National Forum

Upcoming Special Congress

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Dont see how keeping whats in place now is good or changing to straight knockout.
Counties need games but changing whole structure has to happen. majority of inter county games are played by end of february which is ridiculous
you need to keep provincial competitions as well as an all ireland cup but the main competition for all counties needs to be league based"
2 cup competitions is a really bad idea.

It only guarantees 2 games per team but would take 9 weeks to run off. 4 for Provincials, 5 for All Ireland.

When you can only have 16-18 max games for counties the cup competitions are eating into that too much.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4414 - 09/09/2021 11:38:49    2379016

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I think the GAA needs to decide if they are keeping the provincial championship or not? It is only when this decision is made that you can look at real alternatives. I understand the pros and cons in relation to the provincial championship with the big pro being that it offers teams an opportunity to win a trophy especially if they don't win an All Ireland, however small that opportunity is within certain provinces. On the flipside, the con is that some provinces have more teams, more quality teams like the Ulster championship which has been nearly as hard to win as an all ireland in the last decade or so. There is no one perfect structure regardless of what is proposed or what is trialed. At the same time, it is important that the structure that is devised gives every team something to aim for and something to achieve otherwise the gap between teams will increase and the interest will continue to decline.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 2060 - 09/09/2021 14:19:08    2379074

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "I think the GAA needs to decide if they are keeping the provincial championship or not? It is only when this decision is made that you can look at real alternatives. I understand the pros and cons in relation to the provincial championship with the big pro being that it offers teams an opportunity to win a trophy especially if they don't win an All Ireland, however small that opportunity is within certain provinces. On the flipside, the con is that some provinces have more teams, more quality teams like the Ulster championship which has been nearly as hard to win as an all ireland in the last decade or so. There is no one perfect structure regardless of what is proposed or what is trialed. At the same time, it is important that the structure that is devised gives every team something to aim for and something to achieve otherwise the gap between teams will increase and the interest will continue to decline."
Something that is incredibly difficult to do is to come up with a simple structure that keeps the provincials and also provides teams with more good quality and meaningful championship matches.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4414 - 09/09/2021 18:14:32    2379155

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Sorry no guest teams.

If you're going down that route just get rid of the Provincials altogether."
Just looking for a half way house - the Uls Last 6, would still have 4 Uls, 1 Conn and 1 Lein team. Prov QFs would be back door games, but silverware would need to be attained before the AI SFs, just like the old days (or 2021).
While the Provs would not be pure, they would retain a majority 'home teams' element - this would give them a facelift - like Galway hurlers joining Leinster -although that was permanent, those 8 Rd 2b winners would all be guests, not permanent - could be acceptable as rules apply to everyone - if Dubs lose in Lein, they'd have to go thru Uls or Muns to win Sam.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3099 - 10/09/2021 03:59:02    2379221

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Should the Provs be limited to the top 4 from each, (SFs, Finals only) based on NFL placings ? - then at least you'd have mostly more competitive matches.
4 Champs, join non-Champ NFL top 11 and prior year Tier 2 Champ (Jim McG plan) in AI Rd of 16.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3099 - 10/09/2021 04:10:06    2379222

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Replying To omahant:  "Just looking for a half way house - the Uls Last 6, would still have 4 Uls, 1 Conn and 1 Lein team. Prov QFs would be back door games, but silverware would need to be attained before the AI SFs, just like the old days (or 2021).
While the Provs would not be pure, they would retain a majority 'home teams' element - this would give them a facelift - like Galway hurlers joining Leinster -although that was permanent, those 8 Rd 2b winners would all be guests, not permanent - could be acceptable as rules apply to everyone - if Dubs lose in Lein, they'd have to go thru Uls or Muns to win Sam."
The regular qualifiers are where teams face off when they're knocked out of their province. That works better than muddying up who competes in a provincial championship.

If the GAA don't want to go down the road of group stage formats to the championship I'd just used the simplified seeded All Ireland format I'd suggested to make things fairer.

