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Upcoming Special Congress

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Replying To Rolo2010: "They don't deserve a shot over counties competing in Div 1 or 2. The current system is completely different anf you know that so stop acting the fool." They don't get a shot OVER Division 1 and Division 2 counties. Who said that? They just get a shot at it as they have done since the beginning. This topic is called 'upcoming special congress'. Proposal A,B and status quo are being debated and not what Rolo from Donegal wants. Perhaps take a dose of your own advice. bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 14/09/2021 21:25:32 2380754 Link
Replying To bennybunny: "They don't get a shot OVER Division 1 and Division 2 counties. Who said that? They just get a shot at it as they have done since the beginning. This topic is called 'upcoming special congress'. Proposal A,B and status quo are being debated and not what Rolo from Donegal wants. Perhaps take a dose of your own advice." I'm aware of what the thread is about. I did create it. They do. Only the top 5 in Div 1 qualify for Senior. Proposal B is clearly laid out and yet you seem to have ignored that and created your own fantasy format which nobody at Congress is debating. Perhaps you should take my advice and stop acting the fool. Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 14/09/2021 21:47:57 2380761 Link
Replying To Rolo2010: "I'm aware of what the thread is about. I did create it. They do. Only the top 5 in Div 1 qualify for Senior. Proposal B is clearly laid out and yet you seem to have ignored that and created your own fantasy format which nobody at Congress is debating. Perhaps you should take my advice and stop acting the fool." You are right. It is well laid out. I am referring to the below proposal B below. Nothing I have said differs from the below. You either haven't read my posts or read the proposals. Not surprising given your responses. l Proposal 'B' The second option would essentially move the National League format into the championship. With each team playing seven matches in their respective divisions, it would then filter into an All-Ireland series. In the 'Preliminary' All-Ireland quarter-finals, the teams that finish second and third in Division 2 would be drawn to play the teams that finish top of Division 3 and 4. In the All-Ireland quarter-finals, the top four teams from Division 1 would be drawn to play against the team that finishes 5th in Division 1, the Division 2 winners and the winners of the 'Preliminary' quarter-finals. The All-Ireland semi-finals and final would then follow. The Tailteann Cup would provide for the teams from Divisions 3 and 4, that did not qualify for the All-Ireland series. The provincial championships would be retained, but as standalone competitions earlier in the year. bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 14/09/2021 23:42:14 2380779 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "I agree completely with this. When the club player's association first came in they came up with a season very like this one in one of their proposals. They had a traditional style All Ireland cup to start the season. 4 Provinces moving on to All Ireland semifinals. They then had 2 groups of 8 in each tier for the championship. It was simple but ticked a lot of the right boxes for me. Kieran Donaghy I believe has supported a similar championship format also." Two groups of 8 would've been better - even if they had the top 4 in each going to AI QFs, all 8 Div 1 teams could make it on merit. As it is, there is an illogical 'doughnut hole' with the NFL top 11 going through, except for 6th to 8th - just crazy. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 15/09/2021 02:33:52 2380783 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "I think the Provincial championships are decoupled from the AI. Top 5 from division 1, top 3 from division 2 and the champions of division 3 and 4 make the knockout rounds. Of all the formats this is the one that I absolutely despise." If they went with Divs 1 & 2 and with each Div having 2 groups of 8 - For the AI KO, they could have the top 5 in each Div 1 group going to 5 cross over 'double chance' ties (1v5, 2v4, 3v3), 5 winners to QFs, 5 losers to 3 Playoff ties. The remaining Playoff team could have been from a 'head to head' between two Div 2 group winners. I know you don't like the latter, but it would be better (and limited). Div 2 (2nds to 5ths) in 4 'Tier 2 AI QFs' - Champs go up with group winners (3 total/ 3 down from Div 1). omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 15/09/2021 02:58:11 2380784 Link
