National Forum

Upcoming Special Congress

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Replying To whoareya:  "Unbelievable that despite that the vast majority of players and managers seem to favour Option B, many boards and delegates are obviously trying to screw them over. Option B isn't perfect, I think they should be 12 teams going through with a full play off round to meet the top four in the 1/4s. A pity there isn't an opportunity at Congress to make minor amendments. Also if it goes through would it be a good idea top open up broadcasting rights so more games could be shown. TG4, virgin etc. Also they should allow say Division 1 & 4 games on a Saturday, and 2 & 3 on a Sunday, vice versa from then on just to ensure there's some exposure."
Its quite incredible, looks like the status quo is going to be maintained and voted for.

It may be time, to look at the structures in regard to the administration of the game, its become to politicised, self serving and back scracthery.

I dont see what wrong with a vote of the core membership in a referendum type event - think it would even promote membership.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4494 - 15/10/2021 13:52:46    2385753

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Its quite incredible, looks like the status quo is going to be maintained and voted for.

It may be time, to look at the structures in regard to the administration of the game, its become to politicised, self serving and back scracthery.

I dont see what wrong with a vote of the core membership in a referendum type event - think it would even promote membership."
Core membership? Could you define that please username. If there is to be a "referendum" on this then surely every paid up member who is 18 and over should be allowed to vote. I wouldn't agree with you that "it's quite incredible that the status quo is going to be maintained and voted for." I am in favour of change but I would vote in favour of the "status quo" as opposed to Option B, Option B is very badly flawed. It replaces unfairness with yet more unfairness. Are the leagues going to be played as a stand alone competition or are they going to be subsumed in to this new championship structure? What are the details of the Tailteann Cup? Are we being asked to accept a new championship structure the details of which haven't even been finalised? There are plenty of people with misgivings about Option B. They are not members of the hierarchy.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6174 - 15/10/2021 14:12:47    2385755

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Core membership? Could you define that please username. If there is to be a "referendum" on this then surely every paid up member who is 18 and over should be allowed to vote. I wouldn't agree with you that "it's quite incredible that the status quo is going to be maintained and voted for." I am in favour of change but I would vote in favour of the "status quo" as opposed to Option B, Option B is very badly flawed. It replaces unfairness with yet more unfairness. Are the leagues going to be played as a stand alone competition or are they going to be subsumed in to this new championship structure? What are the details of the Tailteann Cup? Are we being asked to accept a new championship structure the details of which haven't even been finalised? There are plenty of people with misgivings about Option B. They are not members of the hierarchy."
If status quo is maintained do you know the details of the tailteann cup is integrated there? Simply put for GAA heirachy to ignore the wishes of its most important stakeholder the players is nothing short of a disgrace, self serving and preservation blockading the chance to rid of a dated,stale and tired championship structure.

bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 15/10/2021 14:31:27    2385756

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Replying To whoareya:  "Unbelievable that despite that the vast majority of players and managers seem to favour Option B, many boards and delegates are obviously trying to screw them over. Option B isn't perfect, I think they should be 12 teams going through with a full play off round to meet the top four in the 1/4s. A pity there isn't an opportunity at Congress to make minor amendments. Also if it goes through would it be a good idea top open up broadcasting rights so more games could be shown. TG4, virgin etc. Also they should allow say Division 1 & 4 games on a Saturday, and 2 & 3 on a Sunday, vice versa from then on just to ensure there's some exposure."
Good points and option B is far from perfect. However in reality would Provincial councils survive if option B is brought in and their flagship money making competitions became glorified pre season competitions? It's difficult to see how they could survive in their current form without the income they receive now. When we consider that reality it is not surprising some delegates or boards are reluctant to back option B, they might be sensitive to the players wishes but in many ways they could be voting for the end or at the very least a watered down version of their councils.

Munster and Leinster councils might be ok as their hurling competitions bring in a lot of their income but the other two would struggle without a hurling championship to fall back on.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 15/10/2021 15:15:11    2385763

