championship.
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1800 - 24/09/2022 21:00:09
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Going to reply to three posts in one:
Beano - good point. Just to note that Onfor15 is suggesting this for hurling only, but the point remains. For instance, Oulart-The Ballagh next year will be in Senior, Intermediate A, and Junior A. If their senior team were to have a "rest" in Week 1, that would hold up the other two championships by a week. You'd end up needing nine sets of fixtures from the first championship starting to the last one finishing, instead of eight.
Zinny - it's against the rules of the provincial championships to enter your county champions of the previous year. If your championship of any given year isn't completed before the provincial championship begins, then you have to forego representation in it. It used to be different all right, but it was changed many years ago now.
Onfor15 - big difference with the 2020 and '21 championships is they were operating off four groups of three, which took just five rounds to complete, or six if the "rest" week delayed one of the lower grades. That's significantly different form the eight or nine it would take with what you propose." Re your response to Beano and I suppose your response to me - the same thing could have happened in 2020 or 2021 but it was avoided.
4 teams in every grade did not play in round 1. Under my proposal only 2 teams in each grade would not play in round 1.
The problem was managed and overcome without any delay to championship by clever fixture planning.
Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 524 - 24/09/2022 21:16:07
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Great to see so many people with their championship proposals. How many of these go to club/county meetings to make feelings heard? Is there a more negative county?
countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 640 - 25/09/2022 10:51:37
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Onfor15 - do you still seriously not see how having senior teams at "rest" in Week 1 would have a consequent effect on delaying the start of two, three, or even more of the lower grades? And the knock-on difficulties that would cause in completing championships in an already squeezed calendar?
Again, 2020 and '21 were different. The big difference that helped avoid this becoming a problem then was that there were four groups in each grade. If a team in Senior Group B, for example, had a "rest" in Week 1, it was far easier to coordinate things that so for example their team in Junior Group C would have a "rest" too, without having an effect on the other two teams in that group.
But with only two groups in each grade, far greater chance of two teams in Senior Group A (for example) having their second teams together in Junior Group B (for example), and so you couldn't co-ordinate that they'd both have the "rest" in Week 1.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2229 - 25/09/2022 13:13:58
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did not go to any game today, watched wexford gaa tv and twitter, what a day, things were changing by the minute, crossabeg were topping group few minutes later they were out, just thinking how far the duffry have fallen from my playing days, clongeen seem to be coming back a bit
Stmunnsriver (Wexford) - Posts: 2840 - 25/09/2022 17:49:21
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I am hearing that the ref in the St Josephs and Our Ladies Island game was assaulted, had to go to A&E.
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1800 - 25/09/2022 18:07:15
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Wexford gardaí investigating alleged assault of referee at junior football match
Members of the force were called to the game between St Joseph's and Our Lady's Island
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2022/09/25/wexford-gardai-investigating-alleged-assault-of-referee-at-junior-football-match/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3496 - 25/09/2022 18:29:12
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Onfor15 - do you still seriously not see how having senior teams at "rest" in Week 1 would have a consequent effect on delaying the start of two, three, or even more of the lower grades? And the knock-on difficulties that would cause in completing championships in an already squeezed calendar?
Again, 2020 and '21 were different. The big difference that helped avoid this becoming a problem then was that there were four groups in each grade. If a team in Senior Group B, for example, had a "rest" in Week 1, it was far easier to coordinate things that so for example their team in Junior Group C would have a "rest" too, without having an effect on the other two teams in that group.
But with only two groups in each grade, far greater chance of two teams in Senior Group A (for example) having their second teams together in Junior Group B (for example), and so you couldn't co-ordinate that they'd both have the "rest" in Week 1." You are trying to find a problem where there just isn't one.
You are also forgetting that the only grades that have to be finished by a certain date under my proposals are Senior, Intermediate and Intermediate A. So if a rest week does mean that Junior, Junior A and Junior B are delayed by a week or two then so what.
In hurling all that has to be done is avoid Oulart, Shels and St Martins having a rest in week 1 and in football avoid Glynn having a rest in week 1.
