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Replying To foreveryoung: "On the contrary, it has worked very well in hurling for many years. and continues to do so. Please explain why you believe that it hasn't!" Well I think it depends on your ambition. If I were a player then my aim would be to play at the top level against the best teams and the best players. If this is your yardstick, how many of the weaker teams in the hurling championship have managed to achieve that goal? I can't name one. Ok, there's been limited and I mean limited success for Laois and Carlow in terms of promotion to the Leinster championship and in spots they have been competitive without really challenging the elite. I think somethings in the GAA, there is this perception that we want the weaker counties to improve and be competitive without challenging the establishment that exists in hurling and football. I don't count the Nicky Rackard and the other competitions as an All Ireland in their own right.
I accept that it is a fine balancing act but I am a member of club and the goal is always to be senior and to win a county championship. I am applying the same logic to the inter county scene. I accept that my own county will probably never win the All Ireland in my lifetime but I would like to see us competing at provincial level (if it continues to exist) and to play in Division 2 of the NFL and challenge the top end of the market. I would hope that a player wouldn't need to switch counties to get recognition and fulfil his potential but equally I wouldn't expect a player to train for 30-40 hours per week to play in a mickey-mouse competition that leads to nowhere as most of the previous competitions of this nature were.
wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 2060 - 08/09/2021 09:36:30
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What do people think is the problem with the current championship. I sometimes think people don't like the Provincials but then when you delve into the reasons for that the new systems that get proposed don't solve the actual issues but end up fixing non problems.
The make every province have 8 teams is the classic example of it not actually fixing a problem. The Provincials will still have big disparities in quality between and within Provinces which for me is the big issue. This lack of fairness in routes to the All Ireland and for me that's just not addressed by moving around a few weaker counties into Connacht and Munster.
The second proposal is trying to make the league the championship but it's not really suitable because you can't have only 8 teams in the running for Sam. The lower division teams qualifying at the expense of higher division teams takes away one of the key features of the league system, that there's reward and jeopardy associated with the promotion and relegation system.
So for me the 2 alternatives proposed are badly thought out and shouldn't be implemented but the status quo is also lacking.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4414 - 08/09/2021 10:25:59
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Its interesting to read posts on this topics over the last few years. So many diverse opinions. The underlying reasons for posters proposals can be very different and maybe there within lies the problem. If there's not one overall objective then how can you ever get alignment.
I'd imagine its similar at congress!
Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1467 - 08/09/2021 11:14:21
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Replying To Whammo86: "What do people think is the problem with the current championship. I sometimes think people don't like the Provincials but then when you delve into the reasons for that the new systems that get proposed don't solve the actual issues but end up fixing non problems.
The make every province have 8 teams is the classic example of it not actually fixing a problem. The Provincials will still have big disparities in quality between and within Provinces which for me is the big issue. This lack of fairness in routes to the All Ireland and for me that's just not addressed by moving around a few weaker counties into Connacht and Munster.
The second proposal is trying to make the league the championship but it's not really suitable because you can't have only 8 teams in the running for Sam. The lower division teams qualifying at the expense of higher division teams takes away one of the key features of the league system, that there's reward and jeopardy associated with the promotion and relegation system.
So for me the 2 alternatives proposed are badly thought out and shouldn't be implemented but the status quo is also lacking." Totally agree with everything you say. I do think the second proposal brings us closer to a better over-all solution. And for me, an over-all better solution is one where teams play at a level they can compete. One where distinction at your level means progressing to the next level or in the case of the higher level, winning Sam. Failure to compete at a level means dropping to a lower level.
Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1467 - 08/09/2021 11:36:08
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Replying To Greengrass: "I can't agree with you. The round robin system would be seeded most likely on the basis of league position. Anyone who has watched the Champion's League knows that the round robin system is an awful format that is manipulated in favour of clubs from the big four leagues." Round robin is a good system which works.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 08/09/2021 12:58:57
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "No one will vote for a change to the Ulster championship- much like the Munster hurling championship it needs to be retained in any new structure
Much like hurling though, the other provinces are dead ducks
Solution is simple - copy the hurling championships except having a 6 team Ulster round robin and a 6 team Munster/Leinster/Connacht group
The other 20 get split into 10 intermediate (2 groups of 5 and winners in to senior playoffs) and 10 junior (2 groups of 5 with top two promoted)
An Ulster group of Armagh, Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan, Derry and Down/Cavan wouldn't be great viewing
Similarly a second group with Kerry, Mayo, Dublin, Kildare, Galway and Roscommon/Meath would be good viewing" How do you handle promotion and relegation from Ulster? Same problem with hurling. Provincial structure can't be retsined within the All-Ireland.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 08/09/2021 13:03:30
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Replying To Ban: "Its interesting to read posts on this topics over the last few years. So many diverse opinions. The underlying reasons for posters proposals can be very different and maybe there within lies the problem. If there's not one overall objective then how can you ever get alignment.
