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Wexford Football Championship

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I think I've said it on a number of occasions at this stage.


For hurling - Reduce each grade to 10 teams. 2 groups of 5 takes as long to play as 2 groups of 6, the only difference being that each team gets 1 round off in the group stages. Top team into semi finals, 2 v 3 in quarter finals, 4th finished and 5th into relegation. Takes 8 weeks to play. Guarantees each team at least 4 games.

For football - grades of 16 teams, with the 2001 to 2007 system of winners and losers section. Takes 6 weeks to play. Guarantees each team at least 3 games.

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 418 - 22/09/2022 18:55:16    2441580

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Pardon my ignorance but where is Joe Hagan originally from?

ElGranSenor (Wexford) - Posts: 35 - 22/09/2022 19:54:37    2441586

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Replying To ElGranSenor:  "Pardon my ignorance but where is Joe Hagan originally from?"
Monaghan but think he's the principal of Waterpark school in Waterford.

TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 32 - 23/09/2022 07:14:16    2441599

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Replying To Onfor15:  "I think I've said it on a number of occasions at this stage.


For hurling - Reduce each grade to 10 teams. 2 groups of 5 takes as long to play as 2 groups of 6, the only difference being that each team gets 1 round off in the group stages. Top team into semi finals, 2 v 3 in quarter finals, 4th finished and 5th into relegation. Takes 8 weeks to play. Guarantees each team at least 4 games.

For football - grades of 16 teams, with the 2001 to 2007 system of winners and losers section. Takes 6 weeks to play. Guarantees each team at least 3 games."
Even leaving aside all other issues with those suggestions, I'd predict that straight away, the mainly footballling clubs would be up in arms about that, saying it's unfair that the football championship wouldn't give a club as many games as the hurling would.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 1037 - 23/09/2022 08:34:34    2441601

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Replying To Onfor15:  "I think I've said it on a number of occasions at this stage.


For hurling - Reduce each grade to 10 teams. 2 groups of 5 takes as long to play as 2 groups of 6, the only difference being that each team gets 1 round off in the group stages. Top team into semi finals, 2 v 3 in quarter finals, 4th finished and 5th into relegation. Takes 8 weeks to play. Guarantees each team at least 4 games.

For football - grades of 16 teams, with the 2001 to 2007 system of winners and losers section. Takes 6 weeks to play. Guarantees each team at least 3 games."
Here here, and very simply explained!

rossytilidie (Wexford) - Posts: 279 - 23/09/2022 09:02:55    2441605

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Even leaving aside all other issues with those suggestions, I'd predict that straight away, the mainly footballling clubs would be up in arms about that, saying it's unfair that the football championship wouldn't give a club as many games as the hurling would."
What are 'all other issues with those suggestions'?

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 418 - 23/09/2022 09:32:11    2441610

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Replying To beano:  "Interesting to see, according to the preview of this weekend's games, that Joe Hagan is back in with Gusserane. I don't contend with the "he knows Wexford football inside out" tenet though- surely every single manager in the championship is in a similar boat.

Gusserane vs. Starlights: Gusserane have done remarkably well to be through to the last-eight given their opening round loss and well-documented injures. In fact their three wins on the bounce since is matched by Glynn and only bettered by Shelmaliers when stretched over four games. Rossiter is in Matty Forde levels of scoring form, but I wouldn't be surprised if they rested a few bodies ahead of the quarters, as I am sure they don't really care where they end up so long as they are there. The need is greater for Starlights, and last week was the sort of battling performance they have produced the last few years. It's no coincidence that their biggest tally to date came when Gooch is back fully fit- a timely boost. Starlights by three.

Crossabeg vs. St.Anne's: tie of the round for me. Crossabeg have hit eight goals in four games, and are a match for anyone on their day. To have the best scoring difference in a competitive group is amazing really. But they are not there yet, and could be dumped out on 5 points if results elsewhere go against them. St.Anne's are probably the one team I would hate to play in a final group game with plenty at stake- they have hit at least one goal in every game and are actually the top scorers in the group. Dark-horses for the championship on current form. Crossabeg have been a breath of fresh air, and an example to other clubs looking to making the breakthrough in the code, but I think St.Anne's experience might nudge them over the line by two points.

Kilanerin vs. St.Martin's: Kilanerin have shipped a heavy score in each of their last two games, and have needlessly dragged themselves into potential trouble as a result. Martin's must be sickened at throwing away their lead the last day, but it's more important to them now to make sure they have everybody available for the relegation play-off than chasing a dead-rubber win. With that in mind, Kilanerin by four points.

