National Forum

Upcoming Special Congress

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Replying To brianb:  "The only team the Leinster Championship hasn't mattered for is Dublin. It didn't matter to them because they were streets ahead of the rest of the teams in Leinster since about 2012/13 and the rest of the country for a good part of that too. It would be like saying the Ulster Championship doesn't matter to Down or Derry because they haven't won it for a while.

Under the backdoor system both Offaly and Louth could have gone on a good run through the qualifiers. Under Proposal B their season would have been over as runners up in Div 3 & 4 respectively."
But have you listened one bit to what players are looking for. They dont care about the chance of having good run through the qualifiers anymore. They want to be guaranteed a proper season where they can compete at an appropriate level, learn and development themselves as teams and individuals.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1467 - 18/10/2021 15:37:18    2386102

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Replying To brianb:  "The only team the Leinster Championship hasn't mattered for is Dublin. It didn't matter to them because they were streets ahead of the rest of the teams in Leinster since about 2012/13 and the rest of the country for a good part of that too. It would be like saying the Ulster Championship doesn't matter to Down or Derry because they haven't won it for a while.

Under the backdoor system both Offaly and Louth could have gone on a good run through the qualifiers. Under Proposal B their season would have been over as runners up in Div 3 & 4 respectively."
The old backdoor system is bad for Leinster football but it could have been tweaked also to help things. A few small changes around where teams entered from each province would make it a lot more fair.

I also kind of wonder were a lot of problems to do with the calendar rather than the actual competition structures.

If the league gets played in parallel with the provincial championships and right up to the end of May I kind of think that would improve things hugely?

If both the league and the championship were used to seed the All Ireland that would improve things a lot also.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 18/10/2021 15:41:59    2386103

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Yes, they could better align the Qualifier entry point -
1st Rd losers in all Provs (8 teams) enter Qual Rd 1;
2nd Rd losers in all Provs (12 teams) enter Q Rd 2;
3rd Prov Rd losers (6 teams) to Qual Rd 3; and
4th Prov Rd losers (3 teams = Uls/Lein Finalists & either Muns or Conn Champ Playoff loser) to Q Rd 4.
3 unbeaten Prov Champs & 5 Qual Rd 4 winners to AI KO QFs.

For a better Proposal B, I'd stack the 4-div seeding in favour of higher divs - say, instead of 5-3-1-1 - make it 5-5-4-2 (seeded in rank order).
If the higher seeded team always wins as expected, 1st in Div 1 would badly beat 2nd in Div 4 and then beat 3 Rd in Div 2 (QF) in the first 2 KO Rds.
Team 6 still loses out - but worth striving to be Team 5 to play 18, while Team 9 plays 10.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3113 - 18/10/2021 16:43:30    2386115

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Replying To Ban:  "But have you listened one bit to what players are looking for. They dont care about the chance of having good run through the qualifiers anymore. They want to be guaranteed a proper season where they can compete at an appropriate level, learn and development themselves as teams and individuals."
Under Option B I'm not sure Division Three and Four teams will develop.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6174 - 18/10/2021 16:46:44    2386116

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Correction - that last line should read -

Team 6 still loses out - but worth striving to be Team 5 to play 18 (2nd in Div 3), while Team 11 (3rd in Div 2) plays 12 (4th in Div 2).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3113 - 18/10/2021 16:54:22    2386119

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Under Option B I'm not sure Division Three and Four teams will develop."
Please share why?

I believe that playing more of anything will give you a better chance of development. Proposal B gives all teams more games.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1467 - 18/10/2021 16:56:46    2386120

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Under Option B I'm not sure Division Three and Four teams will develop."
Still 2 up/ 2 down - maybe slow progress.
Fast progress looks like - creating new regional boundaries with comparable population or playing quality within each.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3113 - 18/10/2021 16:57:47    2386122

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Replying To Ban:  "But have you listened one bit to what players are looking for. They dont care about the chance of having good run through the qualifiers anymore. They want to be guaranteed a proper season where they can compete at an appropriate level, learn and development themselves as teams and individuals."
Brianb is right, lower teams play in lower leagues for a reason and it against teams of their appropriate level. Quess what, if you win that league you go up a Division, that's how it works. Proposal B holds back lower Divisions 1 and 2 teams for the sake of top teams in Division 3and 4.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2259 - 18/10/2021 17:00:28    2386125

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Replying To Ban:  "Please share why?

I believe that playing more of anything will give you a better chance of development. Proposal B gives all teams more games."
Something that annoys me about proposal B is that the games that are being added are in Provincial championships.

If the Leinster championship is so broken why are we going from 10 fixtures to 28 fixtures is this dead competition.

Does anyone want 16 Connacht or Munster championship games?

Are these actually the games that should be added?

