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I'm with brianb on this one. Even those arguing most strongly in favour of Proposal B accept there are flaws in it and that "tweaks" would be necessary. The issue is that there's a chance that instead of making tweaks, the powers-that-be would decide "that didn't work, so out with it", and then we'd be no better off. Anybody remember when the sin bin was first trialled in football? It meant ten minutes off the pitch for every single yellow card, no matter how innocuous. The solution to me at the time was simple - introduce an intermediate-level grade of offence, exactly as happens now with the black card - but it wasn't done, and instead the whole experiment was shelved for a number of years. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about in terms of something being discarded rather than tweaked. I think better to stay with the system we know (complete with its own flaws) and continue to work on something like B until the flaws are ironed out, rather than bring in B when we know from the outset that it's inherently flawed itself. Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2228 - 14/10/2021 19:22:54 2385686 Link 0 |
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Div 2 team hasn't won Sam in a while for 1 reason. Not good enough
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2006 - 14/10/2021 20:58:49 2385695 Link 1 |
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sorry a runaway train for dublin stick to your hurling in wexford . dublin will not win leinster football next year . their run has ended
mickcunningham (Westmeath) - Posts: 1799 - 15/10/2021 08:58:52 2385701 Link 0 |
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Enhanced Proposal B. edu (Mayo) - Posts: 30 - 15/10/2021 09:13:26 2385702 Link 0 |
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No matter what system is offered up the naysayers will always find issues. Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1826 - 15/10/2021 09:42:45 2385705 Link 3 |
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On the financial aspect - it certainly seems that the figures have been taken at a high level. It assumes that the attendances in Division 1 will average out at the super 8's level at 18,500 per game. In Division 2 the assumption is for 5,500 to attend with 4,000 & 2,000 in Div 3 & 4. The 10 million extra is 7 in the league; 2 in the provinces and 800k in the Taitleann cup. In fairness the provincial gate is expected to go from 3.5m to 5.5m mainly due to the increase in games from 27 to 81. 3 times as many games for a 60% increase in attendance. This itself is an implicit acceptance of the diminished status of the provincial championship but is probably realistic. The Taitlenn cup is happening anyway. But the headline 18,500 per game based on the Super 8's seems optimistic. In 2019 the only qualifier that topped 18,500 was Galway V Mayo where 19,100 attended in a winner takes all knock out 4th round qualifier. If the attendances are nearer the league level only the anticipated provincial gains remain. It will probably work out somewhere in between. If making money is the only concern then Option B is certainly the way. However I still feel that having an entry for the provincial champions would be fairer - retain the prestige of the provincial champion and probably be better financially as well. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 278 - 15/10/2021 09:50:46 2385706 Link 0 |
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And what evidence do we have to suggest that will happen? Ye might aswel stick to the hurling as you've as good a chance of winning Leinster in that at the as the football.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 15/10/2021 09:58:57 2385708 Link 0 |
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9th 10th 11th[top 3 Div.2] 17th [winner Div.3 and 25th[winner Div.4].So infact Div. 4 winners[rank 25th] qualify ahead of 15 teams that are above them in the rankings. The following is a more equitable and fairer formula while still adhering to the 4x 8 divisions- 2 divisions of 16, Division 1 National Football Championship [ N.F.C] Div. 1 cup for group winner with best record] 2 x 8 N.F.C 1A + N.F.C 1B Division 2 National Football Championship [N.F.C] 2 x 8 N.F.C 2 North + N.F.C 2 South [Cup for each winner] 12 teams qualify for All Ireland series instead of 10 in original proposal. 4 teams directly to quarter finals- top 2 in each Div. 1 groups Play off round [8 teams] 3nd 4th 5th from each Div.1 group + Div. 2 North winner + Div. 2 south winner. 