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Replying To wexico15: "Or just not useful when they don't enhance your viewpoint...." Or an appreciation that the different sports have unique challenges and that context matters.
For what it's worth there are aspects of the hurling championship that I expect to cause problems in the future and I've mentioned them in previous threads to this one on this site way before this discussion got going or this proposal was on the table.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 14/10/2021 12:50:34
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Replying To timmyhogan: ".
How does having Louth lads play their Div 3 games in summer (and still get relegated or stagnate possibly) fix the problem in Leinster. It doesn't as the Leinster problem isn't weather related.
Meanwhile the provincials are gone, the backdoor is gone & most thus teams don't get a chance to compete for Sam. Not to mention the anomalies.
Remind me again - what's the upside?
Apart from the craic at the end of the Div 1 campaign where Kildare say, having no chance of qualifying get beaten badly by Mayo for arguments sake who pip Tyrone to 5th place on points diff. Admittedly that would be good craic!" Done my research on Louth they've 4 championship wins in the last 10 years. 3 qualifier wins over Antrim in 2013, Leitrim in 15, London in 18 while they beat my own county in Leinster in 2019. Unless there's replays involved Louth have played 24 championship games from 2011-21. With option B there guaranteed at the very minimum 21 in the next 3 years along with provincial round robin earlier in the year. There's a pretty big upside.
Your talking about fixing the problem in Leinster but if a provincial championship has been won 16 times out of 17 by 1 team arguably its close to beyond repair. Your talking about provincial and backdoor been gone but provincial arguably isn't gone but yes it is diminished. Has 3 backdoor wins in 10 years served Louth better than the possibility of 7 guaranteed games each summer, certainly not.
A typical Louth year in the last decade has been treating the league as the more important competition where tangible progress is possible, maybe lose a few players between league and championship to a J1 hopefully get a win or 2 in championship. Then at the end of the year lose possibly a 1/3 of your panel who decide the commitment isn't worth it for 2 or 3 championship games.
Link below is an interview last night with Enda McGinley, well qualified to see both sides of the coin as he's managing a div 3 team and won 3 all Ireland's with Tyrone. As he mentioned option B changes the landscape for div 3 and 4 players, it doesn't impact the strong counties as much as realistically they'll be at the business end in any structure.
https://youtu.be/TAIuyN5CuD4
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 14/10/2021 13:02:53
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Replying To wexico15: "Done my research on Louth they've 4 championship wins in the last 10 years. 3 qualifier wins over Antrim in 2013, Leitrim in 15, London in 18 while they beat my own county in Leinster in 2019. Unless there's replays involved Louth have played 24 championship games from 2011-21. With option B there guaranteed at the very minimum 21 in the next 3 years along with provincial round robin earlier in the year. There's a pretty big upside.
Your talking about fixing the problem in Leinster but if a provincial championship has been won 16 times out of 17 by 1 team arguably its close to beyond repair. Your talking about provincial and backdoor been gone but provincial arguably isn't gone but yes it is diminished. Has 3 backdoor wins in 10 years served Louth better than the possibility of 7 guaranteed games each summer, certainly not.
A typical Louth year in the last decade has been treating the league as the more important competition where tangible progress is possible, maybe lose a few players between league and championship to a J1 hopefully get a win or 2 in championship. Then at the end of the year lose possibly a 1/3 of your panel who decide the commitment isn't worth it for 2 or 3 championship games.
Link below is an interview last night with Enda McGinley, well qualified to see both sides of the coin as he's managing a div 3 team and won 3 all Ireland's with Tyrone. As he mentioned option B changes the landscape for div 3 and 4 players, it doesn't impact the strong counties as much as realistically they'll be at the business end in any structure.
https://youtu.be/TAIuyN5CuD4" Look I'm all for a league based championship. Been on about it for years. Teams need to play more games in the main competition to progress and I think long run it will help competitiveness.
I just would rather hold off 1 year to get the right solution because we'll hopefully have this system for 20+ years or more and with how hard it is to change things in the GAA I think it's better to get it very close to right from the outset.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 14/10/2021 13:51:04
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Replying To Whammo86: "Look I'm all for a league based championship. Been on about it for years. Teams need to play more games in the main competition to progress and I think long run it will help competitiveness.
I just would rather hold off 1 year to get the right solution because we'll hopefully have this system for 20+ years or more and with how hard it is to change things in the GAA I think it's better to get it very close to right from the outset." Fair enough but why persist with a system which is proven to be broken?