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Replying To Whammo86:  "
Replying To edu:  "Enhanced Proposal B.
I would be in favour of Proposal B but part of it is flawed.The 10 teams qualifying for the k.o phase after the divisional phase are the teams ranked 1st 2nd 3nd 4th 5th [top 5 Div.1
9th 10th 11th[top 3 Div.2
17th [winner Div.3 and 25th[winner Div.4].So infact Div. 4 winners[rank 25th] qualify ahead of 15 teams that are above them in the rankings.
The following is a more equitable and fairer formula while still adhering to the 4x 8 divisions- 2 divisions of 16,
Division 1 National Football Championship [ N.F.C] Div. 1 cup for group winner with best record]
2 x 8 N.F.C 1A + N.F.C 1B
Division 2 National Football Championship [N.F.C]
2 x 8 N.F.C 2 North + N.F.C 2 South [Cup for each winner]
12 teams qualify for All Ireland series instead of 10 in original proposal.
4 teams directly to quarter finals- top 2 in each Div. 1 groups
Play off round [8 teams]
3nd 4th 5th from each Div.1 group + Div. 2 North winner + Div. 2 south winner.
3nd in each Div. 1 group play the two division champions. draw for pairings. Games in Croke Park.
4th 1A home v 5th 1B and 4th 1B home v 5th 1A.
Quarter finals and semi finals
Highest placed teams play lowest teams from other group/Div,2 where feasible.
Relegation from Div.1 [3 down]
Bottom placed team in Div. 1A + bottom placed team in Div. 1B.
Loser relegation play off between 7th placed teams in Div.1A +Div.1B.
Promotion from Div. 2 [3 up]
Winner Div.2 North + winner Div. 2 South + Tailteann Cup winner
Tailteann Cup.
Not all Div. 2 teams qualify directly for Tailteann Cup.
Only teams finishing 2nd 3nd 4th and 5th in Div.2 North and Div. 2 South qualify for quarter finals.
2nd and 3nd placed teams play home v 4th and 5th teams from other division.
N.F.C Div.1 draw [seeded[ [using 2021 final league placings as example]
4 pots of 4 teams. Pot 1,2,3,4.
2 teams from each pot going into Div. 1A and 2 teams going into Dv. 1B.
Pot 1- Donegal Tyrone Kerry Dublin Pot 2-Armagh Monaghan Galway Roscommon
Pot 3-Mayo Meath Kildare Clare Pot 4 Down Cork Derry Offaly
New draw to be made every second year. In the 2nd year of the cycle the fixtures are reversed.
ie the home fixture becomes an away fixture and vice versa with the promoted teams taking the place of the
relegated teams in the 2nd year of the 2 year cycle.
N.F,C Div. 2 [Again using 2021 final league placings as example]
North South
Fermanagh Laois
Cavan Limerick
Longford Tipperary
Weastmeath Wicklow
Antrim Carlow
Louth Waterford
Sligo Wexford
Leitrim London
Having North and South divisions will obviously boost attendances with lots of local derbies.
With the top 5 teams in each division qualifying for k.o games [winners to All Ireland and 2nd to 5th to
Tailteann Cup] most teams should have something to play for right up to latter rounds.In the original
proposal in Div, 4 there would be lots of dead rubber games with some teams out of the reckoning after 3 or 4
games and no relegation to battle against.
That is the enhanced Proposal B."]That's not bad."]Similar to one of my ideas - 2 Divs x (2 Groups x 8) - Top 5 of each 8 advancing (20 total) - 12 highest ranked of those 20 to Tier 1 Playoffs, Other 8 to Tier 2 (with 1 or 2 going up with 2 group winners).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3109 - 15/10/2021 15:40:43    2385767

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Replying To wexico15:  "If status quo is maintained do you know the details of the tailteann cup is integrated there? Simply put for GAA heirachy to ignore the wishes of its most important stakeholder the players is nothing short of a disgrace, self serving and preservation blockading the chance to rid of a dated,stale and tired championship structure."
The players are a very important part of the association but the games belong to everyone. No single group should be preeminent. The seventy year old person who has invested a lifetime in the association as a player and a volunteer has a viewpoint too and that viewpoint deserves to be given very careful consideration. The arrangements in place the Tailteann Cup in 2020 were that it would be played over three successive weekends in late June on a straight knockout basis. Those games would have determined the finalists. The final was to be played two weeks after the semi final in mid July. I don't know where the final was scheduled to be played. There are plenty of people who are opposed to Option B. They have good reasons to be opposed to it and they are sincere in their opposition. People who are opposed to Option B do not deserve to be portrayed as you portray them. Can you answer a genuine question please. Are the leagues to be played as a stand alone competition or are they going to be subsumed in to this new championship structure? I don't believe that Option B will be rejected. I think that counties in Leinster and Munster will provide sufficient delegates to pass it. Ulster will oppose it and I understandably so. It is a measure of how catastrophic the GAA's preferential treatment of Dublin has been for football in Leinster when you consider that a county with Offaly's tradition now considers Option B to be preferable to the status quo. The Leinster championship was a great competition. It is now dead. Change is needed but Option B is not it most especially if the leagues as a stand alone competition are to be abandoned too.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6174 - 15/10/2021 16:36:34    2385773

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Its quite incredible, looks like the status quo is going to be maintained and voted for.