Replying To brianb: "I think any tiered championship needs to have fluid movement between the levels. If you win one level you move up to the next. I think 2 tiers would be enough and have 2/3 teams moving up and down each year. Both proposals miss out on this which would seem to be a fundamental and fatal flaw in how you organize a meaningful competition. I think we need to keep the provincial championships and the winners should always get to play in tier 1 in the year they win. That might make it difficult numbers wise but this could be managed using the swiss system where teams get a set number of games to sort out the final seeding. With say teams 3,4,5,6 going into all Ireland 1/4 finals and teams 1&2 going straight to the semi final. Round robin groups nearly always lead to dead games / straight knock outs have fewer games for all teams - using a swiss league system gets around both of these problems giving all teams more games." I had an idea where the top 16 could be drawn into 3 balanced mixed quality groups of 5, 5 & 6 teams. With 5-team groups playing separate round robins and the 6-team group playing the other 10 teams - the top 8 in a combined 16-team, 10-match table could decide Aussie AFL-style Playoff teams (top 4 get KO 2nd chance, lower 4 in one chance KO for 2 QF berths). omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 15/09/2021 03:05:37 2380785 Link
Replying To omahant: "If they went with Divs 1 & 2 and with each Div having 2 groups of 8 - For the AI KO, they could have the top 5 in each Div 1 group going to 5 cross over 'double chance' ties (1v5, 2v4, 3v3), 5 winners to QFs, 5 losers to 3 Playoff ties. The remaining Playoff team could have been from a 'head to head' between two Div 2 group winners. I know you don't like the latter, but it would be better (and limited). Div 2 (2nds to 5ths) in 4 'Tier 2 AI QFs' - Champs go up with group winners (3 total/ 3 down from Div 1)." I personally don't like formats where so many teams go through to the latter stages. If you've 16 teams in 2 tiers with relegation from the top tier at stake I'd only have 6 teams progress to the knockout rounds. Having too many teams go through just kills the intensity of the group stage. 5 from division 1 is too many going through to the All Ireland series. The hurling championship was made v similar to the old National league of 2 divisions of 6. It used to be that the 6 team division 1A as a higher division to division 1B was an excellent league format and it was. It would have been too exclusive for the championship though. In football the same problem exists 1 with top tier of 8 teams. The answer is just to merge division 1 and 2 to be the top tier championship competition. Not do this stupid stuff of lower level teams getting into the AI playoffs. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 15/09/2021 10:45:22 2380822 Link
Replying To omahant: "I had an idea where the top 16 could be drawn into 3 balanced mixed quality groups of 5, 5 & 6 teams. With 5-team groups playing separate round robins and the 6-team group playing the other 10 teams - the top 8 in a combined 16-team, 10-match table could decide Aussie AFL-style Playoff teams (top 4 get KO 2nd chance, lower 4 in one chance KO for 2 QF berths)." That's another innovative approach to getting more games between teams at all levels. You'd end up with knock-out relegation games at the bottom of the table as well which would be very important in their own right as well. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 281 - 15/09/2021 11:21:42 2380840 Link
Replying To bennybunny: "You are right. It is well laid out. I am referring to the below proposal B below. Nothing I have said differs from the below. You either haven't read my posts or read the proposals. Not surprising given your responses. l Proposal 'B' The second option would essentially move the National League format into the championship. With each team playing seven matches in their respective divisions, it would then filter into an All-Ireland series. In the 'Preliminary' All-Ireland quarter-finals, the teams that finish second and third in Division 2 would be drawn to play the teams that finish top of Division 3 and 4. In the All-Ireland quarter-finals, the top four teams from Division 1 would be drawn to play against the team that finishes 5th in Division 1, the Division 2 winners and the winners of the 'Preliminary' quarter-finals. The All-Ireland semi-finals and final would then follow. The Tailteann Cup would provide for the teams from Divisions 3 and 4, that did not qualify for the All-Ireland series. The provincial championships would be retained, but as standalone competitions earlier in the year." Thank you for laying out why this proposal is awful. But it doesn't surpruse me that a Cork man wants an easier route into the All-Ireland. Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 15/09/2021 11:46:35 2380850 Link
Replying To Rolo2010: "Thank you for laying out why this proposal is awful. But it doesn't surpruse me that a Cork man wants an easier route into the All-Ireland." That same Corkman, and I'm sure that he's not in the spring or even the summer of his years, seems to have a particular inability to grasp what's actually happening. Cork the biggest county, with probably the most clubs, with great funding has managed to win a mere 7 All Ireland senior football titles in 134 years of entering. SEVEN out of 134, for the BIGGEST county. How the hell is that success? Kerry in the meantime has won 37 titles in the 134 years of trying. That is success. And when I state that Cork is only an intermediate level county (not even high intermediate), oh…he gets up on his high horse and proclaims that we can't have that, that Cork is a senior footballing county. Such delusions of grandeur have I rarely ever seen. The system needs to be changed, and changed utterly. A terrible beauty has to be born. foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1910 - 15/09/2021 15:49:30 2380930 Link