Why not give option B a run on a trial basis and make tweaks if issues arise.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 14/10/2021 14:15:53
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Replying To wexico15: "If you qualify for the knockout stage via Div 2,3,4 I'd imagine it's all seeded and you'll face a team who probably finished in the top 3 or 4 of div 1 in the All Ireland quarter final if teams make it that far, realistically facing 1 of Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone and Donegal so hardly the best or easy option." Its not an easy option - but would you sooner be in the All Ireland 1/4 final or 6th in Division 1 and no knock out games?
There seems to be 2 main schools of though in this thread. Pass Option B and tweak it down the line - or explore the obvious short-comings and come back with a better thought out proposal.
From what I hear nobody is advocating that either the current championship or Option B should be the structure in 2025 - so the main question is: Is Option B or the current championship a better stepping stone to get there?
We'd be giving up a lot to trial Option B - I believe the status quo with all its unfairness is still fairer and more logical; so for me - no thanks; back to the drawing board and bring through a fairer and more equitable championship for 2023/24.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 404 - 14/10/2021 14:52:11
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Replying To Highandmighty: "The argument of teams not finishing in the Top 5 of division 1 not getting a chance at the all-ireland makes no sense to me.
The league structure is your chance, if you have lost all of your games bar one and get into say 6th place in division 1, realistically you aren't challenging for anything this year and a team with some momentum behind them like a division 2 or 3 winner has a better chance than you.
Your chance was the league based games you had and you didn't take them so yeah, it is better luck next year." However a team could win six or seven Division 1 points and finish 6th in Division 1 and therefore 6th in the All Ireland league standings whilst losing other very competitive games by a point which isn't uncommon in Div 1. If a county is hammered in their seven games fair enough but that is uncommon.
Is say six Division 1 points harder to achieve that ten to twelve in Division four or eight to ten in Division 2 or 3?
I think it would be a poor competition if every Division 1 team was guaranteed progression to the senior championship regardless of league placing; I can see the benefit and excitement of teams of all leagues having to earn their place and it would make for a great league product.
However totally elimating a Division 1 team in place of a Division 4 team is a bit extreme, certainly elimating 6th place in Division 1 is over the top; as mentioned above sixth placed teams usually end up with a decent amount of hard to earn Div 1 points.
sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 14/10/2021 15:06:30
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Replying To brianb: "Its not an easy option - but would you sooner be in the All Ireland 1/4 final or 6th in Division 1 and no knock out games?
There seems to be 2 main schools of though in this thread. Pass Option B and tweak it down the line - or explore the obvious short-comings and come back with a better thought out proposal.
From what I hear nobody is advocating that either the current championship or Option B should be the structure in 2025 - so the main question is: Is Option B or the current championship a better stepping stone to get there?
We'd be giving up a lot to trial Option B - I believe the status quo with all its unfairness is still fairer and more logical; so for me - no thanks; back to the drawing board and bring through a fairer and more equitable championship for 2023/24." Would we really be giving up alot for option B? outside of all ireland finals and semi finals, its been a pretty dire decade for football in my opinion, Munster and Leinster championships are runaway trains for Kerry and Dublin and Connacht is 2 games of value 1 connacht semi final and the final involving Mayo, Galway and Roscommon, arguably only Ulster the big sarafice and with option B Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan and Armagh will all face each other in high stakes div 1 games, imagine the atmosphere of Armagh Tyrone in the Athletic grounds. Although not at the same blue ribbon status there's still an Ulster championship earlier in the year and I think an Armagh Tyrone game in February in the athletic grounds after no intercounty action since the previous July or August would draw a big attendance. The status quo is a proven to be broken system so even for bridging purposes to another structure holds no value in my opinion. I don't think option B will get 60% at Congress but i hope it does, i think its certainly worth a tiral and dismissing it before its road tested is regressive in my book, remember plenty taught a split season couldn't be implemented but after hands were forced after a global pandemic its proven to be a success.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 14/10/2021 15:16:17
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Replying To wexico15: "Would we really be giving up alot for option B? outside of all ireland finals and semi finals, its been a pretty dire decade for football in my opinion, Munster and Leinster championships are runaway trains for Kerry and Dublin and Connacht is 2 games of value 1 connacht semi final and the final involving Mayo, Galway and Roscommon, arguably only Ulster the big sarafice and with option B Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan and Armagh will all face each other in high stakes div 1 games, imagine the atmosphere of Armagh Tyrone in the Athletic grounds. Although not at the same blue ribbon status there's still an Ulster championship earlier in the year and I think an Armagh Tyrone game in February in the athletic grounds after no intercounty action since the previous July or August would draw a big attendance. The status quo is a proven to be broken system so even for bridging purposes to another structure holds no value in my opinion. I don't think option B will get 60% at Congress but i hope it does, i think its certainly worth a tiral and dismissing it before its road tested is regressive in my book, remember plenty taught a split season couldn't be implemented but after hands were forced after a global pandemic its proven to be a success." Armagh v Tyrone may draw a crowd in the spring, depends on the weather and price of tickets for what will become a pre season game with management not playing their strongest teams. That's a poor replacement for what it would draw in the summer with the game connected to the championship.
