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You could still have senior, intermediate and junior championships like in the women's and keep the provincial championships. Let every county take part in their provincial championships, and when they get beaten they go into the All-Ireland of whatever grade they're in. But if they go all the way and win their provincial championship (or make the final or whatever is decided), they get a stab at senior instead. I know that might complicate things; let's say you have a 10-team senior championship and then Offaly reach a Leinster final (if you let the 8 provincial finalists in); suddenly you have to make room for an 11th team. But you'd fix that by saying the eight provincial finalists plus the intermediate champions plus the highest other team in the league (or the four provincial champions plus the intermediate champions plus the highest five other teams in the league, or whatever) would qualify for senior, so there'd be a bit of fluidity to it. But it's doable I think. You might seed the two smaller provinces to avoid a weaker county contesting the senior championship by mere luck of the draw and getting riddled in the All-Ireland senior phase.
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1029 - 13/09/2021 22:46:07
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Has anyone any idea how this league based Championship would work? sounds like what we might be getting.
Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2739 - 14/09/2021 11:10:41
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Replying To Tirchonaill1: "Has anyone any idea how this league based Championship would work? sounds like what we might be getting." I suspect its where the National League finish determines a teams seeding in the Provincial Championships, keeping the top teams in each Province apart in early rounds, where the top two National League sides from each Province probably are in opposite sides of the draw.
It could also bypass the Provincial Championship.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1106 - 14/09/2021 11:17:55
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Replying To Commodore: "I suspect its where the National League finish determines a teams seeding in the Provincial Championships, keeping the top teams in each Province apart in early rounds, where the top two National League sides from each Province probably are in opposite sides of the draw.
It could also bypass the Provincial Championship." It does bypass provincials. Only League placings will determine which county competes for Sam.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 14/09/2021 11:48:13
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Replying To Commodore: "I suspect its where the National League finish determines a teams seeding in the Provincial Championships, keeping the top teams in each Province apart in early rounds, where the top two National League sides from each Province probably are in opposite sides of the draw.
It could also bypass the Provincial Championship." I think the Provincial championships are decoupled from the AI.
Top 5 from division 1, top 3 from division 2 and the champions of division 3 and 4 make the knockout rounds.
Of all the formats this is the one that I absolutely despise.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 14/09/2021 11:57:51
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I think any tiered championship needs to have fluid movement between the levels. If you win one level you move up to the next. I think 2 tiers would be enough and have 2/3 teams moving up and down each year. Both proposals miss out on this which would seem to be a fundamental and fatal flaw in how you organize a meaningful competition.
I think we need to keep the provincial championships and the winners should always get to play in tier 1 in the year they win. That might make it difficult numbers wise but this could be managed using the swiss system where teams get a set number of games to sort out the final seeding. With say teams 3,4,5,6 going into all Ireland 1/4 finals and teams 1&2 going straight to the semi final.
Round robin groups nearly always lead to dead games / straight knock outs have fewer games for all teams - using a swiss league system gets around both of these problems giving all teams more games.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 14/09/2021 12:30:22
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Any inter county football championship based on a League of some sort will be better than the current setup. Ideally I'd have a championship with 2 groups of 9, 4 home and away matches each to reach semi/ quarter finals.
But any league based system will be better than the current setup. The current setup means most teams have just 1 or 2 games in the main competition which is crazy. Basing it on provincials is also crazy. Munster had 0 meaningful games this year. Leinster had 0 meaningful games. However Leinster did have a great game between Offaly and Louth which in a proper setup would have led to a step up for the winners instead of the knowledge the winners wouldn't win their province anyway. Even in Ulster all the first round games were unfortunately mismatches. And Dublin exited the championship without ever playing against Tyrone, Donegal, Kerry, Cork or Armagh all of which would be attractive fixtures if they were allowed occur.
tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 753 - 14/09/2021 13:22:28
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Replying To wicklowsupport: "Well I think it depends on your ambition. If I were a player then my aim would be to play at the top level against the best teams and the best players. If this is your yardstick, how many of the weaker teams in the hurling championship have managed to achieve that goal? I can't name one. Ok, there's been limited and I mean limited success for Laois and Carlow in terms of promotion to the Leinster championship and in spots they have been competitive without really challenging the elite. I think somethings in the GAA, there is this perception that we want the weaker counties to improve and be competitive without challenging the establishment that exists in hurling and football. I don't count the Nicky Rackard and the other competitions as an All Ireland in their own right.