That would leave the table as:

1. St Anne's 6 pts +16
2. Gusserane 6 pts +5
3. Kilanerin 6 pts +2
4. Starlights 6 pts -6

Group B is a bit more straight-forward. Of the two games between the four qualifiers, Shels might shade Glynn by two points, while I would expect St.James to rest O'Hanlon (quietly a contender for player of the year), KOG and others, and Castletown won't want to lose three in a row ahead of the knock-outs (who would?) so tip Castletown to win that one by four points.

Sarsfields vs. Bunclody: hard to know which way this will go. Sarsfields were commended for bringing the fight in losing efforts to Shels and Castletown in the first two rounds, but their scoring has dropped considerably since. They hit only 1-6 and 2-4 in last two games. Conversely, scoring was a problem for Bunclody up to last weekend when they registered 3-10, and if they can maintain that form up front, they'll have a chance. A lot will depend on the availabilty of O'Connor as he'd be a ready-made marker for Chin, and while Sarsfields have a bit more pace up front with their young lads, Bunclody are more organised defensively. Restarts have been a problem for both goalies, so whoever can retain their fair share of possession in the middle third will probably win it. I don't expect it to be a classic, and wouldn't be surprised if Bunclody eked out a tight win.

Group B would look like:

1. Shelmaliers 10 pts
2. Glynn 6 pts +11
3. St.James 6 pts +8
4. Castletown 6 pts +5

Making the quarter-finals:

Shelmaliers vs Starlights
Glynn vs Kilanerin
St.James vs. Gusserane
Castletown vs. St.Anne's

My track-record hasn't been outstanding however!"
Is Hagan not a Starlights man or he used to be?
I am unconvinced by the Starlights, even with a couple of players back however that said I haven't seen Gusserane play much either. I don't think either team will rest any players and will go out from the start to win this game. Having a forward like Rossiter on form could be the difference. I don't like going for draws so I will go with Gusserane to edge it. Crossabeg apparently will have Conor Devereux back and one other can't remember the name so they will be full of confidence going in. The Annes are hard beat but I just feel that CB may shade this one, they will leave it all out there to get to that QF which would be a massive year for them. I liked the cut in the Martins the last day, they may have nothing to gain but have loads to prove and I cannot see them going half hearted into this one. If there are lads with niggles they may rest them but if they put out a full team then I think they will win unless Kilanerin have Hughes back.
The other group I would agree bar I think the Sarsfields have more to offer than Bunclody. I think they just have more to offer in attack than Bunclody which will make the difference.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1493 - 23/09/2022 09:54:40    2441614

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Replying To Onfor15:  "I think I've said it on a number of occasions at this stage.


For hurling - Reduce each grade to 10 teams. 2 groups of 5 takes as long to play as 2 groups of 6, the only difference being that each team gets 1 round off in the group stages. Top team into semi finals, 2 v 3 in quarter finals, 4th finished and 5th into relegation. Takes 8 weeks to play. Guarantees each team at least 4 games.

For football - grades of 16 teams, with the 2001 to 2007 system of winners and losers section. Takes 6 weeks to play. Guarantees each team at least 3 games."
One round off? Explain how you purpose this plays out fairly?

So someone won't play the first weekend but will then play 4 weeks in a row; where as an other team will have a break after week 1; another after week 2 & so on. Not fair that one team will play twice before a break where as one team will play after the first week off for 4 weeks and another team will play for the first four weeks with the last round off.

oneteamman (Wexford) - Posts: 38 - 23/09/2022 11:40:42    2441629

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Replying To Onfor15:  "What are 'all other issues with those suggestions'?"
You did ask....!

Reducing the hurling grades to just 10 teams each would be unlikely to be passed by clubs as it would bring certain or near certain relegation the further you go down the grades. Think it through:
- Primary competition drops from 12 teams down to 10. Two teams are relegated. That's 16.66%

- Secondary competition now consists of those two coming down, and presumably the winners of the third competition coming up (since they'd surely still be entitled to promotion). That leaves room for only seven of the 12 teams currently in the secondary competition. The other five of those twelve go down to the third one. That's 42% relegated.

- Third competition now has those five coming down, and the winners of the fourth competition coming up. Leaves room for only four of the 12 teams currently in the third competition. Other eight go down to the fourth. That's 66% relegated.