Trial as the Super 8s was isn't up for discussion if Proposal B is voted in its permanent.
Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 3544 - 14/10/2021 15:42:34
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Replying To Gaa_lover: "Armagh v Tyrone may draw a crowd in the spring, depends on the weather and price of tickets for what will become a pre season game with management not playing their strongest teams. That's a poor replacement for what it would draw in the summer with the game connected to the championship.
Trial as the Super 8s was isn't up for discussion if Proposal B is voted in its permanent." If option b was voted in they'll meet in Omagh or Armagh in a Div 1 game which I'm sure would draw a big crowd.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 14/10/2021 15:47:16
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Replying To Whammo86: "Look I'm all for a league based championship. Been on about it for years. Teams need to play more games in the main competition to progress and I think long run it will help competitiveness.
I just would rather hold off 1 year to get the right solution because we'll hopefully have this system for 20+ years or more and with how hard it is to change things in the GAA I think it's better to get it very close to right from the outset." Exactly, let them take another year and get it right.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 14/10/2021 15:55:18
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Replying To wexico15: "Done my research on Louth they've 4 championship wins in the last 10 years. 3 qualifier wins over Antrim in 2013, Leitrim in 15, London in 18 while they beat my own county in Leinster in 2019. Unless there's replays involved Louth have played 24 championship games from 2011-21. With option B there guaranteed at the very minimum 21 in the next 3 years along with provincial round robin earlier in the year. There's a pretty big upside.
Your talking about fixing the problem in Leinster but if a provincial championship has been won 16 times out of 17 by 1 team arguably its close to beyond repair. Your talking about provincial and backdoor been gone but provincial arguably isn't gone but yes it is diminished. Has 3 backdoor wins in 10 years served Louth better than the possibility of 7 guaranteed games each summer, certainly not.
A typical Louth year in the last decade has been treating the league as the more important competition where tangible progress is possible, maybe lose a few players between league and championship to a J1 hopefully get a win or 2 in championship. Then at the end of the year lose possibly a 1/3 of your panel who decide the commitment isn't worth it for 2 or 3 championship games.
Link below is an interview last night with Enda McGinley, well qualified to see both sides of the coin as he's managing a div 3 team and won 3 all Ireland's with Tyrone. As he mentioned option B changes the landscape for div 3 and 4 players, it doesn't impact the strong counties as much as realistically they'll be at the business end in any structure.
https://youtu.be/TAIuyN5CuD4" .
I see.
We shall redefine Louth's 7 league games as championship games and Hey Presto the problem is solved.
In reality they will have gone from minimum 1 champo game + 1 qualifier to none,
And the chance of a good backdoor run which some weaker teams may have from time to time is gone.
Progress of a sort!
Here's a simpler way of addressing the new proposition - Do the 20 odd weaker teams want to swap the current setup for a lower level competition.
If so - go for it.
If not - tell 'em straight that they are out of luck and less of the semantics - to use the polite term.
timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 14/10/2021 15:58:51
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Replying To sam1884: "However a team could win six or seven Division 1 points and finish 6th in Division 1 and therefore 6th in the All Ireland league standings whilst losing other very competitive games by a point which isn't uncommon in Div 1. If a county is hammered in their seven games fair enough but that is uncommon.
Is say six Division 1 points harder to achieve that ten to twelve in Division four or eight to ten in Division 2 or 3?
I think it would be a poor competition if every Division 1 team was guaranteed progression to the senior championship regardless of league placing; I can see the benefit and excitement of teams of all leagues having to earn their place and it would make for a great league product.
However totally elimating a Division 1 team in place of a Division 4 team is a bit extreme, certainly elimating 6th place in Division 1 is over the top; as mentioned above sixth placed teams usually end up with a decent amount of hard to earn Div 1 points." .