It is actually so irritating that they bring an opportunity for change to the table and manage to have the options worse than what is there already. You wouldn't have thought that possible really. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 15/09/2021 18:31:48 2380960 Link
Replying To brianb: "That's another innovative approach to getting more games between teams at all levels. You'd end up with knock-out relegation games at the bottom of the table as well which would be very important in their own right as well." For that Bottom 8 relegation, I'd keep the AFL-style playoffs too (similar to 2021 Liam McC Cup), where there is an incentive to get into the upper 4 for the 2nd chance). Or, merge that Tier 1 Bottom 8 with the Tier 2 Top 8 for a 16-team AFL-style Tier 2 Championship - that could be a cracker - better than the Race for Sam ? omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 15/09/2021 21:19:07 2380996 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "I personally don't like formats where so many teams go through to the latter stages. If you've 16 teams in 2 tiers with relegation from the top tier at stake I'd only have 6 teams progress to the knockout rounds. Having too many teams go through just kills the intensity of the group stage. 5 from division 1 is too many going through to the All Ireland series. The hurling championship was made v similar to the old National league of 2 divisions of 6. It used to be that the 6 team division 1A as a higher division to division 1B was an excellent league format and it was. It would have been too exclusive for the championship though. In football the same problem exists 1 with top tier of 8 teams. The answer is just to merge division 1 and 2 to be the top tier championship competition. Not do this stupid stuff of lower level teams getting into the AI playoffs." When I think about the number of teams that should advance from the 5-team Munster SHC round robin pre-COVID - I think "3" (60%) is perfect ! omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 15/09/2021 21:23:52 2380998 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "It is actually so irritating that they bring an opportunity for change to the table and manage to have the options worse than what is there already. You wouldn't have thought that possible really." I wouldn't say the awful league-based AIC is worse than what we have - it's still better, if only because teams are getting more AIC games. That said, based on the below, it seems the GPA is rallying behind this terrible design - and why the slide show ? - pretend there is sophistication ? https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/0913/1246546-gpa-set-to-support-new-football-season-format/?app=true omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 15/09/2021 21:38:06 2381003 Link
Replying To omahant: "When I think about the number of teams that should advance from the 5-team Munster SHC round robin pre-COVID - I think "3" (60%) is perfect !" I think it's different when there's only 4 games each. It's more than I like but it's ok. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 15/09/2021 22:53:25 2381022 Link
Does any1 know why special Congress was postponed till October 23rd? KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 19/09/2021 11:09:59 2381581 Link
Replying To KingdomBoy1: "Does any1 know why special Congress was postponed till October 23rd?" Give more counties to debate. Neither is likely to meet the 60% threshold. Super 8s are likely gone as well. So from next year we'll get Provincials, qualifiers and Horan's crap Tommy Murphy 2.0 cup. Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 19/09/2021 12:51:56 2381593 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "It is actually so irritating that they bring an opportunity for change to the table and manage to have the options worse than what is there already. You wouldn't have thought that possible really." Proposal B is the way forward but they need to limit it to Div 1 and 2 sides. Provincial champions are in as well. That means 16 - 20 teams competing every year. I know it is flawed and it won't make Div 1 any better but best I can see happening. Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 19/09/2021 14:32:27 2381610 Link
Replying To Rolo2010: "Give more counties to debate. Neither is likely to meet the 60% threshold. Super 8s are likely gone as well. So from next year we'll get Provincials, qualifiers and Horan's crap Tommy Murphy 2.0 cup." Only positive is that the Tier 2 can earn promotion as well. If they go back to the pre-Super 8 qualifiers, I would like Rd 1 to have the 16 weakest NFL non-Prov Finalists and strongest 8 getting the Rd 2 byes (Muns & Conn SF bye teams should not be exempt again from Rd 1). omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 19/09/2021 15:16:38 2381616 Link
Replying To Rolo2010: "Give more counties to debate. Neither is likely to meet the 60% threshold. Super 8s are likely gone as well. So from next year we'll get Provincials, qualifiers and Horan's crap Tommy Murphy 2.0 cup." Oh right, being honest I wasn't gone on to 1 that was linked to the league, so maybe Tommy Murphy 2.0 is the best of a bad lot, at least its every team in at the start of the allireland. KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 19/09/2021 16:15:51 2381637 Link