- Fourth competition has those eight coming down, and winners of fifth going up. That leaves room for only one of the 12 teams currently in it. Other 11 go down. That's 92% relegated. One of them would even have to drop two grades, since only 10 of those 11 can form the fifth competition

- Fifth competition now consists of 10 of those 11 teams coming down. I don't know how you'd decide which ten? All teams currently in the fifth competition (currently known as Junior 'A') therefore have to drop down. That's 100% relegated.

- Sixth competition has one of the teams coming down from four (again, which one?), plus winners of what's currently the bottom competition (currently known as Junior 'B') coming up. That leaves room for only eight of the 12 teams coming down from what used to be the fifth division. The other four have to drop even further. It means that 100% of team currently in fifth competition are relegated at least one grade, and 33% of them are relegated two grades.

- You now have a new seventh competition (currently the sixth grade, Junior 'B'), involving four teams that currently play in the fifth competition (Junior 'A') and all the rest who currently ply their trade at Junior 'B' anyway. Means that all teams currently operating at Junior 'B' have been relegated from the sixth grade to the seventh - or again, 100% relegation.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 1037 - 23/09/2022 11:49:52    2441630

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Replying To oneteamman:  "One round off? Explain how you purpose this plays out fairly?

So someone won't play the first weekend but will then play 4 weeks in a row; where as an other team will have a break after week 1; another after week 2 & so on. Not fair that one team will play twice before a break where as one team will play after the first week off for 4 weeks and another team will play for the first four weeks with the last round off."
Yes, that's one of the other issues. Just didn't mention it in my previous post because I thought it was already long enough!

On the football, am presuming (perhaps wrongly) that the other poster is referring to the 'A' and 'B' championships that ran for a few years. There were four groups of four, with the top two in each group going into the 'proper' championship and the bottom two going into the 'B' competition. Losers in the 'B' competition would be playing off to decide relegation.

If some regard the All County Leagues as a waste of time the way they're currently run, those 'B' competitions were even worse. They meant absolutely nothing. My own club won an Intermediate 'B' competition in one of those years, and there was hardly even a pint drunk afterwards. I still remember how the newspaper report was headlined "[CLUB] finish ninth best".

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 1037 - 23/09/2022 13:15:09    2441640

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "You did ask....!

Reducing the hurling grades to just 10 teams each would be unlikely to be passed by clubs as it would bring certain or near certain relegation the further you go down the grades. Think it through:
- Primary competition drops from 12 teams down to 10. Two teams are relegated. That's 16.66%

- Secondary competition now consists of those two coming down, and presumably the winners of the third competition coming up (since they'd surely still be entitled to promotion). That leaves room for only seven of the 12 teams currently in the secondary competition. The other five of those twelve go down to the third one. That's 42% relegated.

- Third competition now has those five coming down, and the winners of the fourth competition coming up. Leaves room for only four of the 12 teams currently in the third competition. Other eight go down to the fourth. That's 66% relegated.

- Fourth competition has those eight coming down, and winners of fifth going up. That leaves room for only one of the 12 teams currently in it. Other 11 go down. That's 92% relegated. One of them would even have to drop two grades, since only 10 of those 11 can form the fifth competition

- Fifth competition now consists of 10 of those 11 teams coming down. I don't know how you'd decide which ten? All teams currently in the fifth competition (currently known as Junior 'A') therefore have to drop down. That's 100% relegated.

- Sixth competition has one of the teams coming down from four (again, which one?), plus winners of what's currently the bottom competition (currently known as Junior 'B') coming up. That leaves room for only eight of the 12 teams coming down from what used to be the fifth division. The other four have to drop even further. It means that 100% of team currently in fifth competition are relegated at least one grade, and 33% of them are relegated two grades.

- You now have a new seventh competition (currently the sixth grade, Junior 'B'), involving four teams that currently play in the fifth competition (Junior 'A') and all the rest who currently ply their trade at Junior 'B' anyway. Means that all teams currently operating at Junior 'B' have been relegated from the sixth grade to the seventh - or again, 100% relegation."
I know it would be unlikely to be passed. That doesn't necessarily make it a bad format.

It's not relegation, its re-organisation in the very same way as the 16's were reduced to 12 about 10 years ago. If necessary call the second grade Senior A or something so clubs feel better about themselves like they did with introducing intermediate A.

It's actually very simple. Let clubs know that finishing positions of 2023 will decide grades for 2024.

1-10 in senior (top 5 in each group of 6)
11-20 in senior A (bottom 2 in senior, quarter finalists of intermediate)
21-30 in Intermediate (other 4 intermediate, semi finalists of intermediate A, plus 2 winners of quarter final play offs)
31-40 in Intermediate A (2 losers of quarter final play offs, plus other 4 inter A, plus Junior semi finalists)
41-50 in Junior (other 8 junior plus junior A finalists)
51-60 in Junior A (10 remaining Junior A teams)
61+ in Junior B

Anyway, I know it hasnt a hope of happening but it isnt nearly as complicated as you have outlined and it would create 6 very competitive grades.