3nd in each Div. 1 group play the two division champions. draw for pairings. Games in Croke Park. 4th 1A home v 5th 1B and 4th 1B home v 5th 1A. Quarter finals and semi finals Highest placed teams play lowest teams from other group/Div,2 where feasible. Relegation from Div.1 [3 down] Bottom placed team in Div. 1A + bottom placed team in Div. 1B. Loser relegation play off between 7th placed teams in Div.1A +Div.1B. Promotion from Div. 2 [3 up] Winner Div.2 North + winner Div. 2 South + Tailteann Cup winner Tailteann Cup. Not all Div. 2 teams qualify directly for Tailteann Cup. Only teams finishing 2nd 3nd 4th and 5th in Div.2 North and Div. 2 South qualify for quarter finals. 2nd and 3nd placed teams play home v 4th and 5th teams from other division. N.F.C Div.1 draw [seeded[ [using 2021 final league placings as example] 4 pots of 4 teams. Pot 1,2,3,4. 2 teams from each pot going into Div. 1A and 2 teams going into Dv. 1B. Pot 1- Donegal Tyrone Kerry Dublin Pot 2-Armagh Monaghan Galway Roscommon Pot 3-Mayo Meath Kildare Clare Pot 4 Down Cork Derry Offaly New draw to be made every second year. In the 2nd year of the cycle the fixtures are reversed. ie the home fixture becomes an away fixture and vice versa with the promoted teams taking the place of the relegated teams in the 2nd year of the 2 year cycle. N.F,C Div. 2 [Again using 2021 final league placings as example] North South Fermanagh Laois Cavan Limerick Longford Tipperary Weastmeath Wicklow Antrim Carlow Louth Waterford Sligo Wexford Leitrim London Having North and South divisions will obviously boost attendances with lots of local derbies. With the top 5 teams in each division qualifying for k.o games [winners to All Ireland and 2nd to 5th to Tailteann Cup] most teams should have something to play for right up to latter rounds.In the original proposal in Div, 4 there would be lots of dead rubber games with some teams out of the reckoning after 3 or 4 games and no relegation to battle against. That is the enhanced Proposal B."]That's not bad. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 15/10/2021 10:28:38 2385713 Link 1 |
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Yes we would be giving up a lot. Paddy Andrews Leinster medals may not mean much to him - but Glen Ryan's certainly mean a lot to him. A pre-season provincial medal would shine as bright as Paddy Andrew's ones for everyone and even less for some. But I do agree that the Leinster championship has been broken. I think we should try and fix it rather than cast it aside. Theres been plenty of posts on this topic before and how the GAA pumping millions each year into Dublin destroyed the Leinster championship. Option B is continuing this destruction. Surely a better option would be reinvigorate the championship either by limiting back room staff or providing that same level of backroom staff to each county. This along with finally providing coaches in areas across Leinster where football is in decline would hopefully go towards readdressing the balance somewhat. But lets remember that the same team that steam rolled through Leinster won 6-in-a-row at the All Ireland level and 8 of the last 11 - by any reckoning the whole championship is similarly some what broken by that measure. In my mind ideally we'd have a go at fixing both. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 278 - 15/10/2021 10:37:00 2385716 Link 0 |
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By why persist with a system proven to be flawed and frankly is tired and boring at this stage for 1 that might have flaws but ensures 7 championship games for all 32 participating teams. GAA statement last night shows their against option B so its probably not a runner, given 80% of GPA members who replied to the survey are in favour of option B i think those in power should be ashamed of themselves for letting down their most important stakeholder, their players. bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 15/10/2021 10:37:51 2385717 Link 1 |