Easy
Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 524 - 25/09/2022 18:42:55
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Replying To KillingFields: "Wexford gardaí investigating alleged assault of referee at junior football match
Members of the force were called to the game between St Joseph's and Our Lady's Island
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2022/09/25/wexford-gardai-investigating-alleged-assault-of-referee-at-junior-football-match/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter" Yes, unfortunately it happened, and the sooner the better the rule is changed and lifetime bans are handed down
Yellaman (Wexford) - Posts: 106 - 25/09/2022 19:41:10
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Replying To Onfor15: "You are trying to find a problem where there just isn't one.
You are also forgetting that the only grades that have to be finished by a certain date under my proposals are Senior, Intermediate and Intermediate A. So if a rest week does mean that Junior, Junior A and Junior B are delayed by a week or two then so what.
In hurling all that has to be done is avoid Oulart, Shels and St Martins having a rest in week 1 and in football avoid Glynn having a rest in week 1.
Easy" So what if Junior, Junior A and Junior B are delayed by a week, because they don't have provincial championships? I'll tell you so what. Having any or all of them delayed by a week also delays the start of the football championships. So long as there are any dual players involved at all, football championships can't commence until all hurling championships have been competed.
Rather than me trying to find problems where there are none, you're refusing to see the problems that would be there.
Anyway, to go back to something somebody else asked a while ago - what exact "problem" are you trying to solve by reducing grades from 12 teams to ten? There hasn't been any clamour anywhere else to reduce the number of teams per grade. On the contrary, there have been a number of calls to put them up to 16.
Only logical reason for reducing number of teams per grade would be if it helped streamline the championships by meaning they need less rounds of fixtures to complete. But yours doesn't do that. Best case scenario, it still takes exactly the same. Worst case, it takes a week longer.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2229 - 25/09/2022 19:52:06
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Replying To zinny: "I am hearing that the ref in the St Josephs and Our Ladies Island game was assaulted, had to go to A&E." Yes, disturbing reports today. Hope the book is thrown at the offender. Absolutely no place for that kind of thing.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2229 - 25/09/2022 19:55:24
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Replying To KillingFields: "Wexford gardaí investigating alleged assault of referee at junior football match
Members of the force were called to the game between St Joseph's and Our Lady's Island
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2022/09/25/wexford-gardai-investigating-alleged-assault-of-referee-at-junior-football-match/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter" I have said it before and will again - clubs need to be held accountable for who they put in charge of teams. From what I have heard if true this individual has form.
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1800 - 25/09/2022 20:10:54
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Replying To countyman2022: "Great to see so many people with their championship proposals. How many of these go to club/county meetings to make feelings heard? Is there a more negative county?" Can assure you I'm at plenty of meetings and on plenty of calls where this and many other topics are discussed.
For what it's worth, currently part of a sub-committee considering championship structures, and here are options we're considering:
Option A - if people want games spaced out more, with more rest weeks:
Return to the 2020 & '21 structures, with four groups of three. Advantage: takes just six rounds hurling and six football, so 12 weeks total instead of 16, which fits far more neatly into calender currently available. Disadvantage: your championship could be over after three games played in the space of a fortnight. Maybe get round that by reverting to one week hurling, one week football, etc.
Option B - if people want to retain the two groups of six structure that's so popular:
Make sure that people have to accept that games will come thick and fast after each other. Could be even more squeezed in future years if Wexford hurlers progress to All-Ireland semi-final or final, or if footballers reach Tailteann Cup final. A big help would be if Leinster pushed back the opening date of the provincial club championships and played them straight through instead of a gap week between each round, but that's outside our direct control.
Option C - three groups of four.
Has the advantage of taking just six rounds if three group games, quarters, semis, and final. But problem here is finding a fair and acceptable to way to get eight quarter-finalists from three groups, without needing some sort of play-offs and therefore extra rounds of fixtures. Asked for thoughts on this a page or two back, but no suggestions yet.
Option D - a variation on C:
An innovative suggestion by one of our committee that you draw four groups of three, but teams in one group play teams from a different group - so for example, the three teams in Group A play the three in Group B. So you get three group games, top two in each group progress to quarter-finals, and bottom goes into relegation semi-finals.
Sounds good until you consider that all three teams in Group A could beat all three teams in Group B. Now you'd have a team in Group A going into relegation despite having six points, while two teams from Group B would still progress to quarter-finals despite having no points at all.
Option E - expand all grades in both hurling and football to 16 teams each, and run everything as four groups of four.
