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Replying To brianb: "Its going to get complicated if everyone gets what they want. That there are a lot of ideas on this thread with the majority of them better than either of the proposals that are on offer.
While there seems to be a chance that Proposal B might pass - if it does I'd feel it is an opportunity lost. I believe it would be better to figure out what type of change everyone wants. Congress could be asked the following questions - with the answers informing the new championship structure:
- Should the provincial championships be kept?
- If kept should they feed the All Ireland championships in some way?
- If the provinces are seeding the All Ireland in some way should it take preference over the league placings?
- Should the league be kept?
- Should the league feed the All Ireland championships in some way?
- Do we want a second tier?
- Do we want a third tier?
- If there is a second tier should the final be played to allow a back door entry to the All Ireland or should the final be played on All Ireland weekend?
- Should lower tier counties be allowed to compete for Sam Maguire or should teams need to achieve promotion to that level like all other GAA competitions?
There's probably more questions like that - but you'd get a genuine feel for what change is genuinely wanted.
If Proposal B is passed I believe it will accelerate the decline of football outside the traditional powers. The provincial championships will become the new pre-season and slowly but surely the gaps between the divisions will increase." I agree this is how the process should look and probably should have looked from the start.
If someone nailed down the answers to these important questions then I think coming up with the right format would be easy.
They've started with the league format and are trying to alter it to fit but have lost sight in my view of what made the league successful, the cut throat nature of the promotion and relegation battle is completely neutered by the playoff criteria.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 11/10/2021 11:10:17
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Replying To brianb: "Its going to get complicated if everyone gets what they want. That there are a lot of ideas on this thread with the majority of them better than either of the proposals that are on offer.
While there seems to be a chance that Proposal B might pass - if it does I'd feel it is an opportunity lost. I believe it would be better to figure out what type of change everyone wants. Congress could be asked the following questions - with the answers informing the new championship structure:
- Should the provincial championships be kept?
- If kept should they feed the All Ireland championships in some way?
- If the provinces are seeding the All Ireland in some way should it take preference over the league placings?
- Should the league be kept?
- Should the league feed the All Ireland championships in some way?
- Do we want a second tier?
- Do we want a third tier?
- If there is a second tier should the final be played to allow a back door entry to the All Ireland or should the final be played on All Ireland weekend?
- Should lower tier counties be allowed to compete for Sam Maguire or should teams need to achieve promotion to that level like all other GAA competitions?
There's probably more questions like that - but you'd get a genuine feel for what change is genuinely wanted.
If Proposal B is passed I believe it will accelerate the decline of football outside the traditional powers. The provincial championships will become the new pre-season and slowly but surely the gaps between the divisions will increase." I know what you're saying Brianb, basically what the gaa are trying to do is decouple the provincial championships from the allireland and hitch the allireland to the league championship, blending 2 competitions that are good in their own right while killing off the provincials, Ulster will try to keep their championship alive but they'll soon realise that it'll be holding them back so the Ulster championship will go the way of the other 3 provinces and become a warm up competition.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 11/10/2021 12:50:13
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Not sure if this has been posted already but here's the link for the GPA explainer on proposal B
https://vimeo.com/624780772/33f993c1e4
breakin_ball (Cavan) - Posts: 35 - 11/10/2021 16:43:50
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Replying To Whammo86: "They definitely shouldn't" .
Whether they should or shouldn't is a matter of personal preference but do we really think Prop B which could easily see either Tyrone or Mayo (or both) not in the champo next year is a good idea.
Tyrone not having the chance to defend Sam might seem funny to a few Derry or Armagh boys ( & I do see the humourous side of it) but it's hardly the right way to go. And I presume Congress will see it that way also and going by the Examiners piece today we are then back to pre 18' backdoor.
And it can be sorted out next year - after Mayo give Tyrone a good humping in the semi ;-)
timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 11/10/2021 17:13:51
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I wish to confirm -
If we revert to pre-2018 Championship, will it be with limited qualifiers? - that is, a Prov Final 8, with only the 8 highest non-Prov Final teams in Qual Rd 1?
That would be some improvement - less Qual heavy beatings, although still mostly awful Prov pairings (excl Uls, Conn Big 3, Muns Big 2.5).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 11/10/2021 18:51:39
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "All those ideas are too complicated though, we need a simple idea, not that our ideas will be listened to anyway." You may not like it but it's not complicated.
That last idea is quite simple -
2 NFL Divs, with 2 groups of 8 in each.
The top 4 in all 4 groups to KO Rd of 16.
KO pairings based on NFL ranking and reset each Rd based on who has advanced.
Being 4th in a Div 2 group sets up an impossible route to win Sam - but 1st in a Div 1 group should coast to at least the SFs (beating rank 23/24 and 7/8).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 11/10/2021 19:19:14
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Replying To brianb: "Its going to get complicated if everyone gets what they want. That there are a lot of ideas on this thread with the majority of them better than either of the proposals that are on offer.