I'd imagine its similar at congress!" 100%
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4414 - 08/09/2021 14:03:49
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Replying To Ban: "Totally agree with everything you say. I do think the second proposal brings us closer to a better over-all solution. And for me, an over-all better solution is one where teams play at a level they can compete. One where distinction at your level means progressing to the next level or in the case of the higher level, winning Sam. Failure to compete at a level means dropping to a lower level." Yeah
The best solution I can come up with is:
2 streams, league stream plus provincial stream.
Top 4 from league stream and 4 Provincial champions to All Ireland series.
If you qualify twice you get a bye to the semifinals.
Keeps the provincials, replaces qualifiers with a tiered league.
It's far from perfect though.
There will be differing difficulty levels for non division 1 teams to win their province, maintains that lack of fairness.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4414 - 08/09/2021 14:10:29
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Replying To Rolo2010: "Round robin is a good system which works." It doesn't work in the Champions League. As a system it's open to manipulation. That has happened in the Champion's League. Most issues in the round robin of the Champion's League are decided before the last round of games are played. As a format it is as dull as dishwater.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6170 - 08/09/2021 17:07:59
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Replying To Whammo86: "Yeah
The best solution I can come up with is:
2 streams, league stream plus provincial stream.
Top 4 from league stream and 4 Provincial champions to All Ireland series.
If you qualify twice you get a bye to the semifinals.
Keeps the provincials, replaces qualifiers with a tiered league.
It's far from perfect though.
There will be differing difficulty levels for non division 1 teams to win their province, maintains that lack of fairness." Not a fan of that bye system or limiting Senior to 8 teams.
Proposal B is the way forward but needs to be overhauled.
All Division 1 and 2 sides + Tier 2 champions go into Senior. They can play off against the Division 2 final losers in a preliminary round. NY can be in Tier 2 to make up the numbers. It's far from what my preferred format is but would be a big improvement.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 08/09/2021 17:31:10
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Replying To Whammo86: "What do people think is the problem with the current championship. I sometimes think people don't like the Provincials but then when you delve into the reasons for that the new systems that get proposed don't solve the actual issues but end up fixing non problems.
The make every province have 8 teams is the classic example of it not actually fixing a problem. The Provincials will still have big disparities in quality between and within Provinces which for me is the big issue. This lack of fairness in routes to the All Ireland and for me that's just not addressed by moving around a few weaker counties into Connacht and Munster.
The second proposal is trying to make the league the championship but it's not really suitable because you can't have only 8 teams in the running for Sam. The lower division teams qualifying at the expense of higher division teams takes away one of the key features of the league system, that there's reward and jeopardy associated with the promotion and relegation system.
So for me the 2 alternatives proposed are badly thought out and shouldn't be implemented but the status quo is also lacking." Very good post Whammo.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6170 - 08/09/2021 17:38:35
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I like a variation of the Tirawley idea earlier -
For Tier 1 Senior (similar to hurling) - have an Ulster group and a Rest/Non Ulster group (I'd have both 5 teams) - top 2 in each to AI Series (Uls Final top 2 also played).
For the league, those 4 group results count as well, and the 5 other 'inter-group' matches are also played (Uls 5 v Rest 5). Top 4 based on 9-match record to AI Series as well (byes to AI SFs for teams advancing twice).
Tier 2 Intermediate - similar 2 groups of 5 and 9-match league (top 2, 2 & 4 to KO).
Tier 3 Junior - regional 2 groups of 6 (North & South double round robin) - top 3 in each to crossover 6-team KO.
One up / one down between tiers (tier 1 relegated team is from Ulster or Rest, depending on who wins tier 2 AI).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3099 - 08/09/2021 18:16:25
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If we could get Ulster to be a stand alone Championship - I'd have a League-Championship like this -
Tier 1 (Top 16) drawn to 3 'balanced' groups A, B & C of 5, 5 & 6 teams, respectively, based on seeding.
With 5- team groups playing separate round robins -and the 6-team group playing the other 10 teams - each team plays a 10-match schedule.
The top 8 in a combined 16-team, 10-match table, to Aussie AFL-style playoffs (similar to 2021 Liam McC Cup 'last 8' format).
Tier 2 with similar structure.
4 Up (T2, SF 4) / 4 Down (T1, 13th to 16th).
Alternative - Add T1 bottom 8 to T2 top 8 for 16-team AFL-style T2 Championship instead (QF 8 are in T1 League in following year).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3099 - 08/09/2021 18:27:05
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Dont see how keeping whats in place now is good or changing to straight knockout.
