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Replying To wexico15: "Sounds good, but how would the provincials been incorporated which seems to be a real sticking point to many." Only a sticking point for provincial councils and Ulster. Mayo, Dublin, Kerry, and Galway would be enough to flip the vote and their main concern is the 6th placed team being eliminated.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 27/10/2021 17:10:18
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Replying To Whammo86: "Could provincials and qualifiers at the start of the year and move into a tiered championship afterwards.
4 Provincial champions and then play the qualifiers down to 2 teams rather than 4. To be played in February and March
Those 6 teams are joined by another 6 teams from the previous season's championship, to include the second tier winners.
So tier 1 is a league of 12 teams playing a single round robin with top 4 making it to the semifinals.
Results from the provincials and qualifiers carry over.
Tier 2 takes 10 teams from the previous season's league to include the tier 3 champions.
Tier 3 is the remaining 10 teams.
Again previous fixtures are retained going forward.
Either 4 or 6 teams qualify for the tier 2 and 3 knockout stages.
Every team gets 2 shots at the All Ireland before moving into an appropriate tiered championship for themselves with progression guaranteed for the following season for the winners.
If Tyrone have had a harder Ulster championship and had to beat 2 tier 1 teams and Dublin have beaten none then Tyrone will have 2 wins with 9 fixtures remaining in April, May and June. Dublin will have 11 fixtures remaining. Dublin still have to take Leinster seriously because if they lose to Meath say who then go on to qualify, Dublin will have a loss on the board.
All teams go into the qualifiers with any games against teams in your tier counting towards your league record.
It's to make sure that teams aren't waiting around too long for fixtures. It's also to ensure that say a team in Leinster doesn't lose their place in tier 1 without having a shot at winning it back through an All Ireland based qualifiers.
The qualifiers would be tweaked to be more fair so that Munster and Connacht finalists enter in round 3 of 5 and Ulster and Leinster finalists enter in round 4 of 5, with Ulster and Leinster semifinalists joining in round 3.
It's the best I can do to come up with a league based championship and give teams more games at their own level but also have every team a chance at the All Ireland and have the Provincials linked in a fair manner." Seems overly complicated. If we going to have a three tier structure then just do it like clubs and hurling and have your senior, intermediate, and junior grades or wrap it around the league like they do in Down and Tyrone. Connecting the provincials seems to be strongly opposed by Div 3 and 4 counties so Ulster council will just have to face the music and accept change.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 27/10/2021 17:13:54
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Replying To Rolo2010: "Seems overly complicated. If we going to have a three tier structure then just do it like clubs and hurling and have your senior, intermediate, and junior grades or wrap it around the league like they do in Down and Tyrone. Connecting the provincials seems to be strongly opposed by Div 3 and 4 counties so Ulster council will just have to face the music and accept change." I think these things are always more complicated when written than they are when actually played.
My ideal would be just tiers without needing every team to be in with a chance of the All Ireland but I don't think that's likely currently unfortunately.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 27/10/2021 17:43:46
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Replying To Rolo2010: "Seems overly complicated. If we going to have a three tier structure then just do it like clubs and hurling and have your senior, intermediate, and junior grades or wrap it around the league like they do in Down and Tyrone. Connecting the provincials seems to be strongly opposed by Div 3 and 4 counties so Ulster council will just have to face the music and accept change." I wouldn't say Div 3 and 4 teams are opposed to provincials, but there opposed to the provincials having a vise grip over the whole structure and been a roadblock to change, if provincials were ran in Feb/Mar/ April and then a league/ championship later in the year like proposal B or some variation if winning your province and even making a provincial final had some sort of guarantee involved place in last 12 or 16 etc. Therefore maintaining a link to Sam McGuire I'd doubt anyone would be up in arms.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 27/10/2021 17:44:00
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Replying To Rolo2010: "Seems overly complicated. If we going to have a three tier structure then just do it like clubs and hurling and have your senior, intermediate, and junior grades or wrap it around the league like they do in Down and Tyrone. Connecting the provincials seems to be strongly opposed by Div 3 and 4 counties so Ulster council will just have to face the music and accept change." Weaker counties blaming the provincials for being rubbish is a lot of guff though too.
These counties get opportunities in the qualifiers.
They get opportunities to develop and progress in the league.
Counties like Monaghan, Cavan until recently in the league and Roscommon have all made advances up through the leagues and maintained higher levels for a while.
At the end of the day there are 32 counties in the competition, someone has to be worst.