8 A seeds: 4 Provincial Winners, 4 Best others from League. A seeds get a bye to AI round 3
8 B seeds: Provincial finalists that are not already A seeds. However many are needed for league rankings to get up to 8 B seeds. B seeds get a bye to AI round 2
16 C seeds: Lowest 16 ranked teams that didn't reach their Provincial final compete in AI round 1. This round can be played at the same time as Provincial finals.

You have NFL and Provincials contributing to AI seedings, should make it more fair. Streamlined qualifiers and only 2 rounds needed to merge back into the front door.

NFL and Provincials can be played alongside each other so that league campaigns can run from March to May/Early June and give the league further prestige.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4414 - 10/09/2021 10:19:24    2379261

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The regular qualifiers are where teams face off when they're knocked out of their province. That works better than muddying up who competes in a provincial championship.

If the GAA don't want to go down the road of group stage formats to the championship I'd just used the simplified seeded All Ireland format I'd suggested to make things fairer.

8 A seeds: 4 Provincial Winners, 4 Best others from League. A seeds get a bye to AI round 3
8 B seeds: Provincial finalists that are not already A seeds. However many are needed for league rankings to get up to 8 B seeds. B seeds get a bye to AI round 2
16 C seeds: Lowest 16 ranked teams that didn't reach their Provincial final compete in AI round 1. This round can be played at the same time as Provincial finals.

You have NFL and Provincials contributing to AI seedings, should make it more fair. Streamlined qualifiers and only 2 rounds needed to merge back into the front door.

NFL and Provincials can be played alongside each other so that league campaigns can run from March to May/Early June and give the league further prestige."
Just do what Brolly is proposing if the League and Provs will both link into All-Ireland. Top 11 in League + Tier 2 champions + 4 Provincial champions. All remaing counties go into Tier 2.

I still think Provs need to be their own thing though.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 10/09/2021 11:35:36    2379287

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Just do what Brolly is proposing if the League and Provs will both link into All-Ireland. Top 11 in League + Tier 2 champions + 4 Provincial champions. All remaing counties go into Tier 2.

I still think Provs need to be their own thing though."
I like giving division 3 and 4 teams a second chance at the main one.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4414 - 10/09/2021 13:24:15    2379334

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I like giving division 3 and 4 teams a second chance at the main one."
They can qualify by winning the Prov, getting promoted to Div 2 or winning Tier 2. That's 3 pathways.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 10/09/2021 15:24:57    2379376

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "They can qualify by winning the Prov, getting promoted to Div 2 or winning Tier 2. That's 3 pathways."
Yeah but at the start of the season there's 1 pathway to win their provincial title.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4414 - 10/09/2021 16:10:14    2379392

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Just do what Brolly is proposing if the League and Provs will both link into All-Ireland. Top 11 in League + Tier 2 champions + 4 Provincial champions. All remaing counties go into Tier 2.

I still think Provs need to be their own thing though."
Tier 2 concepts don't seem to work this way. They only work if you have continuity from season to season. i.e. Success at one level and you qualify to play at the next level. Our National League is an example of a Tiered system that works.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1467 - 10/09/2021 16:26:57    2379398

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "They can qualify by winning the Prov, getting promoted to Div 2 or winning Tier 2. That's 3 pathways."
I just don't really understand why a second tier knockout championship is better than the qualifiers to be honest.

Getting through to an All Ireland quarter final or even semi final is much more prestigious than a tier 2 win.

A tier 2 championship which leads to a top tier championship where teams actually play a good program of games makes way more sense to me.

We always talk about how Gaelic football is the only sport that's tiered but it's also weird as a sport where the championship is knockout based rather than league based.

It's not that uncommon for knockout competitions to be wide open, since you only have to add 1 round to double the entries.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4414 - 10/09/2021 18:46:42    2379438

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Replying To Ban:  "Tier 2 concepts don't seem to work this way. They only work if you have continuity from season to season. i.e. Success at one level and you qualify to play at the next level. Our National League is an example of a Tiered system that works."
Sure two teams will always be promoted from Divisions 2, 3 and 4 anyway regardless of how poor the division is but the ping pong nature of it shows it's not actually working at all.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 10/09/2021 19:37:10    2379453

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I just don't really understand why a second tier knockout championship is better than the qualifiers to be honest.