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9th 10th 11th[top 3 Div.2] 17th [winner Div.3 and 25th[winner Div.4].So infact Div. 4 winners[rank 25th] qualify ahead of 15 teams that are above them in the rankings. The following is a more equitable and fairer formula while still adhering to the 4x 8 divisions- 2 divisions of 16, Division 1 National Football Championship [ N.F.C] Div. 1 cup for group winner with best record] 2 x 8 N.F.C 1A + N.F.C 1B Division 2 National Football Championship [N.F.C] 2 x 8 N.F.C 2 North + N.F.C 2 South [Cup for each winner] 12 teams qualify for All Ireland series instead of 10 in original proposal. 4 teams directly to quarter finals- top 2 in each Div. 1 groups Play off round [8 teams] 3nd 4th 5th from each Div.1 group + Div. 2 North winner + Div. 2 south winner. 3nd in each Div. 1 group play the two division champions. draw for pairings. Games in Croke Park. 4th 1A home v 5th 1B and 4th 1B home v 5th 1A. Quarter finals and semi finals Highest placed teams play lowest teams from other group/Div,2 where feasible. Relegation from Div.1 [3 down] Bottom placed team in Div. 1A + bottom placed team in Div. 1B. Loser relegation play off between 7th placed teams in Div.1A +Div.1B. Promotion from Div. 2 [3 up] Winner Div.2 North + winner Div. 2 South + Tailteann Cup winner Tailteann Cup. Not all Div. 2 teams qualify directly for Tailteann Cup. Only teams finishing 2nd 3nd 4th and 5th in Div.2 North and Div. 2 South qualify for quarter finals. 2nd and 3nd placed teams play home v 4th and 5th teams from other division. N.F.C Div.1 draw [seeded[ [using 2021 final league placings as example] 4 pots of 4 teams. Pot 1,2,3,4. 2 teams from each pot going into Div. 1A and 2 teams going into Dv. 1B. Pot 1- Donegal Tyrone Kerry Dublin Pot 2-Armagh Monaghan Galway Roscommon Pot 3-Mayo Meath Kildare Clare Pot 4 Down Cork Derry Offaly New draw to be made every second year. In the 2nd year of the cycle the fixtures are reversed. ie the home fixture becomes an away fixture and vice versa with the promoted teams taking the place of the relegated teams in the 2nd year of the 2 year cycle. N.F,C Div. 2 [Again using 2021 final league placings as example] North South Fermanagh Laois Cavan Limerick Longford Tipperary Weastmeath Wicklow Antrim Carlow Louth Waterford Sligo Wexford Leitrim London Having North and South divisions will obviously boost attendances with lots of local derbies. With the top 5 teams in each division qualifying for k.o games [winners to All Ireland and 2nd to 5th to Tailteann Cup] most teams should have something to play for right up to latter rounds.In the original proposal in Div, 4 there would be lots of dead rubber games with some teams out of the reckoning after 3 or 4 games and no relegation to battle against. That is the enhanced Proposal B."]I think that is a well thought out idea and better than the proposal on the table. Lots to play for and fewer dead rubbers. I'd still prefer to see guaranteed knock out sports for provincial champions (these will be most likely qualified anyway a lot of the time). Perhaps via a playoff against the bottom ranked teams for a place in the last 12 - or pull some of the higher ranked teams back into the preliminary 1/4 final? brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 278 - 15/10/2021 10:50:47 2385721 Link 0 |
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If ye go back to 2017 system you'll have 29 weekends with most Counties playing 9 or 10 games. Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1397 - 15/10/2021 11:03:26 2385724 Link 0 |
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. But brianb, not to be contentious for the sake of it ,you cant have a route in for the provincial champs or else summer NFL1 loses all drama as everyone (bar Kildare perhaps) probably makes it to the KO phase. The 4 provincial champs are already in Div1 - well certainly 3 are, you could see Galway or Ros winning Connacht perhaps. And that takes much/all of the competition/risk element out of the summer League which presumably was its main selling point. Actually what is the problem that the new proposals are supposed to solve. I'm not claiming there aren't issues with the current setup (obviously)but as I asked before how are these solved in either new setup. Prop B or indeed the Cromwell plan, as the Ulster boy termed it, could both be interesting/fun if ran for a season but the underlying Q remains. timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 15/10/2021 11:11:41 2385726 Link 0 |
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This vote is about ensuring a brighter future for players more than preserving the status of leinster medals won in the 90s. I don't think restricting the standards of the stronger teams is the way to go, instead we should to improve the standards of the weaker teams and 7 guaranteed meaningful games after March compared to 2 or 3 would go along way for this. On your last sentence Dublin have been challenged regularly by Mayo and Kerry in their 6 in a row where this year's Leinster final is a perfect example of the problem in Leinster where your own team went out in damage limitation mode rather than grasping the chance to win a provincial medal. Finally you claim option B continues the destruction but surely status quo does this to a worse extent given you admitted the problem exists already, also with status quo we're looking at minimum 6-7 championship games for Dublin, Mayo, Tyrone etc. while most div 3 and 4 teams probably get 2-3 surely maintaining the current divide.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 15/10/2021 11:19:30 2385728 Link 0 |