Just because you can't cut it with the big guys doesn't mean you should get an leg up.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 27/10/2021 18:15:26
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Something that annoys me about this hurling comparison is that the whole thing is stupid for hurling too and it came about in a real poor manner.
Their championship whilst bringing in entertaining games at the minute is a bloody mess structurally and is doesn't take much for things to fall apart with it.
You can already see a bit of annoyance creeping in that Leinster is a good bit weaker than Munster.
What happens say if Kerry get promoted to the Leinster championship and Antrim are there also. You've 3 non Leinster teams in that championship at the expense of all the developing Leinster counties.
Their competition is big Munster 5 championship plus An Other championship.
What happens if a Waterford goes the way of Offaly and starts getting beatings every season in Munster but won't get relegated or even be at risk of relegation because the Munster teams don't want that.
The hurling teams let weaker teams get a preliminary quarterfinal game because they were able to work it also to their own self interests. This hurling fraternity rubbish is the biggest load of bull.
Hurling they've had a history of changing the league format left right and centre to try to protect the status of top teams.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 27/10/2021 18:23:35
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Replying To wexico15: "The introduction of the hurling round robin was a perfect example of introducing a new format, working out pros and cons as it proceeded and adapting accordingly. After its 1st run in 2018 an obvious issue was some teams playing 3 or 4 weekends in a row against teams who either had a 2 week break on just had back to back weekends, the provincial councils changed the scheduling for 2019 avoid these scenarios.
If there is a mindset of i don't like that aspect of the structure so bin the whole thing then we're on a never ending cycle and stuck with this horrorshow format we have for 2022." I hope you don't mind if I respond to your 2 posts together.
Firstly on the hurling fraternity that look after the smaller teams. My post was showing that this does not exist to any real extent. It is a closed shop making it difficult for teams to move up and down the rankings. Will lower ranked teams always get beaten because teams can't get the exposure or because they would be on a hiding to nothing anyway - that's a chicken and egg situation.
On the adaptation after the first run of the hurling provincial group stages - that was a very minor change. The structure stayed the same - adding an extra team to leinster was also fairly minor.
Proposal B needed a fairly large change in my opinion and I'm glad it was defeated.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 27/10/2021 20:33:25
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Replying To Rolo2010: "Problem with linking the provincials is that Kerry and Dublin will still have easier routes and won't have to take the League seriously. It seems to me that reverting back to two tiers in the League is the best solution. 4 division of 8 looks nice on paper but that plus the gulf in funding and resources had led to the massive gap we see now." You might be right with the back door route being there for Kerry and Dublin giving them a small advantage over Ulster and Connaught teams but the provincial entry would be more likely to be used by Ulster and Connaught counties.
Its a balance - if we keep the link and the provincial route bring winners only into the last 12 rather than winners in the last 8 and runners up in the last 12 I think we strike a decent balance between every team having a chance and using the league to seed the All Ireland.
I'd also agree that if using the league to seed the All Ireland it would be better to use a 1A/1B & 2A/2B structure.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 27/10/2021 20:39:35
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Replying To wicklowsupport: "I wouldn't be oppose to Option B with spots for the Provincial Champions rather than Div 3 & 4 champions if I thought that the GAA would devise a system whereby weaker counties could improve and progress back into the All Ireland championship but I don't blame weaker county for being skeptical of the GAA based upon their previous versions of the Tailteann cup where it is 'better out of sight and out of mind' and let the big boys get on with it.
I am a bit surprised at Kerry and some of the Northern counties like Donegal and Tyrone being so much in favour of the provincial championship when we hear year in year out about how Kerry are under cooked after waltzing their way through the Munster championship when they lose to the Northern team and Northern teams saying that it is like winning an All Ireland to win the Ulster championship and how they are worn out physically and mentally if they lose to Dublin or Kerry who are in easy provinces. It seems that these counties are confused themselves on what they want." Ya that's a good 1 for sure, if Kerry voted against the proposal then we can have no argument about going into games under cooked and like you say our ulster brothers can have no argument either about having too many tough games.
I liked a lot of what the proposal B brought but like I said all along it was lacking something and therefore I was happy it failed, things needed to be ironed out before the provincial power was handed over to crokepark because we all know this was going to be the end of the provincial councils.