Thats the unsolvable conundrum - if the GAA want a (financially lucrative) Super 8 style summer Div 1 competition to qualify for champo KO phase there has to be an element of risk for some Div 1 teams. Top 6 making it means that after 3, 4 or 5 games some teams will be able to coast with an eye to the champo.
Top 5 works to an extent w.r.t. competiition/drama but with the obvious anomalies and downsides.
All 8 means it just a later league and a warm up for the champo with the only real competition being avoiding relegation (which wouldn't be the end of the world - see Mayo this year) & an element of seeding which mightn't mean much come KO. Basically all 8 defeats the purpose.
timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 14/10/2021 16:25:45
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Replying To timmyhogan: ".
Thats the unsolvable conundrum - if the GAA want a (financially lucrative) Super 8 style summer Div 1 competition to qualify for champo KO phase there has to be an element of risk for some Div 1 teams. Top 6 making it means that after 3, 4 or 5 games some teams will be able to coast with an eye to the champo.
Top 5 works to an extent w.r.t. competiition/drama but with the obvious anomalies and downsides.
All 8 means it just a later league and a warm up for the champo with the only real competition being avoiding relegation (which wouldn't be the end of the world - see Mayo this year) & an element of seeding which mightn't mean much come KO. Basically all 8 defeats the purpose." The solution might be some form of pre championship, post league play off system involving at least 6th place in Division 1 but maybe 7th as well and the lower league champions. Maybe the lower league champions could get home advantage in the play off. That way every team competes for the All Ireland from the start of the league/championship but it is somewhat fairer for the teams competing in Division 1.
sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 14/10/2021 16:54:23
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Replying To timmyhogan: ".
I see.
We shall redefine Louth's 7 league games as championship games and Hey Presto the problem is solved.
In reality they will have gone from minimum 1 champo game + 1 qualifier to none,
And the chance of a good backdoor run which some weaker teams may have from time to time is gone.
Progress of a sort!
Here's a simpler way of addressing the new proposition - Do the 20 odd weaker teams want to swap the current setup for a lower level competition.
If so - go for it.
If not - tell 'em straight that they are out of luck and less of the semantics - to use the polite term." Your 1st paragraph is factly incorrect and illogical in my opinion, just because a game is part of a round robin phase doesn't mean it isn't a championship game, every layer of the hurling championship was run as a round robin in 2018/19 and will be next year, due to covid same thing for every layer in the last 2 years except Liam McCarthy, no competition suffered due to this, there still would be an winter/spring league based competition with the provincial round Robins under option B, my own county has had group phases in hurling and football club championship since 2004 or 05, the league based games haven't diluted the competition in any way.
You mentioned finances in another post well here's some projections of a potential windfall
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/championship-revamp-could-bag-gaa-10m-windfall-in-extra-gate-receipts-40943439.html
Finally your last paragraph suggests your an individual who is hard to take seriously.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 14/10/2021 17:02:25
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Replying To Whammo86: "Look I'm all for a league based championship. Been on about it for years. Teams need to play more games in the main competition to progress and I think long run it will help competitiveness.
I just would rather hold off 1 year to get the right solution because we'll hopefully have this system for 20+ years or more and with how hard it is to change things in the GAA I think it's better to get it very close to right from the outset." That is what is most likely to happen in fairness. The status quo will remain and there will be another review next year.
However, every championship restructure going forward is going to have a potential route for a Division 4 team to win an All-Ireland whether through the provincial championships or Tailteann Cup winners getting a shot at the QFinals or something like this..
I know the vast majority on here don't agree with that. However, the fixtures committee met with ferocious resistance to any possibility of their being total elimination of all teams eventhough, and we all know it, no team outside of Division 1 has a chance of winning Sam. History shows that at least. Can't remember the last team outside Div1 won Sam?? Maybe it has happened.
We are light years away from a ladies Football model or a hurling model being implemented for men's Gaelic Football. For all the perceived positive and even logical arguments for it, this years special congress shows that it can't even get into a proposal.
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 14/10/2021 17:10:56
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Replying To timmyhogan: ".
Thats the unsolvable conundrum - if the GAA want a (financially lucrative) Super 8 style summer Div 1 competition to qualify for champo KO phase there has to be an element of risk for some Div 1 teams. Top 6 making it means that after 3, 4 or 5 games some teams will be able to coast with an eye to the champo.
Top 5 works to an extent w.r.t. competiition/drama but with the obvious anomalies and downsides.