Getting through to an All Ireland quarter final or even semi final is much more prestigious than a tier 2 win.

A tier 2 championship which leads to a top tier championship where teams actually play a good program of games makes way more sense to me.

We always talk about how Gaelic football is the only sport that's tiered but it's also weird as a sport where the championship is knockout based rather than league based.

It's not that uncommon for knockout competitions to be wide open, since you only have to add 1 round to double the entries."
In my opinion, you are correct. Why devise a tier 2 competition that is knock-out based when they could stick with the qualifiers? Also, a knock-out tier 2 competition doesn't offer counties any more games that the current system does except tier 2 teams are playing similar standard teams that they will be playing in the league. Devising a new system that includes the provincial championships is next to impossible. The options are - separate the provincial, the championship and the league but this will take long to play off which impacts the club championship or incorporate the league and the championship into one competition and play the provincial championship as a separate competition in it's own right. I think the super 8s is gone as no one seems to think they are worth it.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 2060 - 10/09/2021 19:50:15    2379456

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Replying To AfricanGael:  "Sure two teams will always be promoted from Divisions 2, 3 and 4 anyway regardless of how poor the division is but the ping pong nature of it shows it's not actually working at all."
How is the league not working?

Also, what problem do you think congress are trying to resolve by reviewing the proposals discussed in this Tread?

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1467 - 10/09/2021 20:14:53    2379463

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Replying To Ban:  "How is the league not working?

Also, what problem do you think congress are trying to resolve by reviewing the proposals discussed in this Tread?"
How often do you see teams moving up through the Divisions and staying several years in Division 1 ?

As I said before it's easy to solve a problem if you are limiting the terms of reference to begin with instead of addressing the real issue of funding.

The only reason the GAA are even looking at a tiered Championship is to save themselves the constant embarrassment of witnessing hammerings, that is not addressing the real issue at all.

People can suggest all the fancy Dan formats they want and call it Champions this or Super that but it still does not address the real issue.

Anyone who thinks that because you are from Wicklow or Leitrim that you cant ever be in a position to compete with the Mayos or Tyrones of this world regardless of funding have clearly never played or coached at a high level and don't know anything about nurturing players from a young age, but it takes time and money and the GAA have failed the majority of counties.

What incentive is there for a good young player from Wicklow to be even bothered by inter county football when he has been already branded "weaker".

The GAA still want to make money out of him though but aren't willing to give anything back.

With the right structures in place there is absolutely no reason why a Wicklow could not compete in the Leinster Championship but this is something that should have been done 15 to 20 years ago and ran from central level not leaving every County Board to run amok when funding is allocated.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 10/09/2021 21:53:17    2379503

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Replying To BilboNaggins:  "I actually quite like the straight knockout stuff we have at the minute and with regards proposal B , asking a leinster or ulster team to compete in another province wont really stand.
I feel that because Dublin have now been beaten , people may be of the opinion that no further change is required, I would disagree with this assumption.
There is a huge imbalance in the game ( but teams have dominated cyclically throughout the decades) but im not convinced whether it should or that it will ever be fixed, the cream always tends to rise to the top, and it with the backdoor route coming in it gave every team the off chance of being able to recover from one bad day in the office to reach the All ireland series essentially protecting the bigger teams.

Since 2000 - 2020 out of 33 (No kilkenny, NYC and LDN included) counties when it comes to All Irelands appearances,
Kerry - 11 Finals (winning 6) 55% of appearances in total finals held
Dublin - 8 Finals, (winning 8) 40%
Mayo - 7 finals 35%
Tyrone - 4 Finals, (winning 3) 20%
Donegal - 2 finals ( winning 1 )10%
Cork - 2 finals (winning 1) 10%
Galway - 2 finals (winning 1) 10%
Armagh - 1 final (winning 1) 5%
Down - 1 final 5%


Knockout football gives greater opportunities to teams with a less traditional winning history to go forth and cause a few upsets, but they more often than not they have won their "all irelands" that day and were beaten by traditionally stronger counties within a game or 2, we seen this last year in Munster with Cork beating Kerry, that was corks all ireland, tipperary won their all ireland against cork and then mayo did the busy and dispatched tipperary in the semi finals.