It's not a big deal to give provincial champions an allireland quarter spot.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 27/10/2021 21:10:40
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A lot of people (i.e. everyone) have been giving out about a system that would let the 25th best team in the country into the championship and the 6th best team would be excluded. And I'd agree: maybe have the top 6 teams in Div 1 and the top 2 in Div 2 (not top 3) and you might be getting somewhere. But regarding such a lowly Div 4 team in the championship, consider this. Other sports do something similar. A team from League D of the UEFA Nations League (North Macedonia) qualified for EURO 2020. UEFA explicitly set it up that way, and there was no clamour or rancour about the 40th (41st as it turned out) best team out of 55 in Europe being there (Iceland and Bosnia and Herzegovina (12th and 13th) missed out). In the 2020 Olympic golf events, the lowest ranked player in the field of 60 for the men's event was ranked 356th. The highest ranked non-qualifier other than those who excluded themselves or fell foul of Covid was 13th as far as I can see. For the women's, it was 454th (highest non-qualifier: 16th).
A team coming 6th in Div 1 probably knows they're not at All-Ireland winning level yet, but I'm sure they'd be relieved to avoid relegation; I'd imagine Div 2 would have been a dogfight under Proposal B. But as a Leitrim fan, I'd probably rather my team were 6th in Div 1 than only just getting out of Div 4, even if it meant being out of the championship. And under proposal B, the Div 4 winners would play a team from Div 2 and probably lose, but they'd have had a crack at it. Remember how the Div 4 winners used to go into the quarterfinals of the National Football League? Laois even won it from Division 3 once. Anyway.
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1029 - 28/10/2021 07:37:51
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Replying To Whammo86: "Something that annoys me about this hurling comparison is that the whole thing is stupid for hurling too and it came about in a real poor manner.
Their championship whilst bringing in entertaining games at the minute is a bloody mess structurally and is doesn't take much for things to fall apart with it.
You can already see a bit of annoyance creeping in that Leinster is a good bit weaker than Munster.
What happens say if Kerry get promoted to the Leinster championship and Antrim are there also. You've 3 non Leinster teams in that championship at the expense of all the developing Leinster counties.
Their competition is big Munster 5 championship plus An Other championship.
What happens if a Waterford goes the way of Offaly and starts getting beatings every season in Munster but won't get relegated or even be at risk of relegation because the Munster teams don't want that.
The hurling teams let weaker teams get a preliminary quarterfinal game because they were able to work it also to their own self interests. This hurling fraternity rubbish is the biggest load of bull.
Hurling they've had a history of changing the league format left right and centre to try to protect the status of top teams." Your right. My point is that the senior, intermediate, ect structure makes more sense for a tiered championship. Provincials in hurling don't make much sense. All of the Munster teams are on par with or ahead of Wexford/Dublin. The 1A/1B and 2A/2B structure has been mentioned again. I think we should go for that and you can always introduce a third tier if necessary.
I also think the tiered structure isn't really helping the weaker counties develop. It also seems strange when you have Ulster opposing removing the provincial link for football but were happy to scrap the hurling championship which lost interest because Ulster counties themselves don't develop the sport. Same can't be said for Tipp who reached 2 semi-finals in 5 years. Limerick are also improving a lot now. Fraternity doesn't exist in GAA.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 28/10/2021 09:34:41
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Replying To wexico15: "I wouldn't say Div 3 and 4 teams are opposed to provincials, but there opposed to the provincials having a vise grip over the whole structure and been a roadblock to change, if provincials were ran in Feb/Mar/ April and then a league/ championship later in the year like proposal B or some variation if winning your province and even making a provincial final had some sort of guarantee involved place in last 12 or 16 etc. Therefore maintaining a link to Sam McGuire I'd doubt anyone would be up in arms." Not opposed to them but don't want provincials to be a part of the All-Ireland structure. I'm not sure Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, and Galway care. They just don't want a system which allows lower ranked teams in ahead of teams in Div 1. Those 4 counties will flip if that is resolved.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 28/10/2021 09:37:18
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Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: "A lot of people (i.e. everyone) have been giving out about a system that would let the 25th best team in the country into the championship and the 6th best team would be excluded. And I'd agree: maybe have the top 6 teams in Div 1 and the top 2 in Div 2 (not top 3) and you might be getting somewhere. But regarding such a lowly Div 4 team in the championship, consider this. Other sports do something similar. A team from League D of the UEFA Nations League (North Macedonia) qualified for EURO 2020. UEFA explicitly set it up that way, and there was no clamour or rancour about the 40th (41st as it turned out) best team out of 55 in Europe being there (Iceland and Bosnia and Herzegovina (12th and 13th) missed out). In the 2020 Olympic golf events, the lowest ranked player in the field of 60 for the men's event was ranked 356th. The highest ranked non-qualifier other than those who excluded themselves or fell foul of Covid was 13th as far as I can see. For the women's, it was 454th (highest non-qualifier: 16th).