I accept that it is a fine balancing act but I am a member of club and the goal is always to be senior and to win a county championship. I am applying the same logic to the inter county scene. I accept that my own county will probably never win the All Ireland in my lifetime but I would like to see us competing at provincial level (if it continues to exist) and to play in Division 2 of the NFL and challenge the top end of the market. I would hope that a player wouldn't need to switch counties to get recognition and fulfil his potential but equally I wouldn't expect a player to train for 30-40 hours per week to play in a mickey-mouse competition that leads to nowhere as most of the previous competitions of this nature were." If you want to play at the top level, then work your way up through junior (Wicklow is very junior), intermediate, and when you get to the senior level, nobody will stop you from
achieving your wish!
foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1903 - 14/09/2021 13:51:02
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Replying To bennybunny: "Vote in option B. In terms of solving the tiered championship or giving every one a shot at Sam, it solves both. It is tiered and nobody is excluded at the start of the year. If Leitrim win Division 4 and show good form they get a shot at All Ireland series. It's a long shot but currently it's a long shot. The better Division 1 sides have a better chance under B but they do now anyway.
Playing provincial championships as separate competitions is fine with me. From a Munster perspective, I know it will be a while before we can really compete consistently. If it is run off preseason Kerry will probably put their C team...it will be a farce..but then again, it was a farce last year too.
They could look at provincial as Calcutta Cup or Triple Crown format. Next year, Meath and Dublin will be in Division 1. Let that match be the Leinster final. Dublin are going to be in it anyway. Meath are best of the rest. There would be no Munster championship next year as only Kerry are Division 1. If Cork or Clare improve significantly and get to Division 1, it can be reinstated. Only when they improve, will it be competitive anyway so having a Munster championship where Kerry win by default is better than this year's tripe. Mayo are better (though gap is narrower) than other Connacht teams. In Ulster there are 4 teams in Division 1..play it as triple Crown. Their own mini league. Winners are Ulster champions . Provincial councils get the gate receipts." That you mention the Calcutta Cup, bring a suggestion to mind that might help the Cork footballers, in addition to a month of novenas. Perhaps, we should re-name the Munster Football Cup, the Mother Teresa Cup? To give hope and inspiration to the nominally "senior" Cork footballers.
foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1903 - 14/09/2021 13:59:28
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Any inter county football championship based on a League of some sort will be better than the current setup. Ideally I'd have a championship with 2 top groups of 9, 4 home and away matches each to reach semi/ quarter finals, as well as a division 2 and 3.
But any league based system will be better than the current setup. The current setup means most teams have just 1 or 2 games in the main competition which is crazy. Basing it on provincials is also crazy. Munster had 0 meaningful games this year. Leinster had 0 meaningful games. However Leinster did have a great game between Offaly and Louth which in a proper setup would have led to a step up for the winners instead of the knowledge the winners wouldn't win their province anyway. Even in Ulster all the first round games were unfortunately mismatches. And Dublin exited the championship without ever playing against Tyrone, Donegal, Kerry, Cork or Armagh all of which would be attractive fixtures if they were allowed occur.
tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 753 - 14/09/2021 14:06:48
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Replying To brianb: "I think any tiered championship needs to have fluid movement between the levels. If you win one level you move up to the next. I think 2 tiers would be enough and have 2/3 teams moving up and down each year. Both proposals miss out on this which would seem to be a fundamental and fatal flaw in how you organize a meaningful competition.
