National Forum

Upcoming Special Congress

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Oh right, being honest I wasn't gone on to 1 that was linked to the league, so maybe Tommy Murphy 2.0 is the best of a bad lot, at least its every team in at the start of the allireland."
I think just linking League and Provincials to Championship will do. Jim McGuinness has a proposal which meets everyone in the middle. I remain uncovinced by the Tier 2. I think it only works when you have defined tiers with pro/rel between. Like club championships.

The GAA also has to look at disparity in funding and resources. Sligo has the same population as Roscommon. And having a strong soccer club in a crap league isn't an excuse.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 19/09/2021 16:41:59    2381646

Link

Replying To omahant:  "Only positive is that the Tier 2 can earn promotion as well.
If they go back to the pre-Super 8 qualifiers, I would like Rd 1 to have the 16 weakest NFL non-Prov Finalists and strongest 8 getting the Rd 2 byes (Muns & Conn SF bye teams should not be exempt again from Rd 1)."
It's not really promotion if you only get one game in Tier 1 which will likely be against Kerry or Dublin or Mayo.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 19/09/2021 16:43:14    2381647

Link

Replying To Rolo2010:  "I think just linking League and Provincials to Championship will do. Jim McGuinness has a proposal which meets everyone in the middle. I remain uncovinced by the Tier 2. I think it only works when you have defined tiers with pro/rel between. Like club championships.

The GAA also has to look at disparity in funding and resources. Sligo has the same population as Roscommon. And having a strong soccer club in a crap league isn't an excuse."
The flaw in linking the league and the provincials to the main championship is that it distorts the incentives for teams and in fact could lead to perverse incentives. In the McGuinness-type proposal the league happens first presumably and so the top 11 teams in the league are already guaranteed a place in the championship final-16 and are seeded 1-11. The four provincial winners, if not already qualified, are seeded 12-15, otherwise it's those in league positions 12-15 who qualify. Position 16 is taken by the Tier 2 winner.

Well, for teams who are 1-11, why bother then putting much of an effort into the provincial championships. It's only teams in positions 12-15 who are in potential danger and that's only in the case a team lower down wins a province.

In fact, bizarrely, it might be in a top team's interest to throw a match, either to be eliminated early to allow time to concentrate on the more important All Ireland series that's coming up or even to affect who qualifies for the final 16.

For example, say Kerry finish safely in the top 11 and Cork are at number 15 in the league rankings. So Cork are safely into the All Ireland final-16 provided no team from lower down in the league wins their province.
So say Kerry put in an effort and defeat Cork in the Munster semi-final. Cork though still remain in the competition due to their league placing. Now say Kerry play Tipperary in the final, there could be an incentive to lose to Tipp to eliminate Cork and have Tipp, a much weaker team based on league form, in the final 16. Even if there's a seeding boost for winning your province, that would be of minimal value to the top teams who will already have finished high up in the league and will be guaranteed a high seed position anyway.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 103 - 19/09/2021 18:00:05    2381668

Link

Replying To Rolo2010:  "It's not really promotion if you only get one game in Tier 1 which will likely be against Kerry or Dublin or Mayo."
Just saying, if they go back....not that I'd want it.

I agree with prior poster - best middle of the road approach is the Jim McG Plan - 4 Prov Champs, NFL Top 11 non-Champs and prior year Tier 2 Champ.

The only change I'd make is to merge Divs 1 & 2 into two mixed quality groups of 8 - then, the top 11 would need to earn their KO place, unlike Jim McG Plan where all 8 Div 1 make it before kicking a ball.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 19/09/2021 18:07:15    2381670

Link

Replying To CeachtPeile:  "The flaw in linking the league and the provincials to the main championship is that it distorts the incentives for teams and in fact could lead to perverse incentives. In the McGuinness-type proposal the league happens first presumably and so the top 11 teams in the league are already guaranteed a place in the championship final-16 and are seeded 1-11. The four provincial winners, if not already qualified, are seeded 12-15, otherwise it's those in league positions 12-15 who qualify. Position 16 is taken by the Tier 2 winner.

Well, for teams who are 1-11, why bother then putting much of an effort into the provincial championships. It's only teams in positions 12-15 who are in potential danger and that's only in the case a team lower down wins a province.