While there seems to be a chance that Proposal B might pass - if it does I'd feel it is an opportunity lost. I believe it would be better to figure out what type of change everyone wants. Congress could be asked the following questions - with the answers informing the new championship structure:
- Should the provincial championships be kept?
- If kept should they feed the All Ireland championships in some way?
- If the provinces are seeding the All Ireland in some way should it take preference over the league placings?
- Should the league be kept?
- Should the league feed the All Ireland championships in some way?
- Do we want a second tier?
- Do we want a third tier?
- If there is a second tier should the final be played to allow a back door entry to the All Ireland or should the final be played on All Ireland weekend?
- Should lower tier counties be allowed to compete for Sam Maguire or should teams need to achieve promotion to that level like all other GAA competitions?
There's probably more questions like that - but you'd get a genuine feel for what change is genuinely wanted.
If Proposal B is passed I believe it will accelerate the decline of football outside the traditional powers. The provincial championships will become the new pre-season and slowly but surely the gaps between the divisions will increase." Completely agree.
The biggest gap in standards in football is between the top 5/6 & the rest. Proposal B will only increase this. By comparison, there is little difference between the top end of division 4 & divisions 2 & 3.
Proposal B will leave these mid ranking teams in a limbo of too good for the Tailteann Cup but no realistic aim of progressing to the latter stages of the Sam Maguire.
Manners5 (Westmeath) - Posts: 20 - 11/10/2021 19:48:10
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All things considered, the notional tie to Sam for all teams should be via the Prov Championships - then no teams need to be parachuted in from a low league rank.
Back to the 2 divisions, with 2 groups of 8 in each - I think a good design could be the top 4 in each Div 1 group to 8-team Tier 1 (Sam) Championship playoffs (run on the 2021 Liam McCarthy Cup 'Last 8' format (crossover 1v2, 2 winners to SF, 2 losers to QFs; and 3v4 KO, 2 winners to QFs).
The top 4 in each Div 2 group could advance to a strong 'Mid 16' Tier 2 Championship, merging with the bottom 4 from each Div 1 group. Here, 1st Rd pairings could be 5v2 & 6v1 (double chance) and 7v4 & 8v3 (KO, winners to Last 12).
8 Tier 2 QF teams earn or retain Div 1 status and eligibility for Tier 1 Championship for the following year (in addition to the KO Prov Championship eligibility for all, like now).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2590 - 11/10/2021 21:28:38
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Replying To timmyhogan: ".
Whether they should or shouldn't is a matter of personal preference but do we really think Prop B which could easily see either Tyrone or Mayo (or both) not in the champo next year is a good idea.
Tyrone not having the chance to defend Sam might seem funny to a few Derry or Armagh boys ( & I do see the humourous side of it) but it's hardly the right way to go. And I presume Congress will see it that way also and going by the Examiners piece today we are then back to pre 18' backdoor.
And it can be sorted out next year - after Mayo give Tyrone a good humping in the semi ;-)" Tyrone would have gotten the chance to defend Sam though by performing well in the league section.
This is a flaw in the system, it's not clearly defining to people that the league section is the championship.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 12/10/2021 10:25:55
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Replying To timmyhogan: ".
Whether they should or shouldn't is a matter of personal preference but do we really think Prop B which could easily see either Tyrone or Mayo (or both) not in the champo next year is a good idea.
Tyrone not having the chance to defend Sam might seem funny to a few Derry or Armagh boys ( & I do see the humourous side of it) but it's hardly the right way to go. And I presume Congress will see it that way also and going by the Examiners piece today we are then back to pre 18' backdoor.
And it can be sorted out next year - after Mayo give Tyrone a good humping in the semi ;-)" Seems about right and fair. How many chances do lower teams or any team for that matter want? Provincials plus back door . I seen Carlow a few years ago doing well and unlucky not to go further. Derry the same. Backdoor is open draw so teams can get a run in it.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2014 - 12/10/2021 11:52:34
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Replying To Whammo86: "Tyrone would have gotten the chance to defend Sam though by performing well in the league section.
This is a flaw in the system, it's not clearly defining to people that the league section is the championship." .
Ah we all know that it can be worded that way - that the league is the opening phase of the Champo.
Doesn't really alter the issue - i.e. that the teams that weren't good enough in 21' to survive in (or even get promoted to) Div 1 are more or less guaranteed places in the KO phase over 3 of the top 8 teams in the country.
Armagh & Monaghan's reward for dumping Galway & Roscommon into Div 2 this year is that the latter are more likely to make the KO phase of championship 22'.
Kildare made it up by beating Meath , advantage Meath in 22 champo.
8 in 5 wont go.
timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 12/10/2021 12:10:20
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Although Tyrone or Kerry say (joint 4th in Div 1 but 6th on points diff for example) not being able to contest Sam in the KO phase is kinda funny if you like that sort of thing!