All 8 means it just a later league and a warm up for the champo with the only real competition being avoiding relegation (which wouldn't be the end of the world - see Mayo this year) & an element of seeding which mightn't mean much come KO. Basically all 8 defeats the purpose." Yeah that's another big problem I have with the proposal, it's going to be a dull enough league campaign.
We want to see high stakes fixtures in championship
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 14/10/2021 17:28:39
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Replying To timmyhogan: ".
I see.
We shall redefine Louth's 7 league games as championship games and Hey Presto the problem is solved.
In reality they will have gone from minimum 1 champo game + 1 qualifier to none,
And the chance of a good backdoor run which some weaker teams may have from time to time is gone.
Progress of a sort!
Here's a simpler way of addressing the new proposition - Do the 20 odd weaker teams want to swap the current setup for a lower level competition.
If so - go for it.
If not - tell 'em straight that they are out of luck and less of the semantics - to use the polite term." .
Actually the Tailteann comes in next year for Div 3 & 4 teams either way, does it not? - having been delayed due to Covid.
Thats if Congress goes with pre 18' status quo or prop B.
timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 14/10/2021 17:37:36
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Replying To bennybunny: "That is what is most likely to happen in fairness. The status quo will remain and there will be another review next year.
However, every championship restructure going forward is going to have a potential route for a Division 4 team to win an All-Ireland whether through the provincial championships or Tailteann Cup winners getting a shot at the QFinals or something like this..
I know the vast majority on here don't agree with that. However, the fixtures committee met with ferocious resistance to any possibility of their being total elimination of all teams eventhough, and we all know it, no team outside of Division 1 has a chance of winning Sam. History shows that at least. Can't remember the last team outside Div1 won Sam?? Maybe it has happened.
We are light years away from a ladies Football model or a hurling model being implemented for men's Gaelic Football. For all the perceived positive and even logical arguments for it, this years special congress shows that it can't even get into a proposal." It's funny in 2002 both Armagh and Kerry had been playing in the old division 2 (equivalent of division 3 and 4 merged).
I could be on board with some sort of qualifiers to a group stage system, so that everyone has a chance.
There was a suggestion previously that you do National League and Provincials followed by 2 championships of 4 groups of 4. That sounded like a great season.
Tier 1 and 2 champions from previous year, 4 Provincial champions, 10 other best ranked from the league qualify. Maybe have division 3 champions guaranteed a spot also.
There are other good ways of doing something either that make way more sense than what's on the table.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 14/10/2021 18:10:42
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Replying To wexico15: "Your 1st paragraph is factly incorrect and illogical in my opinion, just because a game is part of a round robin phase doesn't mean it isn't a championship game, every layer of the hurling championship was run as a round robin in 2018/19 and will be next year, due to covid same thing for every layer in the last 2 years except Liam McCarthy, no competition suffered due to this, there still would be an winter/spring league based competition with the provincial round Robins under option B, my own county has had group phases in hurling and football club championship since 2004 or 05, the league based games haven't diluted the competition in any way.
You mentioned finances in another post well here's some projections of a potential windfall
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/championship-revamp-could-bag-gaa-10m-windfall-in-extra-gate-receipts-40943439.html
Finally your last paragraph suggests your an individual who is hard to take seriously." .
Now don't be like that.
Perhaps Louth will top Div 3 and go on to win Sam in 22 thus proving that Prop B is a good idea.
However I shall be recalcitrant and insist that the problem in Leinster is not weather related & furthermore that the Div 3 & 4 league games are not champo games.
timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 14/10/2021 18:20:45
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Replying To brianb: "Its not an easy option - but would you sooner be in the All Ireland 1/4 final or 6th in Division 1 and no knock out games?
There seems to be 2 main schools of though in this thread. Pass Option B and tweak it down the line - or explore the obvious short-comings and come back with a better thought out proposal.
From what I hear nobody is advocating that either the current championship or Option B should be the structure in 2025 - so the main question is: Is Option B or the current championship a better stepping stone to get there?
We'd be giving up a lot to trial Option B - I believe the status quo with all its unfairness is still fairer and more logical; so for me - no thanks; back to the drawing board and bring through a fairer and more equitable championship for 2023/24." Again on your giving up alot line I'll use Leinster championship as an example, Paddy Andrews openly said this year the Leinster medals he won in the 2nd half of his Dublin career meant nothing as they are at a point where Sam Maguire is the only currency. I don't think any Leinster county would consider an Winter/ Spring Leinster championship a sarafice and the same applies to Munster.
I think at this stage the provincials are arguably a hurdle to progress for better as much as anything.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 14/10/2021 18:32:46
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