In fact, bizarrely, it might be in a top team's interest to throw a match, either to be eliminated early to allow time to concentrate on the more important All Ireland series that's coming up or even to affect who qualifies for the final 16.

For example, say Kerry finish safely in the top 11 and Cork are at number 15 in the league rankings. So Cork are safely into the All Ireland final-16 provided no team from lower down in the league wins their province.
So say Kerry put in an effort and defeat Cork in the Munster semi-final. Cork though still remain in the competition due to their league placing. Now say Kerry play Tipperary in the final, there could be an incentive to lose to Tipp to eliminate Cork and have Tipp, a much weaker team based on league form, in the final 16. Even if there's a seeding boost for winning your province, that would be of minimal value to the top teams who will already have finished high up in the league and will be guaranteed a high seed position anyway."
That's a really good point.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4221 - 19/09/2021 18:48:13    2381677

Link

Replying To CeachtPeile:  "The flaw in linking the league and the provincials to the main championship is that it distorts the incentives for teams and in fact could lead to perverse incentives. In the McGuinness-type proposal the league happens first presumably and so the top 11 teams in the league are already guaranteed a place in the championship final-16 and are seeded 1-11. The four provincial winners, if not already qualified, are seeded 12-15, otherwise it's those in league positions 12-15 who qualify. Position 16 is taken by the Tier 2 winner.

Well, for teams who are 1-11, why bother then putting much of an effort into the provincial championships. It's only teams in positions 12-15 who are in potential danger and that's only in the case a team lower down wins a province.

In fact, bizarrely, it might be in a top team's interest to throw a match, either to be eliminated early to allow time to concentrate on the more important All Ireland series that's coming up or even to affect who qualifies for the final 16.

For example, say Kerry finish safely in the top 11 and Cork are at number 15 in the league rankings. So Cork are safely into the All Ireland final-16 provided no team from lower down in the league wins their province.
So say Kerry put in an effort and defeat Cork in the Munster semi-final. Cork though still remain in the competition due to their league placing. Now say Kerry play Tipperary in the final, there could be an incentive to lose to Tipp to eliminate Cork and have Tipp, a much weaker team based on league form, in the final 16. Even if there's a seeding boost for winning your province, that would be of minimal value to the top teams who will already have finished high up in the league and will be guaranteed a high seed position anyway."
It's a flawed proposal but only way to keep both camps happy. Provincial councils won't let prov championships be scrapped and they are the largest barrier to reform.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 19/09/2021 19:23:23    2381686

Link

Replying To Rolo2010:  "I think just linking League and Provincials to Championship will do. Jim McGuinness has a proposal which meets everyone in the middle. I remain uncovinced by the Tier 2. I think it only works when you have defined tiers with pro/rel between. Like club championships.

The GAA also has to look at disparity in funding and resources. Sligo has the same population as Roscommon. And having a strong soccer club in a crap league isn't an excuse."
I must look up Jim McGuinness"s proposal again, a lot of people seemed to like that 1.

And ya there needs to be a better spread of the money to the weaker counties but we all know that won't happen as its easier cut 16 counties lose.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 19/09/2021 19:25:30    2381687

Link

you have to laugh at all the sh*te on here the solution is already there the same format as every county uses for their own championship and the same format as the ladies championship and make sure it is marketed correctly. why try and reinvent the wheel. The only problem is that many counties and there supporters are living in cuckoo land and believe that junior and intermediate grade are beneath them and this is the real reason why there is such resistance to this format.

breffnibluewhite (Cavan) - Posts: 454 - 19/09/2021 20:22:07    2381697

Link

Replying To breffnibluewhite:  "you have to laugh at all the sh*te on here the solution is already there the same format as every county uses for their own championship and the same format as the ladies championship and make sure it is marketed correctly. why try and reinvent the wheel. The only problem is that many counties and there supporters are living in cuckoo land and believe that junior and intermediate grade are beneath them and this is the real reason why there is such resistance to this format."
How do you market a lower tier effectively?.
If the GAA manages to make these new competitions even remotely as popular as the prime tournaments they'll have achieved what no other sporting body in earth has done.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1705 - 19/09/2021 21:48:23    2381721