Actually go for it - fairness be damned - it would make the League very exciting!
timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 12/10/2021 12:50:49
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Replying To timmyhogan: "Although Tyrone or Kerry say (joint 4th in Div 1 but 6th on points diff for example) not being able to contest Sam in the KO phase is kinda funny if you like that sort of thing!
Actually go for it - fairness be damned - it would make the League very exciting!" There's not a proposal on this planet that wont have a flaw!
Doing nothing would be the biggest flaw in town. I'd say there are more post on this forum giving out about our Championship structure than the rest put together. May be, just may be - change might be worth trying?
Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 12/10/2021 13:28:47
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For me change is important, i wouldn't be to exact on it structure wise, it can be tweaked, reworked in the coming years etc - the most important part is to set the precedent and to break the link to safety and traditionalism. The game structure in broken and unjust in its present form, it largely lacs entertainment for about 80% of the competition.
For me its less about structure and more a breaking of the mindset of familiarity, safety and the fear of change.
Its frankly wrong players can be training for five months, play one game and the not play again for an other five months, not to mention inhibiting players developing to their potentially as a result - that is the spirit of the organization and what we are all about after all - or should be.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 12/10/2021 13:41:47
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Replying To Ban: "There's not a proposal on this planet that wont have a flaw!
Doing nothing would be the biggest flaw in town. I'd say there are more post on this forum giving out about our Championship structure than the rest put together. May be, just may be - change might be worth trying?" Change might be worth trying? Certainly but not change for the sake of change. I believe neither proposal are better than the status quo.
The biggest drawback in the current state is the mismatches that can occur. Proposal B will reduce these but at the expense of a competitive championship for all. The top teams get higher profile games and more exposure inside and outside their counties - everyone else gets less.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 282 - 12/10/2021 13:48:54
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Replying To Ban: "There's not a proposal on this planet that wont have a flaw!
Doing nothing would be the biggest flaw in town. I'd say there are more post on this forum giving out about our Championship structure than the rest put together. May be, just may be - change might be worth trying?" .
Hey I'm on board - my last scenario is even better than Kerry losing to Cork who then lose to Tipp for example.
But if we want to be serious what was wrong with the pre18' backdoor system - That could be fixed by tinkering??
timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 12/10/2021 13:53:13
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Replying To brianb: "Change might be worth trying? Certainly but not change for the sake of change. I believe neither proposal are better than the status quo.
The biggest drawback in the current state is the mismatches that can occur. Proposal B will reduce these but at the expense of a competitive championship for all. The top teams get higher profile games and more exposure inside and outside their counties - everyone else gets less." I agree, whats on the table at the moment it's best to stick with the status quo for another year or two. No super 8s is one plus point, should never have been brought in.
Proposal B that the GPA and folks on OTB are mad keen for can be tweaked and flaws ironed out for Congress in 2023.
Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 3347 - 12/10/2021 13:59:05
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Replying To timmyhogan: ".
Ah we all know that it can be worded that way - that the league is the opening phase of the Champo.
Doesn't really alter the issue - i.e. that the teams that weren't good enough in 21' to survive in (or even get promoted to) Div 1 are more or less guaranteed places in the KO phase over 3 of the top 8 teams in the country.
Armagh & Monaghan's reward for dumping Galway & Roscommon into Div 2 this year is that the latter are more likely to make the KO phase of championship 22'.
Kildare made it up by beating Meath , advantage Meath in 22 champo.
8 in 5 wont go." Yeah look I hear you.
I think they should just have 2 championships both with 2 sections of 8 leading to 4, 6 or 8 team playoffs and then promotion and relegation between tiers.
If this was the tweak you'd have a good program of games for all teams and a fair method for teams reaching the AI playoffs.
I hate that lower level teams get a route back in, it's not equitable.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 12/10/2021 14:07:29
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I don't think most posters are understanding how unstructured the current system is and how little scope for improvement there is for lower level teams. Kerry and Dublin will play championship until august.
Most county teams will be back playing club by July - with no matches or collective training in the summer months - how would any team improve with so few games? There is massive investment in teams these days and 1-2 days out per year aren't going to make the effort worthwhile. It's only 2 years since Derry were considering pulling out of senior football as they couldn't fund it at a serious level.
There's serious interest in football and serious effort goes into it but the competitions and matches available don't match up.
The tailteann cup is going to happen anyway and the link breakage to the provincial championship happened with the qualifiers.
Proposal B- [url=] https://vimeo.com/624780772/33f993c1e4
breakin_ball (Cavan) - Posts: 35 - 12/10/2021 14:15:03
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Replying To brianb: "Change might be worth trying? Certainly but not change for the sake of change. I believe neither proposal are better than the status quo.
The biggest drawback in the current state is the mismatches that can occur. Proposal B will reduce these but at the expense of a competitive championship for all. The top teams get higher profile games and more exposure inside and outside their counties - everyone else gets less." Top teams get most exposure in every sport on the planet. You want exposure, improve yourself. How do you do that, play at your level, master it, go onto the next level, master that and so on..
Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 12/10/2021 15:49:09
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