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Where do the GPA find these people? icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2550 - 15/10/2021 11:21:08 2385729 Link 1 |
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Unbelievable that despite that the vast majority of players and managers seem to favour Option B, many boards and delegates are obviously trying to screw them over. Option B isn't perfect, I think they should be 12 teams going through with a full play off round to meet the top four in the 1/4s. A pity there isn't an opportunity at Congress to make minor amendments. Also if it goes through would it be a good idea top open up broadcasting rights so more games could be shown. TG4, virgin etc. Also they should allow say Division 1 & 4 games on a Saturday, and 2 & 3 on a Sunday, vice versa from then on just to ensure there's some exposure. whoareya (Donegal) - Posts: 77 - 15/10/2021 11:27:56 2385730 Link 3 |
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. Basically it seems we just get more competitive games (NFL1) for the elite teams. This is fine in itself if that's what we are after. And more IC games in good weather and more money perhaps . But if we drill down what do we get ? Let's say for arguments sake that in 22 Kerry, Dublin and Mayo (I know, I know) are gonna make top 5 in NFL1 and Kildare wont. So we have a summer league to see which 2 of Donegal, Tyrone, Monaghan & Armagh don't make the KO phase of the champo. That sounds interesting in itself. But we already have an Ulster champo to sort this out & its a cracker. Plus the losing teams get a backdoor shot - more good games. So we are throwing away a 33 county KO Sam & the provincials for this tweak. Somewhat underwhelming when looked at in this light. If it wasn't for the anomalies /potential controversy it would have very little to recommend it. timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 15/10/2021 12:14:06 2385736 Link 1 |
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I don't think that's contentious at all if it was played out as the calendar is proposed. But I think you play the provincial championship final after the league. That would retain the competition in the summer league. In effect the province would become the new back door. Yes a team might have a safety net via the provincial route but I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing. I'm also only talking about giving the champions a spot in the knock out rounds and an earlier round than at present. I think the most unfair aspect of the championship as it stands right now is that the losing Munster and Connaught finalists may have won just one game and are into the last 12. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 278 - 15/10/2021 12:38:48 2385743 Link 0 |
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We've gone over most of those points before - and I do agree that Kildare showed too much respect to Dublin this year. I don't however agree that the provincial championships are 100% beyond repair. I think they can and should be fixed when looking at any championship proposal. Incidentally - calling the 7 league games in Div 3 & 4 "championship" games instead of "league" games doesn't change too much about the divide either. I would argue the opposite - removing the 2-3 games against higher ranked teams outside of a preseason competition will cause standards decline over the years. Before the mismatches are pointed out - I'm talking about games like Wicklow V Clare; or Kildare V Derry; rather than a mismatch like Mayo V Waterford. Hence the need for a properly tiered competition. In summary my viewpoint is - every team should have a chance to win Sam at the start of every year (however unlikely). This can be achieved by ensuring the provincial winners have a place in the knock out stages. Doing this means the Div 3 & 4 teams dont need to parachute into the knock out stages and can instead focus on a very meaningful 2nd tier competition where doing well means promotion to the top tier. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 278 - 15/10/2021 12:52:31 2385748 Link 0 |
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To much common sense in this post for some people to absorb.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 15/10/2021 13:22:45 2385749 Link 1 |