Counties need games but changing whole structure has to happen. majority of inter county games are played by end of february which is ridiculous
you need to keep provincial competitions as well as an all ireland cup but the main competition for all counties needs to be league based
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3730 - 08/09/2021 18:57:11
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Replying To Greengrass: "It doesn't work in the Champions League. As a system it's open to manipulation. That has happened in the Champion's League. Most issues in the round robin of the Champion's League are decided before the last round of games are played. As a format it is as dull as dishwater." Champions League is a in a professional sport and has no relevance to GAA. Group stage format is used by most counties and works.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 08/09/2021 19:35:01
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Replying To Rolo2010: "Champions League is a in a professional sport and has no relevance to GAA. Group stage format is used by most counties and works." Actually the Donegal SFC in 2020 was a novel design.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3099 - 08/09/2021 20:49:20
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Replying To omahant: "Actually the Donegal SFC in 2020 was a novel design." Not popular within the county though.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 08/09/2021 21:06:13
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Replying To Rolo2010: "Champions League is a in a professional sport and has no relevance to GAA. Group stage format is used by most counties and works." It has every relevance. It is seeded ad will the group stages of any All Ireland championship that adopts the round robin format. The strong will get even stronger and the weaker counties will be left behind. A modified provincial championship had to be at the core of any restructuring of the championship. Group stages are adopted in most counties but they are unseeded.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6170 - 08/09/2021 22:35:09
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Below, I propose an All Ireland SFC structure that was inspired by the provision for 'guest teams' in certain international soccer tournaments.
Qatar was an Asian Cup soccer champion (won in 2019) and in 2021, was an invited 'guest team' to BOTH the North/Central American Championship (CONCACAF Gold Cup) AND the South American Championship (Conmebol Copa America) - story link below (ultimately, Qatar withdrew from the latter due to the pandemic.)
http://www.insideworldfootball.com/2020/09/03/asian-cup-champions-qatar-guest-gold-cup-us
I think the GAA could trial 'guest teams' in their Provincial Championships as well, albeit in a looser form, as a means to refresh these competitions.
I propose that the All-Ireland Championship starts with four Provinces, each with eight teams (after reallocation of 4 Ulster/Leinster teams, from either low NFL rankings, or defeat in the Provincial Preliminary Rd, if the latter is not disbanded).
Structure each 'Provincial Eight' using the 2017 Christy Ring Cup format (with Rds 1, 2a, 2b, QFs, SFs & Final), including an Open Draw in Rd 1.
To create 'guest teams', the two Rd 2b winners in each Province relocate - one to each 'coastal' neighbouring Province for the Provincial QF Rd.
So, the 'Last Six' in each Province will mostly consist of four 'home' teams (Rd 2a participants, as Rd 1 winners) and two guests (kept apart in QFs).
Ultimately, the four Provincial Champions advance directly to 'old-style' AI SFs (or alternatively, to AI Rd of 16, incl NFL top 11 non-Prov Champs & prior year Tier 2 Champs = Jim McGuiness idea).
With an Prov Open Draw in Rd 1, this should cause some strong teams to relocate (after winning in Rd 2b and losing in Rd 1) and provide for more balanced, mixed quality regional competitions.
'Back door' matches within the Provincial structure may have more appeal than the Qualifiers.
There could be real mischief if Tyrone takes Dublin's Leinster crown north, or if Kerry is hurting as "their" Munster cup is taken out west by Galway or Mayo.
While this structure could re-balance the regional championships and keep all teams competing for the Sam Maguire Cup, uncompetitive pairings would still be expected.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3099 - 09/09/2021 00:55:52
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Replying To omahant: "Below, I propose an All Ireland SFC structure that was inspired by the provision for 'guest teams' in certain international soccer tournaments. Qatar was an Asian Cup soccer champion (won in 2019) and in 2021, was an invited 'guest team' to BOTH the North/Central American Championship (CONCACAF Gold Cup) AND the South American Championship (Conmebol Copa America) - story link below (ultimately, Qatar withdrew from the latter due to the pandemic.) http://www.insideworldfootball.com/2020/09/03/asian-cup-champions-qatar-guest-gold-cup-usI think the GAA could trial 'guest teams' in their Provincial Championships as well, albeit in a looser form, as a means to refresh these competitions. I propose that the All-Ireland Championship starts with four Provinces, each with eight teams (after reallocation of 4 Ulster/Leinster teams, from either low NFL rankings, or defeat in the Provincial Preliminary Rd, if the latter is not disbanded). Structure each 'Provincial Eight' using the 2017 Christy Ring Cup format (with Rds 1, 2a, 2b, QFs, SFs & Final), including an Open Draw in Rd 1. To create 'guest teams', the two Rd 2b winners in each Province relocate - one to each 'coastal' neighbouring Province for the Provincial QF Rd. So, the 'Last Six' in each Province will mostly consist of four 'home' teams (Rd 2a participants, as Rd 1 winners) and two guests (kept apart in QFs). Ultimately, the four Provincial Champions advance directly to 'old-style' AI SFs (or alternatively, to AI Rd of 16, incl NFL top 11 non-Prov Champs & prior year Tier 2 Champs = Jim McGuiness idea). With an Prov Open Draw in Rd 1, this should cause some strong teams to relocate (after winning in Rd 2b and losing in Rd 1) and provide for more balanced, mixed quality regional competitions. 'Back door' matches within the Provincial structure may have more appeal than the Qualifiers. There could be real mischief if Tyrone takes Dublin's Leinster crown north, or if Kerry is hurting as "their" Munster cup is taken out west by Galway or Mayo. While this structure could re-balance the regional championships and keep all teams competing for the Sam Maguire Cup, uncompetitive pairings would still be expected."
If you're going down that route just get rid of the Provincials altogether.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4414 - 09/09/2021 11:35:02
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