I think we need to keep the provincial championships and the winners should always get to play in tier 1 in the year they win. That might make it difficult numbers wise but this could be managed using the swiss system where teams get a set number of games to sort out the final seeding. With say teams 3,4,5,6 going into all Ireland 1/4 finals and teams 1&2 going straight to the semi final.
Round robin groups nearly always lead to dead games / straight knock outs have fewer games for all teams - using a swiss league system gets around both of these problems giving all teams more games." Yeah I think 2 groups of 8. Made up of the following 16 teams.
4 Provincial champions from current year.
Top 5 from each tier 1 group from Previous year.
Tier 2 finalists from previous year.
Where Provincial champions have already qualified extra places will be awarded to 6th and 7th placed finishers in the previous season's tier 1 groups.
You need 4 more both 6th and 7th placed in each group are in.
You need only 1 and the 2 6th placed teams playoff for the final spot.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 14/09/2021 14:42:33
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Replying To Whammo86: "Yeah I think 2 groups of 8. Made up of the following 16 teams.
4 Provincial champions from current year.
Top 5 from each tier 1 group from Previous year.
Tier 2 finalists from previous year.
Where Provincial champions have already qualified extra places will be awarded to 6th and 7th placed finishers in the previous season's tier 1 groups.
You need 4 more both 6th and 7th placed in each group are in.
You need only 1 and the 2 6th placed teams playoff for the final spot." That would certainly work - there would be a lot more matches between the top teams a meaningful matches in the second tier to try and achieve promotion.
I'd add a lot of the suggestions on this forum would work a lot better than either of the proposals put forward for a vote. It seems that we're trying to push through solutions without first asking what we want to see.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 14/09/2021 15:31:37
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Replying To Rolo2010: "Kildare are in Div 1 not Meath. Leitrim shouldn't get a shot at Sam by winning Div 4." Thank you for correcting the Meath/Kildare issue. The fact that you honed in on that though????!!!!!. Apologies also to Kildare people...
Leitrim deserve a shot at Sam if they win Division 4.
There you go. That is also a normative statement
A positive statement now. In Proposal B, the Division 4 champions will get a shot at Sam.
If the status quo remains or if the tweaked provincial champions come in, the team that finishes BOTTOM of Division 4 gets a shot at Sam.
That is only right and proper. Another normative statement to finish up since you are fond of them ;)
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 14/09/2021 15:53:58
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Replying To tyroneed: "Any inter county football championship based on a League of some sort will be better than the current setup. Ideally I'd have a championship with 2 top groups of 9, 4 home and away matches each to reach semi/ quarter finals, as well as a division 2 and 3.
But any league based system will be better than the current setup. The current setup means most teams have just 1 or 2 games in the main competition which is crazy. Basing it on provincials is also crazy. Munster had 0 meaningful games this year. Leinster had 0 meaningful games. However Leinster did have a great game between Offaly and Louth which in a proper setup would have led to a step up for the winners instead of the knowledge the winners wouldn't win their province anyway. Even in Ulster all the first round games were unfortunately mismatches. And Dublin exited the championship without ever playing against Tyrone, Donegal, Kerry, Cork or Armagh all of which would be attractive fixtures if they were allowed occur." Be careful what you wish for. Doing away with the provincial championships won't do away with mismatches. Mismatches are part and parcel of sport. Hurling reformed it's structures yet it retained the provincial championships as a vital element of the championship summer. The tiered championship in hurling has not done away with mismatches. Most of the games in the tiered championships in hurling are played out of the spotlight in empty grounds. This year's finals in the tiered championships were eye opening. Fermanagh hammered Cavan in the Lory Meaghar final winning by fifteen points. Mayo hammered Tyrone in the Nicky Rackard final winning by sixteen points. It got worse in the Christy Ring final with Offaly annihilating Derry and winning by 21 points. The Joe McDonagh final was competitive but normal service in terms of this year's finals was resumed in the Liam McCarthy final as Limerick slaughtered Cork ultimately winning by 17 points. The last three Liam McCarthy finals have seen Tipp beat Kilkenny by 14 points, Limerick beat Waterford by 11 points and Limerick beat Cork by 17 points. From a competitive point of view those finals were complete duds. Restructuring will not see the end of mismatches. Ultimately if the football championships are to be restructured we must take gr at care to balance what we lose with what we gain. None of the current proposals will do that.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 14/09/2021 15:56:37
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Replying To foreveryoung: "That you mention the Calcutta Cup, bring a suggestion to mind that might help the Cork footballers, in addition to a month of novenas. Perhaps, we should re-name the Munster Football Cup, the Mother Teresa Cup? To give hope and inspiration to the nominally "senior" Cork footballers." Jesus wept.