If they just become games that are as intense as the existing preseason provincial competitions then teams are playing fewer meaningful games.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 18/10/2021 17:31:42    2386132

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Brianb is right, lower teams play in lower leagues for a reason and it against teams of their appropriate level. Quess what, if you win that league you go up a Division, that's how it works. Proposal B holds back lower Divisions 1 and 2 teams for the sake of top teams in Division 3and 4."
Option B replaces one form of unfairness with another form of unfairness. .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6174 - 18/10/2021 17:42:57    2386134

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Under Option B I'm not sure Division Three and Four teams will develop."
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Indeed, Gg.
Teams have been in lower divisions for a century plus playing their peers and haven't improved - so the argument they will improve doesn't stand up. Under Prop B that existing and recently widened gap is simply recognised and made permanent and they are thrown out of the new smaller champo. Bar the two divisional winners who have the chance to be on the receiving end of a hammering at the start of the champo in either in the prelim game or the qtrs.

Nor do they have more games - they simply play provincial in Spring and league in Summer.
They have the Tailteann under Prop B or the New Status quo

Now if the RTE managers story is to be believed then the Div 3 / 4 teams have recognised that nothing is going to be done about the recent widening of the gap and are saying - fine we're junior counties but at least we get to play our league matches in good weather.
Fat chance some summers but that can't be resolved by any Congress.

Finally it appears that the delegates of all 32 counties could vote for Prop B and it could still be defeated i.e. not get 50% never mind 60%. So there's that!

timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 18/10/2021 17:46:01    2386135

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.

Actually I'm probably wrong on the precise number of games. Due to the round robin nature of the Spring provincials - which would lead to more hammerings as somebody pointed out a few pages back - some teams night have more games. However they are losing the McKenna/FBD etc games and back door games so much of a muchness.
And aren't we supposed to taking out the hammerings - isn't that part of the appeal of Prop B- not having them on wetter pitches & increasing the number.

timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 18/10/2021 18:43:37    2386144

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Replying To Ban:  "But have you listened one bit to what players are looking for. They dont care about the chance of having good run through the qualifiers anymore. They want to be guaranteed a proper season where they can compete at an appropriate level, learn and development themselves as teams and individuals."
But have you listened one bit to what players are looking for? Yes and I think I understand what they're looking for. More games in the summer and a better idea of the fixtures. In fairness that's what everyone wants. Proposal B does offer that but we could do so much better.

Lets take the following hypothetical example - Meath V Westmeath championship 2022

a) Meath beat Dublin in the Leinster semi-final to set up final against Westmeath. Westmeath win this and end up in the All Ireland 1/4 final against Dublin who arrive through the back door. You'll have played 3 inconsequential O'Byrne cup games; 7 league games and 3 Leinster games to get here - 13 games in total.

b) Meath finish 2nd in Division 2 and play Westmeath who finish top of Division 3. Westmeath win this and end up in the All Ireland 1/4 final against Dublin who finished 2nd in Division 1. You'll have played 4 inconsequential provincial games; 7 league games and 1 play off to get here - 12 games in total.

Put yourself in the players boots - which scenario would you prefer?

My main issue with Proposal B is that is completely demotes the provincial cups as a completion of note and that it doesn't offer a fair and properly tiered championship. I'd prefer a solution that does both of these things.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 406 - 18/10/2021 19:00:30    2386148

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3 questions.

1. No matter what county you are from , do all clubs in your county play in the same tier/division? Why not?
2. If Provincial Championships are worthwhile competitions, why will decoupling them from the All Ireland matter?
3. What's wrong with a Division 4 team making the knockouts at the expense of a Division 1 team? Haven't UEFA embraced the same principl using the Nations League to give teams like North Macedonia a chance to qualify?

Rebel2020 (Cork) - Posts: 92 - 18/10/2021 20:01:32    2386158

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Replying To Rebel2020:  "3 questions.

1. No matter what county you are from , do all clubs in your county play in the same tier/division? Why not?
2. If Provincial Championships are worthwhile competitions, why will decoupling them from the All Ireland matter?
3. What's wrong with a Division 4 team making the knockouts at the expense of a Division 1 team? Haven't UEFA embraced the same principl using the Nations League to give teams like North Macedonia a chance to qualify?"
1) Every county is tiered; I don't see anyone on here arguing against a properly tiered championship.
2) The prize matters. Teams will still celebrate winning them and they will be still worthwhile but they will be very much diminished. There is a serious risk that they would become defunct over time (like the railway cup).
3) UEFA gave North Macedonia a chance to qualify into a 24 team tournament where 1/2 the teams qualify. Proposal B wants to give the same chance where 30% of the teams qualify. That's a big difference. North Macedonia and Scotland qualified ahead of Iceland and Bosnia; Proposal B would be equivalent to give the same opportunity to qualify ahead of Belgium, Croatia or even Italy in some years.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 406 - 19/10/2021 10:07:08    2386189

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Something that annoys me about proposal B is that the games that are being added are in Provincial championships.