A team coming 6th in Div 1 probably knows they're not at All-Ireland winning level yet, but I'm sure they'd be relieved to avoid relegation; I'd imagine Div 2 would have been a dogfight under Proposal B. But as a Leitrim fan, I'd probably rather my team were 6th in Div 1 than only just getting out of Div 4, even if it meant being out of the championship. And under proposal B, the Div 4 winners would play a team from Div 2 and probably lose, but they'd have had a crack at it. Remember how the Div 4 winners used to go into the quarterfinals of the National Football League? Laois even won it from Division 3 once. Anyway." Proposal isn't getting through until the 6th place is dealt with. Macedonia were brutal in the Euros so not sure that is the best argument.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 28/10/2021 09:53:46
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Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: "A lot of people (i.e. everyone) have been giving out about a system that would let the 25th best team in the country into the championship and the 6th best team would be excluded. And I'd agree: maybe have the top 6 teams in Div 1 and the top 2 in Div 2 (not top 3) and you might be getting somewhere. But regarding such a lowly Div 4 team in the championship, consider this. Other sports do something similar. A team from League D of the UEFA Nations League (North Macedonia) qualified for EURO 2020. UEFA explicitly set it up that way, and there was no clamour or rancour about the 40th (41st as it turned out) best team out of 55 in Europe being there (Iceland and Bosnia and Herzegovina (12th and 13th) missed out). In the 2020 Olympic golf events, the lowest ranked player in the field of 60 for the men's event was ranked 356th. The highest ranked non-qualifier other than those who excluded themselves or fell foul of Covid was 13th as far as I can see. For the women's, it was 454th (highest non-qualifier: 16th).
A team coming 6th in Div 1 probably knows they're not at All-Ireland winning level yet, but I'm sure they'd be relieved to avoid relegation; I'd imagine Div 2 would have been a dogfight under Proposal B. But as a Leitrim fan, I'd probably rather my team were 6th in Div 1 than only just getting out of Div 4, even if it meant being out of the championship. And under proposal B, the Div 4 winners would play a team from Div 2 and probably lose, but they'd have had a crack at it. Remember how the Div 4 winners used to go into the quarterfinals of the National Football League? Laois even won it from Division 3 once. Anyway." Nonsense about teams finishing 6th in Div1, two years ago Mayo were relegated yet got to All Ireland final. All teams in Div 1 would fancy their chances for All Ireland no matter where they finished in league. As I said before, I'm no fan of soccer but in FA cup, top teams enter when lower teams fight it out to a certain stage.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2012 - 28/10/2021 10:37:22
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When you're trying to bring in a huge change, a starting point is not to punish the stronger counties and benefits the weaker ones. A 2 tier championship is needed in which teams begin the championship at their respective levels. The fact that Louth(only promoted from division 4) could play Dublin in next year's Leinster championship is farcical. Remove the provincial and put teams playing at the right level and that would create a much better championship.
PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1653 - 28/10/2021 10:54:52
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Replying To wexico15: "Also if all your looking for is gripes you'll never find a system to keep you happy as I think a perfect system in impossible to find. I taught there was flaws to option B but the pros outweighed the cons." Exactly right. Most people say they agree that the championship needs a complete restructure, most agree we need a tiered group stage and knockout stage but the nothing will ever be agreed (if we need 60% at Congress) if everyone holds out for their perfect system.
If proposal B say had proposed no entry for divisions 3/4 into knock out stage many who voted for it would have been against it so it would not have passed anyway.
Nothing will change unless and we will just keep drifting on with our current mess of a system unless people stop holding out for the perfect proposal.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1347 - 28/10/2021 10:59:28
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Replying To Rolo2010: " Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: "A lot of people (i.e. everyone) have been giving out about a system that would let the 25th best team in the country into the championship and the 6th best team would be excluded. And I'd agree: maybe have the top 6 teams in Div 1 and the top 2 in Div 2 (not top 3) and you might be getting somewhere. But regarding such a lowly Div 4 team in the championship, consider this. Other sports do something similar. A team from League D of the UEFA Nations League (North Macedonia) qualified for EURO 2020. UEFA explicitly set it up that way, and there was no clamour or rancour about the 40th (41st as it turned out) best team out of 55 in Europe being there (Iceland and Bosnia and Herzegovina (12th and 13th) missed out). In the 2020 Olympic golf events, the lowest ranked player in the field of 60 for the men's event was ranked 356th. The highest ranked non-qualifier other than those who excluded themselves or fell foul of Covid was 13th as far as I can see. For the women's, it was 454th (highest non-qualifier: 16th).