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 14/09/2021 16:09:33
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Replying To brianb: "That would certainly work - there would be a lot more matches between the top teams a meaningful matches in the second tier to try and achieve promotion.
I'd add a lot of the suggestions on this forum would work a lot better than either of the proposals put forward for a vote. It seems that we're trying to push through solutions without first asking what we want to see." 100%, there's no end goal and as with everything in the GAA they're trying to suit everyone and will probably end up suiting no one.
The focus should be on getting the sorts of fixtures players want to play in.
Get a good top tier competition too and that elevates the second tier competition.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 14/09/2021 16:36:16
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Replying To Greengrass: "Be careful what you wish for. Doing away with the provincial championships won't do away with mismatches. Mismatches are part and parcel of sport. Hurling reformed it's structures yet it retained the provincial championships as a vital element of the championship summer. The tiered championship in hurling has not done away with mismatches. Most of the games in the tiered championships in hurling are played out of the spotlight in empty grounds. This year's finals in the tiered championships were eye opening. Fermanagh hammered Cavan in the Lory Meaghar final winning by fifteen points. Mayo hammered Tyrone in the Nicky Rackard final winning by sixteen points. It got worse in the Christy Ring final with Offaly annihilating Derry and winning by 21 points. The Joe McDonagh final was competitive but normal service in terms of this year's finals was resumed in the Liam McCarthy final as Limerick slaughtered Cork ultimately winning by 17 points. The last three Liam McCarthy finals have seen Tipp beat Kilkenny by 14 points, Limerick beat Waterford by 11 points and Limerick beat Cork by 17 points. From a competitive point of view those finals were complete duds. Restructuring will not see the end of mismatches. Ultimately if the football championships are to be restructured we must take gr at care to balance what we lose with what we gain. None of the current proposals will do that." Excellent post
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 14/09/2021 16:37:49
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Replying To bennybunny: "Thank you for correcting the Meath/Kildare issue. The fact that you honed in on that though????!!!!!. Apologies also to Kildare people...
Leitrim deserve a shot at Sam if they win Division 4.
There you go. That is also a normative statement
A positive statement now. In Proposal B, the Division 4 champions will get a shot at Sam.
If the status quo remains or if the tweaked provincial champions come in, the team that finishes BOTTOM of Division 4 gets a shot at Sam.
That is only right and proper. Another normative statement to finish up since you are fond of them ;)" They don't deserve a shot over counties competing in Div 1 or 2. The current system is completely different anf you know that so stop acting the fool.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 14/09/2021 17:32:53
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Replying To Rolo2010: "They don't deserve a shot over counties competing in Div 1 or 2. The current system is completely different anf you know that so stop acting the fool." As someone from a lower level county I completely agree.
I really don't think the lower division teams are helped in the long run by having a less competitive pathway to the All Ireland. Team's should be incentivised to raise standards not get an easy route to a knockout round they haven't really earned the right to get to.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 14/09/2021 19:13:11
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Replying To Whammo86: "As someone from a lower level county I completely agree.
I really don't think the lower division teams are helped in the long run by having a less competitive pathway to the All Ireland. Team's should be incentivised to raise standards not get an easy route to a knockout round they haven't really earned the right to get to." I do think the GAA wants a League based Championship but they should just have Div 1 and 2 teams competing. Maybe have a double elimination format so each county gets 2 championship games. Or just straight knockout which is what fans want when you get to the final stages.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 14/09/2021 20:17:26
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