It may be time, to look at the structures in regard to the administration of the game, its become to politicised, self serving and back scracthery.

I dont see what wrong with a vote of the core membership in a referendum type event - think it would even promote membership."
It is quite incredible alright - there is a need for change; yet the change options brought forward are somewhat ill considered and have some illogical aspects.

Its a result of not asking what the change needs to fix before coming up with a proposal.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 405 - 15/10/2021 16:46:33    2385775

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Replying To timmyhogan:  ".

But brianb, not to be contentious for the sake of it ,you cant have a route in for the provincial champs or else summer NFL1 loses all drama as everyone (bar Kildare perhaps) probably makes it to the KO phase. The 4 provincial champs are already in Div1 - well certainly 3 are, you could see Galway or Ros winning Connacht perhaps.
And that takes much/all of the competition/risk element out of the summer League which presumably was its main selling point.

Actually what is the problem that the new proposals are supposed to solve.
I'm not claiming there aren't issues with the current setup (obviously)but as I asked before how are these solved in either new setup.
Prop B or indeed the Cromwell plan, as the Ulster boy termed it, could both be interesting/fun if ran for a season but the underlying Q remains."
It won't solve the gap between the top 4 and 5 teams and the rest, matter of fact it will make the gap bigger with such a format in place.

GAA HQ was right to speak out on the false claims that proposal B would bring extra €10M. The GPA let's not forget have sent letter to Congress with that €10m figure included in a effort to influence the vote and today they are delighted that proposal B would mean less money, yeah right who are they kidding?

Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 3544 - 15/10/2021 16:58:49    2385776

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I just don't think it's a big stress that this hasn't gone through this season.

There's a few ideas on this thread maybe some of them send to our club AGMs and see do they get a bit of traction next year. Proposal B is just so flawed it's not worth crying over.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 15/10/2021 17:42:59    2385780

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Something funny about proposal B is that it's possible (unlikely but possible) to finish 6th in division 1 with 9 points and 3rd in division 2 with just 5 points.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 15/10/2021 18:17:46    2385782

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Replying To wexico15:  "By why persist with a system proven to be flawed and frankly is tired and boring at this stage for 1 that might have flaws but ensures 7 championship games for all 32 participating teams.

GAA statement last night shows their against option B so its probably not a runner, given 80% of GPA members who replied to the survey are in favour of option B i think those in power should be ashamed of themselves for letting down their most important stakeholder, their players."
Those figures are Inflated by the GPA also. Only 288 out of 1200 GPA members replied to that survey.

Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 3544 - 15/10/2021 18:22:15    2385783

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Replying To sam1884:  "Good points and option B is far from perfect. However in reality would Provincial councils survive if option B is brought in and their flagship money making competitions became glorified pre season competitions? It's difficult to see how they could survive in their current form without the income they receive now. When we consider that reality it is not surprising some delegates or boards are reluctant to back option B, they might be sensitive to the players wishes but in many ways they could be voting for the end or at the very least a watered down version of their councils.

Munster and Leinster councils might be ok as their hurling competitions bring in a lot of their income but the other two would struggle without a hurling championship to fall back on."
Provincials won't survive and the League format in Proposal B isn't making it through because the Division 1/2 county boards are rightly saying that Division 3/4 sides shouldn't be getting into Sam ahead of them. I think the Hurling model (provincial groups) only works if it were reduced down to 2 in football as well. Connacht/Ulster and Leinster/Munster.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 15/10/2021 19:07:07    2385785

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Replying To timmyhogan:  "
Replying To timmyhogan:  ".

But brianb, not to be contentious for the sake of it ,you cant have a route in for the provincial champs or else summer NFL1 loses all drama as everyone (bar Kildare perhaps) probably makes it to the KO phase. The 4 provincial champs are already in Div1 - well certainly 3 are, you could see Galway or Ros winning Connacht perhaps.
And that takes much/all of the competition/risk element out of the summer League which presumably was its main selling point.

Actually what is the problem that the new proposals are supposed to solve.
I'm not claiming there aren't issues with the current setup (obviously)but as I asked before how are these solved in either new setup.
Prop B or indeed the Cromwell plan, as the Ulster boy termed it, could both be interesting/fun if ran for a season but the underlying Q remains."
.

Basically it seems we just get more competitive games (NFL1) for the elite teams. This is fine in itself if that's what we are after. And more IC games in good weather and more money perhaps .