Advantage: Takes six round for each code, so 12 total, which again fits more neatly into the calendar. Disadvantage: despite others here already calling for it in hurling, think as shown by Oulart-The Ballagh this year (let's consider them a senior team in the intermediate grade), gap is just far too great for senior hurling to remain truly competitive throughout if you promote four intermediate teams. You could just be padding it out with virtual cannon fodder.
Option F - retain hurling as two groups of six, but expand football to 16 teams per grade, with four groups of four.
Half advantage: takes 14 rounds total (eight hurling + six football). Disadvantage: likely pushback from the mainly footballing clubs as they're not guaranteed as many games as in hurling.
There you have it. I think A or B are most likely, despite neither of them bringing anything new to the table at all.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2229 - 25/09/2022 20:20:03
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Can assure you I'm at plenty of meetings and on plenty of calls where this and many other topics are discussed.
For what it's worth, currently part of a sub-committee considering championship structures, and here are options we're considering:
Option A - if people want games spaced out more, with more rest weeks:
Return to the 2020 & '21 structures, with four groups of three. Advantage: takes just six rounds hurling and six football, so 12 weeks total instead of 16, which fits far more neatly into calender currently available. Disadvantage: your championship could be over after three games played in the space of a fortnight. Maybe get round that by reverting to one week hurling, one week football, etc.
Option B - if people want to retain the two groups of six structure that's so popular:
Make sure that people have to accept that games will come thick and fast after each other. Could be even more squeezed in future years if Wexford hurlers progress to All-Ireland semi-final or final, or if footballers reach Tailteann Cup final. A big help would be if Leinster pushed back the opening date of the provincial club championships and played them straight through instead of a gap week between each round, but that's outside our direct control.
Option C - three groups of four.
Has the advantage of taking just six rounds if three group games, quarters, semis, and final. But problem here is finding a fair and acceptable to way to get eight quarter-finalists from three groups, without needing some sort of play-offs and therefore extra rounds of fixtures. Asked for thoughts on this a page or two back, but no suggestions yet.
Option D - a variation on C:
An innovative suggestion by one of our committee that you draw four groups of three, but teams in one group play teams from a different group - so for example, the three teams in Group A play the three in Group B. So you get three group games, top two in each group progress to quarter-finals, and bottom goes into relegation semi-finals.
Sounds good until you consider that all three teams in Group A could beat all three teams in Group B. Now you'd have a team in Group A going into relegation despite having six points, while two teams from Group B would still progress to quarter-finals despite having no points at all.
Option E - expand all grades in both hurling and football to 16 teams each, and run everything as four groups of four.
Advantage: Takes six round for each code, so 12 total, which again fits more neatly into the calendar. Disadvantage: despite others here already calling for it in hurling, think as shown by Oulart-The Ballagh this year (let's consider them a senior team in the intermediate grade), gap is just far too great for senior hurling to remain truly competitive throughout if you promote four intermediate teams. You could just be padding it out with virtual cannon fodder.
Option F - retain hurling as two groups of six, but expand football to 16 teams per grade, with four groups of four.
Half advantage: takes 14 rounds total (eight hurling + six football). Disadvantage: likely pushback from the mainly footballing clubs as they're not guaranteed as many games as in hurling.
There you have it. I think A or B are most likely, despite neither of them bringing anything new to the table at all." Anyway, back to what this thread is for: Wexford Football Championship.
oneteamman (Wexford) - Posts: 40 - 25/09/2022 21:01:24
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Replying To oneteamman: "Anyway, back to what this thread is for: Wexford Football Championship." Might be best :)
If there was still a dedicated Wexford forum, I'd have been suggesting or starting a dedicated thread on championship structures, to keep it separate. Still miss the wa things used to be around here.
Anyway, maybe I'm stating the bleeding obvious (as Basil Fawlty might say), but reckon Shels and Horeswood simly have to be hot favourites for the top two grades. Hard to see anyone stopping Shels in particular. If Hegarty can have Wexford as well drilled against Div. 4 opposition next year as he has Shels against other senior clubs now, I'd be reasonably confident that we might finally be promoted.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2229 - 26/09/2022 09:28:08
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Replying To zinny: "I have said it before and will again - clubs need to be held accountable for who they put in charge of teams. From what I have heard if true this individual has form." Not a good report from this match.