Link

The actual set up itself will go along way towards it marketing itself ie teams of similar standard playing each other on good pitches in the summer months and teams playing more attack minded open football as they are not setting up to avoid a serious hammering from a division one team. The attendances at these matches will be every as high or higher than with the current set up.

breffnibluewhite (Cavan) - Posts: 454 - 19/09/2021 23:27:36    2381743

Link

I wonder why the Jim McGuinness Plan (4+11+1, 4 Prov Champs + NFL Top 11 non Prov Champs + 1 prior yr Tier 2 Champ), or the similar Sean Kelly Plan (8+6+2, 8 Prov Finalists + NFL Top 6 non Prov Finalists + 2 prior yr Tier 2 Finalists) didn't get more traction ?

I'd improve on the Sean K Plan with 5 tweaks -

1) 8 current yr Prov Finalists get byes and go head-to-head in following yr Prov SFs (this gives other teams a chance to break through);

2) Current seeding based on NFL ranking (so a Prov Finalist could have any seeding from 1-16);

3) Div 1 teams are seeded 1-4 & 9-12 based on final table position, while Div 2 teams are seeded 5-8 & 13-16 (low teams displaced by any current yr Div 3/4 Prov Finalist/prior yr T2 Finalists, as req'd);

4) Top 8 seeds (1v8, 2v7 etc) with 4 winners to QFs and 4 losers hosting 4 'Last 12' ties; Other 8 seeds (9v16, 10v15 etc) in KO with 4 winners to play away in 4 'Last 12' ties;

5) Tier 1 QF 8 to NFL Div 1 in the following yr; other 8 teams to Div 2 (include current yr T2 Finalists).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 21/09/2021 02:10:14    2381980

Link

Replying To Galway9801:  "How do you market a lower tier effectively?.
If the GAA manages to make these new competitions even remotely as popular as the prime tournaments they'll have achieved what no other sporting body in earth has done."
Short answer is I dunno. But while I think about it, here are two examples, drawn from European rugby and English soccer.

Rugby - there's the European Champions Cup (tier 1) and the Challenge Cup (tier 2). Am sure the Challenge Cup teams in any given year would love to be in the Champions Cup instead, even if they have no realistic chance of winning it. But they still take the Challenge Cup seriously and they play to win. Attendances at finals prior to Covid-19 were generally around 25,000 to 30,000.

English soccer - there's the FA Cup and the FA Trophy. The FA Trophy is for non-league semi-professional teams. These are all entitled to enter the FA Cup as well, which they obviously haven't a hope of winning, and for most of them, even making it to the first round proper is an achievement. So they play separately in the FA Trophy, with the finals also played at Wembley, where they generally get attendances of between 20,000 and 40,000 people, depending on who's playing.

I don't know the ins and outs of how European Rugby or the English FA built momentum for and interest in these competitions in the first place, but it's not quite the case that no other sporting body has ever managed to make secondary competitions "even remotely as popular as the prime tournaments", as you suggest.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2244 - 22/09/2021 13:07:13    2382310

Link

Replying To tirawleybaron:  "Proposal B is the best option but a lot of turkeys will have to vote for Christmas to get it over the line


I'll give you odds on the outcome

Proposal A - 4/1
Proposal B - 200/1
Proposal C - 1/50"
.

It appears from the Examiner that there is also a proposal D - revert back to the pre 2019 back door system with no Super 8's. As radical change is unlikely this year its a choice of C or D. And with a shortened season D would seem the more likely/logical outcome.

timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 22/09/2021 13:48:47    2382319

Link

Replying To Pikeman96:  "Short answer is I dunno. But while I think about it, here are two examples, drawn from European rugby and English soccer.

Rugby - there's the European Champions Cup (tier 1) and the Challenge Cup (tier 2). Am sure the Challenge Cup teams in any given year would love to be in the Champions Cup instead, even if they have no realistic chance of winning it. But they still take the Challenge Cup seriously and they play to win. Attendances at finals prior to Covid-19 were generally around 25,000 to 30,000.

English soccer - there's the FA Cup and the FA Trophy. The FA Trophy is for non-league semi-professional teams. These are all entitled to enter the FA Cup as well, which they obviously haven't a hope of winning, and for most of them, even making it to the first round proper is an achievement. So they play separately in the FA Trophy, with the finals also played at Wembley, where they generally get attendances of between 20,000 and 40,000 people, depending on who's playing.