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 418 - 23/09/2022 13:34:14    2441642

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Replying To oneteamman:  "One round off? Explain how you purpose this plays out fairly?

So someone won't play the first weekend but will then play 4 weeks in a row; where as an other team will have a break after week 1; another after week 2 & so on. Not fair that one team will play twice before a break where as one team will play after the first week off for 4 weeks and another team will play for the first four weeks with the last round off."
No matter what the format there will be a draw back. Each team will have a bye. Some will get it at the start, others get it at the end, others in the middle. Thats inevitable with a group of 5. Could use one of the weeks ive saved from football to give everyone a week off after round 4.

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 418 - 23/09/2022 13:36:10    2441643

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Yes, that's one of the other issues. Just didn't mention it in my previous post because I thought it was already long enough!

On the football, am presuming (perhaps wrongly) that the other poster is referring to the 'A' and 'B' championships that ran for a few years. There were four groups of four, with the top two in each group going into the 'proper' championship and the bottom two going into the 'B' competition. Losers in the 'B' competition would be playing off to decide relegation.

If some regard the All County Leagues as a waste of time the way they're currently run, those 'B' competitions were even worse. They meant absolutely nothing. My own club won an Intermediate 'B' competition in one of those years, and there was hardly even a pint drunk afterwards. I still remember how the newspaper report was headlined "[CLUB
finish ninth best"."]Yeah, you've wrongly presumed actually.

The football format I was referring to, i think i said from 2001 to 2007, which was:

1. An open draw in round 1 = 8 matches (winners advance to 2A, losers advance to 2B)
2A. The winners of rnd 1, open draw = 4 matches (winners advance to quarter final, losers go to round 3)
2B. The losers of rnd 1, open draw = 4 matches (winners advance to round 3, losers go to relegation semi finals)
3. 4 losers in 2A play the 4 winners from 2B
Quarter finals - Winners from Rnd 3, play winners from 2A

Ideal for football

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 418 - 23/09/2022 13:43:04    2441646

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "You did ask....!

Reducing the hurling grades to just 10 teams each would be unlikely to be passed by clubs as it would bring certain or near certain relegation the further you go down the grades. Think it through:
- Primary competition drops from 12 teams down to 10. Two teams are relegated. That's 16.66%

- Secondary competition now consists of those two coming down, and presumably the winners of the third competition coming up (since they'd surely still be entitled to promotion). That leaves room for only seven of the 12 teams currently in the secondary competition. The other five of those twelve go down to the third one. That's 42% relegated.

- Third competition now has those five coming down, and the winners of the fourth competition coming up. Leaves room for only four of the 12 teams currently in the third competition. Other eight go down to the fourth. That's 66% relegated.

- Fourth competition has those eight coming down, and winners of fifth going up. That leaves room for only one of the 12 teams currently in it. Other 11 go down. That's 92% relegated. One of them would even have to drop two grades, since only 10 of those 11 can form the fifth competition

- Fifth competition now consists of 10 of those 11 teams coming down. I don't know how you'd decide which ten? All teams currently in the fifth competition (currently known as Junior 'A') therefore have to drop down. That's 100% relegated.

- Sixth competition has one of the teams coming down from four (again, which one?), plus winners of what's currently the bottom competition (currently known as Junior 'B') coming up. That leaves room for only eight of the 12 teams coming down from what used to be the fifth division. The other four have to drop even further. It means that 100% of team currently in fifth competition are relegated at least one grade, and 33% of them are relegated two grades.

- You now have a new seventh competition (currently the sixth grade, Junior 'B'), involving four teams that currently play in the fifth competition (Junior 'A') and all the rest who currently ply their trade at Junior 'B' anyway. Means that all teams currently operating at Junior 'B' have been relegated from the sixth grade to the seventh - or again, 100% relegation."
Sorry, just 1 more point on this.

Your calculations are wrong.

The top 5 grades currently have 12 teams in each. i.e. 60 teams

Reducing each grade to 10, means those 60 teams would be divided into 6 grades.

So your last point about 4 teams that current play junior A etc is just incorrect.

BTW full agree about the pointlessness of the B championship system. That was the system from 2007 to 2010 i think

The system ive just outlined with winners and losers sections was the system from 2001 to 2006.