Players hitting one another = part of the game.
Subs/mentors/supporters hitting players = not part of the game (see way too many such incidents).
Anybody hitting the referee should = team being thrown out.
The GAA have always been weak on discipline. At every level. At inter county, teams and managers will try every trick in the book to get players off on technicalities.
People often say "oh 1 individual doesn't define a club, and punishing the club is not right". Well, what should happen?
The incident in Roscommon just shows how poor the Gardai and GAA are at enforcing discipline for even the most egregious incident. A month or two later, radio silence.
There is still a sly, underhand amateur attitude to discipline throughout the GAA and the Gardai don't seem to act accordingly. "Get our player off", "look the other way" is all that seems to concern managers/officials/county boards.
It was ever thus.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1122 - 26/09/2022 09:40:55
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draw permitting who is the main threat to the shels retaining title?
Stmunnsriver (Wexford) - Posts: 2840 - 26/09/2022 09:54:24
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Can assure you I'm at plenty of meetings and on plenty of calls where this and many other topics are discussed.
For what it's worth, currently part of a sub-committee considering championship structures, and here are options we're considering:
Option A - if people want games spaced out more, with more rest weeks:
Return to the 2020 & '21 structures, with four groups of three. Advantage: takes just six rounds hurling and six football, so 12 weeks total instead of 16, which fits far more neatly into calender currently available. Disadvantage: your championship could be over after three games played in the space of a fortnight. Maybe get round that by reverting to one week hurling, one week football, etc.
Option B - if people want to retain the two groups of six structure that's so popular:
Make sure that people have to accept that games will come thick and fast after each other. Could be even more squeezed in future years if Wexford hurlers progress to All-Ireland semi-final or final, or if footballers reach Tailteann Cup final. A big help would be if Leinster pushed back the opening date of the provincial club championships and played them straight through instead of a gap week between each round, but that's outside our direct control.
Option C - three groups of four.
Has the advantage of taking just six rounds if three group games, quarters, semis, and final. But problem here is finding a fair and acceptable to way to get eight quarter-finalists from three groups, without needing some sort of play-offs and therefore extra rounds of fixtures. Asked for thoughts on this a page or two back, but no suggestions yet.
Option D - a variation on C:
An innovative suggestion by one of our committee that you draw four groups of three, but teams in one group play teams from a different group - so for example, the three teams in Group A play the three in Group B. So you get three group games, top two in each group progress to quarter-finals, and bottom goes into relegation semi-finals.
Sounds good until you consider that all three teams in Group A could beat all three teams in Group B. Now you'd have a team in Group A going into relegation despite having six points, while two teams from Group B would still progress to quarter-finals despite having no points at all.
Option E - expand all grades in both hurling and football to 16 teams each, and run everything as four groups of four.
Advantage: Takes six round for each code, so 12 total, which again fits more neatly into the calendar. Disadvantage: despite others here already calling for it in hurling, think as shown by Oulart-The Ballagh this year (let's consider them a senior team in the intermediate grade), gap is just far too great for senior hurling to remain truly competitive throughout if you promote four intermediate teams. You could just be padding it out with virtual cannon fodder.
Option F - retain hurling as two groups of six, but expand football to 16 teams per grade, with four groups of four.
Half advantage: takes 14 rounds total (eight hurling + six football). Disadvantage: likely pushback from the mainly footballing clubs as they're not guaranteed as many games as in hurling.
There you have it. I think A or B are most likely, despite neither of them bringing anything new to the table at all." How about another option. and it works no matter how many teams are at a grade (So long as there is an even number in every Grade)
Before each round there is an open draw do decide who you play. you play 4 or 5 rounds in this format and after that the top 8 teams go into quarter finals. The only proviso is that you cant play the same team twice in the league stage.
Quarter finals are seeded 1 v 8, 2 v 7, 3 v 6, 4 v 5 based on the table standings. Head to head results (if the teams have played each other) then Score difference taken into account do decide placings.
You probably need 4 or 5 league rounds to get a fair table. There is an element of luck of the draw in it too which adds to the championship feel.
I think its a realistic option. If you went for 4 rounds you save 2 weeks overall.
indaknownow (Offaly) - Posts: 112 - 26/09/2022 10:27:48
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