As far as i can remember we are yet to see a huge underdog consecutively take out any of the big guns and go on to win an all ireland. (Maybe you could put Tyrone of 2003, Derry and Donegal in the 90s into that bracket )

Is their really an appetite for change among the players in less successful counties, i know enough who are happy enough to have their one day in the sun, and if they are young enough tip over to the states for the pay to play route and earn a few bob.

If i could have it my way id have 2 championships, i would have the provincials as they are, winners from provincials are guaranteed a place in the A championship and use the league competitions as a basis for seeding.
Winners of the B championship would also be guaranteed a place in the A championship of the next year

This in my view would allow teams at similar levels to play other teams at similar level and have gradual improvement in place there so that they can avoid getting needlessly humiliated every year. (Maybe what im proposing is proposal A already and ive misunderstood things)

There are many facets including finance, development plans etc,, which i havent even included which are also important for how counties can challenge.
Dominance has always been there in one form or another...

If i look to my own county we have plenty of drinking teams addicted to football who complain about why Corofin were winning as much as they did, sometimes it comes down to having proper plans in place to develop players with the right attitudes."
Meath got to final in 2001.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1412 - 10/09/2021 22:17:33    2379512

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Replying To Ban:  "How is the league not working?

Also, what problem do you think congress are trying to resolve by reviewing the proposals discussed in this Tread?"
Limiting the top tier to 8 counties does affect the development of more counties. Everyone remembers the Noughties as being competitive and it is no coincidence that we had Division 1A and 1B.

That should be restored and keep Divisions 2 and 3 below that.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 10/09/2021 22:59:45    2379518

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "In my opinion, you are correct. Why devise a tier 2 competition that is knock-out based when they could stick with the qualifiers? Also, a knock-out tier 2 competition doesn't offer counties any more games that the current system does except tier 2 teams are playing similar standard teams that they will be playing in the league. Devising a new system that includes the provincial championships is next to impossible. The options are - separate the provincial, the championship and the league but this will take long to play off which impacts the club championship or incorporate the league and the championship into one competition and play the provincial championship as a separate competition in it's own right. I think the super 8s is gone as no one seems to think they are worth it."
Well you could just have League and Championship like the LGFA. Let the provinces run off the competitions if they want and can find the time.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 10/09/2021 23:02:07    2379519

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "What are your thoughts on the Special Congress due to take place on 18th September. Championship reform is the big thing.

Proposal A is the provincial groups with each province having 8 counties. This involves moving counties out of Ulster and Leinster.

Proposal B is the League based championship. Top 5 in Div 1, top 3 in Div 2, and Div 3/4 champions qualify for All-Ireland series. Rumors are that this has been changed though. Possibly top 6 in Div 1 and only top 2 in Division 2.

Tier 2 will also be created in both proposals.

Proposal C is keep current system (with qualifiers) and Super 8s. Horan's Tailteann Cup will also start for Div 3 and 4 counties.

Latest rumours on the ground are that no change is the most likely outcome."
Whatever we end up with it should be a balanced competition where we try to at least make the route to potential success be similar for the competing teams. Having drastically different no. of teams in each provincial championship which then feeds into the the overall competition is not logical.
This means the route to success is completely different for different counties.
Whatever structures the GAA come up with should be simple and balanced.
Proposal A would result in a balanced/ logical competition structure (although deciding what teams leave. Leinster/ Ulster would be tough, for example I would hate to see a team like Offaly, with their previous history of success in Leinster be moved to Connaught because of their location).
I think Proposal B looses out a bit for me in that I don't really get why you would play a league competition to qualify for another separate league type system.
Maybe the simplest solution would be to have each team play in 2 separate and non linked competitions, play in your own provincial championship (prospect of winning a provincial championship is still a huge for many counties, more so than winning a division in the current league) and have the All Ireland structure similar to the current league structure (personally I would like the All Ireland structured similarly to when the league was 2 divisions sub divided into div. 1A & 1B and div. 2A & 2B, this way teams outside of the top division would have the incentive of knowing they were 1 promotion away from competing for Sam the following year).

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1412 - 10/09/2021 23:23:07    2379524

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