But if we drill down what do we get ? Let's say for arguments sake that in 22 Kerry, Dublin and Mayo (I know, I know) are gonna make top 5 in NFL1 and Kildare wont. So we have a summer league to see which 2 of Donegal, Tyrone, Monaghan & Armagh don't make the KO phase of the champo.

That sounds interesting in itself. But we already have an Ulster champo to sort this out & its a cracker. Plus the losing teams get a backdoor shot - more good games.
So we are throwing away a 33 county KO Sam & the provincials for this tweak.

Somewhat underwhelming when looked at in this light.
If it wasn't for the anomalies /potential controversy it would have very little to recommend it."
Yes but it would make Kerry and Dublin work to get in the top 5. Instead of cruising through Leinster or Munster, away games in Omagh, Newbridge, Tuam etc would have to be negotiated. Don't forget Kerry failed to qualify from a super 8s group of Monaghan Galway and Kildare . You couldn't relax in Division 1 and it would make it very exciting.

Rebel2020 (Cork) - Posts: 92 - 15/10/2021 19:37:18    2385786

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Replying To sam1884:  "Good points and option B is far from perfect. However in reality would Provincial councils survive if option B is brought in and their flagship money making competitions became glorified pre season competitions? It's difficult to see how they could survive in their current form without the income they receive now. When we consider that reality it is not surprising some delegates or boards are reluctant to back option B, they might be sensitive to the players wishes but in many ways they could be voting for the end or at the very least a watered down version of their councils.

Munster and Leinster councils might be ok as their hurling competitions bring in a lot of their income but the other two would struggle without a hurling championship to fall back on."
I agree that the B proposal is far from perfect but it has to be better than the present setup where most of the early rounds of the championship generate very little interest and where we have many total mismatches. The finances of the provincial councils shouldn't be an issue. It is very likely that the league championship format will generate at least the same amount of revenue overall and this can then be distributed to the provinces to bring their income up to the levels enjoyed under the existing setup. It seems that many of the provincial officers are against change. A bigger reason than finance for this stance is possibly that they perceive it as a diminution of their roles and offices. What is best for the health and growth of our sport should be the determining factor for change.

Eastcoastexile (Kerry) - Posts: 3 - 15/10/2021 21:38:25    2385790

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People are missing a big point and that is that HQ do not care about anybody except the top tier teams and counties, do not fool yourself, if Qatar started pumping millions into Leitrim to make them a power house of GAA and HQ could get their cut then rules would be changed to help them.
While the traditional counties have been always been successful over the generations it was only from the 90's on that the top counties started to pull away and now we have massively one sided matches in football in particular.

But with all that being said go back and look at the at Wicklow , Antrim, Clare etc. and they rarely where on the end of a pasting

What we need to do is actually reduce the pressure on each county to produce a team back then you really only needed to have a good 15/16 players but now you need a good 20/21 players

reduce the game to 60, this would reduce the pressure on the players for fitness, increase player welfare and not affect the quality of the game
Reduce the number of subs, this would level the playing field that currently benefits the top teams and counties with bigger playing populations
Properly pool the money that all counties generate from the intercounty scene and disperse it fairly, bigger counties like Dublin will still get the biggest share which is right because they have the biggest playing population etc. but counties like Leitrim should not be left behind, we are supposed to be an amateur organisation after all.

I have said this before create a round robin provincial championship with the champions going on to the All-Ireland Semi as it once was, the backdoor was brought in to get you more than one game this would do this

ulsterrules (Donegal) - Posts: 259 - 16/10/2021 09:48:08    2385795

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Replying To ulsterrules:  "People are missing a big point and that is that HQ do not care about anybody except the top tier teams and counties, do not fool yourself, if Qatar started pumping millions into Leitrim to make them a power house of GAA and HQ could get their cut then rules would be changed to help them.
While the traditional counties have been always been successful over the generations it was only from the 90's on that the top counties started to pull away and now we have massively one sided matches in football in particular.

But with all that being said go back and look at the at Wicklow , Antrim, Clare etc. and they rarely where on the end of a pasting

What we need to do is actually reduce the pressure on each county to produce a team back then you really only needed to have a good 15/16 players but now you need a good 20/21 players

reduce the game to 60, this would reduce the pressure on the players for fitness, increase player welfare and not affect the quality of the game
Reduce the number of subs, this would level the playing field that currently benefits the top teams and counties with bigger playing populations
Properly pool the money that all counties generate from the intercounty scene and disperse it fairly, bigger counties like Dublin will still get the biggest share which is right because they have the biggest playing population etc. but counties like Leitrim should not be left behind, we are supposed to be an amateur organisation after all.