A team coming 6th in Div 1 probably knows they're not at All-Ireland winning level yet, but I'm sure they'd be relieved to avoid relegation; I'd imagine Div 2 would have been a dogfight under Proposal B. But as a Leitrim fan, I'd probably rather my team were 6th in Div 1 than only just getting out of Div 4, even if it meant being out of the championship. And under proposal B, the Div 4 winners would play a team from Div 2 and probably lose, but they'd have had a crack at it. Remember how the Div 4 winners used to go into the quarterfinals of the National Football League? Laois even won it from Division 3 once. Anyway." Proposal isn't getting through until the 6th place is dealt with. Macedonia were brutal in the Euros so not sure that is the best argument."
It's part of my point that 4 divisions of 8 isn't really a good starting structure for a group stage championship.
I think a lot would be happy with a 2 divisions of 2 groups of 8 structure.
It's been a format I like too.
I guess you run the provincials in March and April.
4 Provincial champions, 10 best other from the previous season's Tier 1 championship and previous season's Tier 2 finalists could make up the 16 entries.
Provincials maintain their link, every team gets a shot at the All Ireland but there's no leapfrogging of teams from the lower division.
I'd have the provincial group stage tighter than proposal Bs.
Connacht and Munster 2 groups of 3 moving on to semifinals.
Ulster and Leinster have every team play 2 games, 1 home, 1 away. Any team getting 2 or more points goes to the knockout stage with any byes awarded based on performance.
Teams not advancing to their provincial knockout could have a Tommy Murphy cup type competition to get more games in ahead of their real championship. Those sorts of development competitions could mean more before championship and is probably better than London, Antrim, Waterford's playing more provincial mismatches.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 28/10/2021 11:10:24
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Replying To Saynothing: "Was the system broke when Wexford were winning their 5 All Irelands ? Was it broke when they played Tyrone in a semi final? Lots of teams got their act together and others went backwards. My main gripe is the lower teams from Div 1 and 2 not qualifying and 3 and 4 getting in. All Div 1 and 2 should qualify and let 3 and 4 go through preliminary rounds to earn their place. I'm no fan of soccer but lower teams play each other and then finally come into FA cup at latter stages." In fairness comparing the All Ireland structure 100 years ago to today is meaningless, travel was very difficult back then, team preparation was almost non existent, no TV, long working hours.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1347 - 28/10/2021 12:20:35
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Replying To bdbuddah: "Exactly right. Most people say they agree that the championship needs a complete restructure, most agree we need a tiered group stage and knockout stage but the nothing will ever be agreed (if we need 60% at Congress) if everyone holds out for their perfect system.
If proposal B say had proposed no entry for divisions 3/4 into knock out stage many who voted for it would have been against it so it would not have passed anyway.
Nothing will change unless and we will just keep drifting on with our current mess of a system unless people stop holding out for the perfect proposal." If the vote wasn't as close I'd agree with you.
Over 50% saying yes for change shows there's an appetite for it and I'd be very confident that Championship 2024 will be very different to what we've had before.
If you're making such a drastic change in decoupling the Provincials I think you have to make sure you're doing it right.
The love seems to have gone for Leinster people for their championship but I don't think it's gone for everyone.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 28/10/2021 12:22:36
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Replying To PK57: "When you're trying to bring in a huge change, a starting point is not to punish the stronger counties and benefits the weaker ones. A 2 tier championship is needed in which teams begin the championship at their respective levels. The fact that Louth(only promoted from division 4) could play Dublin in next year's Leinster championship is farcical. Remove the provincial and put teams playing at the right level and that would create a much better championship." Maybe we're looking at this wrong, to me we have a tiered competition which is the league which puts teams of equal abilities against eachother.
Then we have the allireland which is a cup competition which means its all in and strong teams and not so strong teams play eachother.
Maybe we just need to make the league more important than the championship, run off the provincials and allireland first straight knockout and then play the league during the summer, have paid holidays for the winners of each division.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 28/10/2021 12:24:09
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