If the Leinster championship is so broken why are we going from 10 fixtures to 28 fixtures is this dead competition.

Does anyone want 16 Connacht or Munster championship games?

Are these actually the games that should be added?

If they just become games that are as intense as the existing preseason provincial competitions then teams are playing fewer meaningful games."
It's a form of compromise. As is allowing the Division 4 team into Preliminary Q FINAL.

If everyone on this HS group came together and came up with ONE proposal, what would it look like? Many think the provincial system is broken, many think it is prestigious....it would be very difficult and nobody would get what they fully want..

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 19/10/2021 10:11:01    2386190

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Replying To bennybunny:  "It's a form of compromise. As is allowing the Division 4 team into Preliminary Q FINAL.

If everyone on this HS group came together and came up with ONE proposal, what would it look like? Many think the provincial system is broken, many think it is prestigious....it would be very difficult and nobody would get what they fully want.."
You're probably right there - very hard to reach a consensus where everyone is happy. Lets for a second consider how you'd do it?

You'd ask everyone what they want to see. Ask direct questions - like should the provincial champions be allowed into the All Ireland knock out rounds. Should we have 2 tiers? Should we have 3 tiers? Should the tier 2 champion be given a spot in the All Ireland knock out rounds? Should the tier 2 final be played on All Ireland day? Should every team have a shot at Sam? Then take that information and design something that creates meaningful games for every team at every level. You'd probably come up with 3/4 ideas that hit on the majority of the points. You'd scrutinise them for pros and cons and finally vote with as much information as possible available.

Instead we're heading in the direction of the fixtures review committee; it seems their approach was; have a few meetings; stick a finger in the air come up with a crazy proposal (A) and a reasonable proposal (B) that does some good and some bad. Focus only on the pros - forget about the cons and finally hide as much information as possible. Leave no stone turned over - except the rock you hide under while the debate rages around.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 406 - 19/10/2021 11:02:38    2386210

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Replying To brianb:  "You're probably right there - very hard to reach a consensus where everyone is happy. Lets for a second consider how you'd do it?

You'd ask everyone what they want to see. Ask direct questions - like should the provincial champions be allowed into the All Ireland knock out rounds. Should we have 2 tiers? Should we have 3 tiers? Should the tier 2 champion be given a spot in the All Ireland knock out rounds? Should the tier 2 final be played on All Ireland day? Should every team have a shot at Sam? Then take that information and design something that creates meaningful games for every team at every level. You'd probably come up with 3/4 ideas that hit on the majority of the points. You'd scrutinise them for pros and cons and finally vote with as much information as possible available.

Instead we're heading in the direction of the fixtures review committee; it seems their approach was; have a few meetings; stick a finger in the air come up with a crazy proposal (A) and a reasonable proposal (B) that does some good and some bad. Focus only on the pros - forget about the cons and finally hide as much information as possible. Leave no stone turned over - except the rock you hide under while the debate rages around."
Very simple tweak to Proposal B
Top 4 D1 straight to Qtr Finals, teams 5 and 6 in D1, teams 1 to 4 D2 and the D3 and D4 winners play a prelim round.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2116 - 19/10/2021 11:18:52    2386219

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Replying To brianb:  "You're probably right there - very hard to reach a consensus where everyone is happy. Lets for a second consider how you'd do it?

You'd ask everyone what they want to see. Ask direct questions - like should the provincial champions be allowed into the All Ireland knock out rounds. Should we have 2 tiers? Should we have 3 tiers? Should the tier 2 champion be given a spot in the All Ireland knock out rounds? Should the tier 2 final be played on All Ireland day? Should every team have a shot at Sam? Then take that information and design something that creates meaningful games for every team at every level. You'd probably come up with 3/4 ideas that hit on the majority of the points. You'd scrutinise them for pros and cons and finally vote with as much information as possible available.

Instead we're heading in the direction of the fixtures review committee; it seems their approach was; have a few meetings; stick a finger in the air come up with a crazy proposal (A) and a reasonable proposal (B) that does some good and some bad. Focus only on the pros - forget about the cons and finally hide as much information as possible. Leave no stone turned over - except the rock you hide under while the debate rages around."
Maybe that is what did. Kevin O'Donovan outlined how the process worked in an interview on OTB. He has a different view though.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 19/10/2021 11:19:10    2386220

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Option B replaces one form of unfairness with another form of unfairness. ."
The only unfairness in All Ireland Championship are the two provinces with 8 or less teams. Nothing unfair in Leinster when Dublin were winning all those All Irelands, they played over their quota in matches. Same as Ulster, comes down to how many games you play to get to the same gold. Straight all in knockout and hope for the luck of the draw like all competitions from club senior to under 8s.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2259 - 19/10/2021 11:19:14    2386221

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