I don't know the ins and outs of how European Rugby or the English FA built momentum for and interest in these competitions in the first place, but it's not quite the case that no other sporting body has ever managed to make secondary competitions "even remotely as popular as the prime tournaments", as you suggest."
I like your approach. Look and learn from others..

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 22/09/2021 14:30:03    2382330

Link

Replying To Pikeman96:  "Short answer is I dunno. But while I think about it, here are two examples, drawn from European rugby and English soccer.

Rugby - there's the European Champions Cup (tier 1) and the Challenge Cup (tier 2). Am sure the Challenge Cup teams in any given year would love to be in the Champions Cup instead, even if they have no realistic chance of winning it. But they still take the Challenge Cup seriously and they play to win. Attendances at finals prior to Covid-19 were generally around 25,000 to 30,000.

English soccer - there's the FA Cup and the FA Trophy. The FA Trophy is for non-league semi-professional teams. These are all entitled to enter the FA Cup as well, which they obviously haven't a hope of winning, and for most of them, even making it to the first round proper is an achievement. So they play separately in the FA Trophy, with the finals also played at Wembley, where they generally get attendances of between 20,000 and 40,000 people, depending on who's playing.

I don't know the ins and outs of how European Rugby or the English FA built momentum for and interest in these competitions in the first place, but it's not quite the case that no other sporting body has ever managed to make secondary competitions "even remotely as popular as the prime tournaments", as you suggest."
They're properly marketed, there's financial rewards and the tournaments are not played in a graveyard shift time wise. The Tailteann Cup wasn't named for months. It was to be played on successive weekends from mid June to early July. That says it all. Who would wan't to be involved in that?

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 22/09/2021 14:46:16    2382336

Link

Replying To Greengrass:  "They're properly marketed, there's financial rewards and the tournaments are not played in a graveyard shift time wise. The Tailteann Cup wasn't named for months. It was to be played on successive weekends from mid June to early July. That says it all. Who would wan't to be involved in that?"
Properly marketed - exactly the thing the GAA could look at, to see how this was/is achieved.

Financial rewards - not really a runner in an amateur sport. And doubt it makes much difference to the many thousands who follow their team in a final anyway. They're hardly thinking "great, if my team wins this, they get x amount in prize money". It's more about the prestige of winning even a secondary competition.

Graveyard shift time-wise - The June/July period is hardly graveyard shift. Instead, it's peak season.

Finally, wouldn't worry about how the cup wasn't named right from the start. The cup for the Munster Senior Football Championship still doesn't have a name. Nobody suggests that demeans the competition itself.

I reckon all this talk about alternative structures is going to turn out to be moot anyway. Am led to believe by some senior admin figures that by far the most likely outcome is a return to the system that applied up to 2018 - i.e. provincial knock-outs, back door, and straight quarter-finals rather than Super 8s.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2244 - 22/09/2021 15:09:54    2382345

Link

I feel like the old system and no super 8s would be best for now.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4221 - 22/09/2021 17:36:36    2382395

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I feel like the old system and no super 8s would be best for now."
Agree but I would ditch the Tailteann Cup. Let a Div 3 or 4 side go on a run if they can.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 22/09/2021 17:51:14    2382399

Link

It is probably the best solution to stick with the old pre Super 8 competition. Before 2018 that is. GAA will face a really big challenge over the coming years, with the new URC rugby competition. Both RTE and Tg4, two GAA stalwarts (well TG4 anyway) or heavily involved.
The good news for GAA is that the Govt can no longer ban the games, like they did this year. So next year in Jan 2022, there will be almost a full schedule and also much bigger crowds.
The bad news is that RTE have almost given up on the games, to concentrate on the Rugby and TG4 to a lesser extent. So getting TV coverage will not be easy. Can the GAA approach UTV.

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 2519 - 22/09/2021 22:16:03    2382447

Link

Article in Examiner says a proposal has been put forward behind the scenes to have provincial group stages. So Ulster will be split into one group of 5 and one group of 4.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 22/09/2021 23:10:18    2382455

Link