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 418 - 23/09/2022 13:49:14    2441647

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Replying To Onfor15:  "Sorry, just 1 more point on this.

Your calculations are wrong.

The top 5 grades currently have 12 teams in each. i.e. 60 teams

Reducing each grade to 10, means those 60 teams would be divided into 6 grades.

So your last point about 4 teams that current play junior A etc is just incorrect.

BTW full agree about the pointlessness of the B championship system. That was the system from 2007 to 2010 i think

The system ive just outlined with winners and losers sections was the system from 2001 to 2006."
A few points. First one is a bit like how one person might say tomato while another says tomayto.

You say reorganisation, I say relegation. Whatever you want to call it:
- Two teams drop from the top grade to the second grade. Reorganisation or relegation?
- Depending on whether or not you allow promotion (and we'll come to that in a minute), either four or five teams drop from the second grade to the third. Again, reorganisation or relegation?
- and so on down the line, but with even more teams being reorganised/relegated from one grade down to the next all the way along. I'd say there's a strong chance anybody making the drop would see it as relegation.

Secondly, you claiming that my point about four Junior 'A' teams is incorrect would in fairness be correct if you weren't allowing for promotion in the year of reorganisation. But imagine the outcry if you announced at the start of the year that the winners of the intermediate grade, for example, wouldn't be promoted to the top grade and would instead have to stay in the second.

Calling the second grade "Senior B" would be like putting make-up on a pig. It would still be the second grade, and the winners of intermediate would just be moving from 13 to 24 in the rankings to 11 to 20 in "Senior B", instead of from 1 to 12 in Senior as it currently applies.

I still don't like the unfairness of how the rest week would apply in your suggestion of two groups of five. A rest in week 4 or 5 would be far more advantageous to a team than the supposed "rest" somebody else would be getting in Week 1, despite how they wouldn't even have done anything yet to have a rest from.

Fair enough that I presumed wrongly what previous system you were referring to for football. I was unsure of the years in which those former systems applied. But I still don't like your suggestion.

You're basically proposing a variation on a straight knock-out competition with a back door, instead of it being group-based. You're only guaranteeing each team three matches, where currently, everybody gets five, and ten of the 12 teams in each grade get at least six.

You or anybody else can claim that a proposal is the best in the world, but reality is it's not worth a jot if highly unlikely to be approved.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 1037 - 23/09/2022 16:34:36    2441666

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On the rest week in week one, that would immediately compromise their second team and thus delay that championship. Of the 12 senior clubs at present, seven of the second teams are junior, Glynn are inter A, Bunclody and Shels junior A and Crossabeg I think are junior B.

beano (Wexford) - Posts: 1229 - 23/09/2022 19:44:41    2441673

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what do lads think is the best venue to attend tomorrow? where will the best games be?

Stmunnsriver (Wexford) - Posts: 2422 - 24/09/2022 08:52:33    2441685

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Loads of different ways people could try and cut it however I still would go back to the question - what is the problem that is trying to be solved for? is it holidays, is it rest time, is it managers trying to get things right? At the end of the day you have to ask the players what they want - five or six championship games or more breaks as the two cannot happen at the same time given the timeframe that is in it. Even if they were to run into the Leinster Championship and always enter the prior years champions, that may still hold up the current county championship if they are still involved. I would have though players what to be playing those championship games. The only thing I would be concerned about is that once lads call it a day at senior they don't want to play with the 2nds, which is where a lot of the younger lads start and could do with their help. Hopefully they continue playing but don't have to worry as much about the commitment.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1493 - 24/09/2022 09:20:38    2441688

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Replying To beano:  "On the rest week in week one, that would immediately compromise their second team and thus delay that championship. Of the 12 senior clubs at present, seven of the second teams are junior, Glynn are inter A, Bunclody and Shels junior A and Crossabeg I think are junior B."
In 2020 and in 2021, 33% of teams were idle in week 1.

The fixtures committee managed it just fine.

Under my suggestion it would be just 20% of teams idle in week 1.

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 418 - 24/09/2022 10:08:53    2441691

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Replying To Stmunnsriver:  "what do lads think is the best venue to attend tomorrow? where will the best games be?"
For Senior Patricks Park(Bunclody/Sars) and Wexford Park (Crossabeg/ Annes) are the 2 venues where everything is on the line for both teams. In those double headers Maudlintown Cushinstown is a dead rubber while Bannow need to beat Fethard who are already through to avoid being in a relegation play off. I'd go Wexford Park myself.

TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 32 - 24/09/2022 16:44:10    2441725

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