I have said this before create a round robin provincial championship with the champions going on to the All-Ireland Semi as it once was, the backdoor was brought in to get you more than one game this would do this"
And bring back 21 aside and point posts while you're at it!!!
I'm sure Leitrim would love 3 hammerings every year in a Provincial round Robin instead of only 1 as at present.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2113 - 16/10/2021 10:27:44    2385796

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Replying To Gaa_lover:  "Those figures are Inflated by the GPA also. Only 288 out of 1200 GPA members replied to that survey."
Where did you get that information out of curiosity? Remember the GPA survey only applies to intercounty Gaelic footballers so there members who are hurlers, camogie players and ladies footballers weren't surveyed.

bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 16/10/2021 10:32:19    2385799

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Replying To Greengrass:  "The players are a very important part of the association but the games belong to everyone. No single group should be preeminent. The seventy year old person who has invested a lifetime in the association as a player and a volunteer has a viewpoint too and that viewpoint deserves to be given very careful consideration. The arrangements in place the Tailteann Cup in 2020 were that it would be played over three successive weekends in late June on a straight knockout basis. Those games would have determined the finalists. The final was to be played two weeks after the semi final in mid July. I don't know where the final was scheduled to be played. There are plenty of people who are opposed to Option B. They have good reasons to be opposed to it and they are sincere in their opposition. People who are opposed to Option B do not deserve to be portrayed as you portray them. Can you answer a genuine question please. Are the leagues to be played as a stand alone competition or are they going to be subsumed in to this new championship structure? I don't believe that Option B will be rejected. I think that counties in Leinster and Munster will provide sufficient delegates to pass it. Ulster will oppose it and I understandably so. It is a measure of how catastrophic the GAA's preferential treatment of Dublin has been for football in Leinster when you consider that a county with Offaly's tradition now considers Option B to be preferable to the status quo. The Leinster championship was a great competition. It is now dead. Change is needed but Option B is not it most especially if the leagues as a stand alone competition are to be abandoned too."
Yes the League and championship now merge into 1 and that's no harm and I'll explain why. To me here is a typical summary of an intercounty year in the last decade.

Play the league in winter/spring which overall is the best and most entertaining competition as teams generally of a similar standard play each other. Teams have something genuine to strive for in promotion and those who aren't in the promotion picture is fighting to avoid relegation, a small amount of dead rubbers to certainly not a huge amount.

Then there's a lull in the year as the championship is at a pedestrian pace with to many mismatches in the provincial and backdoor, of the 32 teams involved over 20 have no hope of winning any silverware, there might be 1 or 2 really good games most weekends and then we a brilliant all ireland final and semi final series to salvage something from the year.

Under option B we have our provincials insuring the local element is maintained, i see the Cork CEO suggested maybe an additional 2 points bonus for the league phase for each provincial winner for extra incentive, something I'd be open for and would keep a provincial- all Ireland link.

Then instead of playing your best competition in winter/spring play it in spring/ summer. Think with July all ireland ireland finals it has an April start. Teams across the board are fighting for promotion and relegation like i mentioned, maybe division finals can be maintained but everyone is guaranteed 7 games at this time of the year to develop your team rather than 2-3 and back to the drawing board after that. As i said before why maintain a system which is proven to be broken, there's no guarantee it would be a success but its certainly worth a tiral in my opinion over what we had pre covid even with the introduction of the tailteann cup.

bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 16/10/2021 10:56:03    2385803

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Under this B proposal will all quarter finals be played in neutral venues or Croke Park?

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 16/10/2021 10:57:15    2385804

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Replying To Eastcoastexile:  "I agree that the B proposal is far from perfect but it has to be better than the present setup where most of the early rounds of the championship generate very little interest and where we have many total mismatches. The finances of the provincial councils shouldn't be an issue. It is very likely that the league championship format will generate at least the same amount of revenue overall and this can then be distributed to the provinces to bring their income up to the levels enjoyed under the existing setup. It seems that many of the provincial officers are against change. A bigger reason than finance for this stance is possibly that they perceive it as a diminution of their roles and offices. What is best for the health and growth of our sport should be the determining factor for change."
That's another thing, how would the money be share out under this new B proposal? Have they given any details?

I don't trust the gaa with money, they seem to just want to concentrate it in the capital.

All this should be addressed now by the provincial councils because there is no point trying to negotiate this after the deal is done because the province's will have no more power.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 16/10/2021 11:11:44    2385806

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