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Replying To Saynothing: " Replying To omahant: "There has been much discussion about a Top 16 and Bottom 16 - but I think a Mid-16 would be a cracker !
I'd have it as follows -
Start with Divs 1 & 2, each with 2 groups of 8 (7 games per team).
Div 1 top 4 in each group to Aussie AFL-style playoffs for Sam (best 8 can now advance, unlike Proposal B).
1st Rd pairings with crossover 1v2 (2 winners to SF, 2 losers to QFs); and 3v4 (2 winners to QFs, 2 losers are out).
Div 2 top 4 in each group similarly advance - BUT -merge with the Div 1 bottom 4 in each group for double-size AFL-style 'Mid 16-team' Tier 2 playoffs.
Teams placed 5th, 6th (Div 1) and 1st, 2nd (Div 2) get the double chance.
Teams reaching KO QF 8 [or SF 4 plus 2 highest placed non SF 4 from both Div 1 and 2 (to give NFL more meaning) earn or retain Div 1 status for the following year. Option - Div 2 bottom 4 in each group either go home or play a stand-alone Tier 3 Shield, if interested (no promotion)."
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 09/10/2021 19:02:26
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Replying To Eastcoastexile: "This is my first time to post on HoganStand. The introduction of a split season led me to come up with the following proposal for Inter-County Football competitions. The basis is to divide the counties into 3 tiers as is the case with club competitions and Inter-county ladies football.
3 separate Junior, Intermediate and Senior Football Championships
11 teams in each giving 10 rounds - 5 home, 5 away.
Team with most points after final rounds are declared League champions.
After League section:
Top 2 to semi-finals
Team 3 has home venue versus Team 6 in Quarter Final
Team 4 has home venue versus Team 5 in Quarter Final
Bottom 2 teams are relegated
Finalists in Intermediate and Junior are promoted
All 3 Finals to be played in Croke Park on the same week-end.
Sam Maguire Cup is presented to the Senior Championship winners.
All-Star awards for all 3 competitions.
14 weekends needed in total to complete the competition
Provincial championships to be run in conjunction with All-Ireland Series.
Semi-finals in provincial venues and final in September in Croke Park
Winners of Junior and Intermediate titles play New York and Boston respectively in September. Then Final and Third Place of American Cup competition.
In the region of 8 months available to all clubs to play their competitions." Simple and totally logical.
You see, it only takes one post !
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 09/10/2021 19:07:22
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Replying To Saynothing: " Replying To omahant: "There has been much discussion about a Top 16 and Bottom 16 - but I think a Mid-16 would be a cracker !
I'd have it as follows -
Start with Divs 1 & 2, each with 2 groups of 8 (7 games per team).
Div 1 top 4 in each group to Aussie AFL-style playoffs for Sam (best 8 can now advance, unlike Proposal B).
1st Rd pairings with crossover 1v2 (2 winners to SF, 2 losers to QFs); and 3v4 (2 winners to QFs, 2 losers are out).
Div 2 top 4 in each group similarly advance - BUT -merge with the Div 1 bottom 4 in each group for double-size AFL-style 'Mid 16-team' Tier 2 playoffs.
Teams placed 5th, 6th (Div 1) and 1st, 2nd (Div 2) get the double chance.
Teams reaching KO QF 8 [or SF 4 plus 2 highest placed non SF 4 from both Div 1 and 2 (to give NFL more meaning) earn or retain Div 1 status for the following year. Option - Div 2 bottom 4 in each group either go home or play a stand-alone Tier 3 Shield, if interested (no promotion)."
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 09/10/2021 19:19:17
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Replying To Rolo2010: " Replying To Saynothing: "[quote=omahant: "There has been much discussion about a Top 16 and Bottom 16 - but I think a Mid-16 would be a cracker !
I'd have it as follows -
Start with Divs 1 & 2, each with 2 groups of 8 (7 games per team).
Div 1 top 4 in each group to Aussie AFL-style playoffs for Sam (best 8 can now advance, unlike Proposal B).
1st Rd pairings with crossover 1v2 (2 winners to SF, 2 losers to QFs); and 3v4 (2 winners to QFs, 2 losers are out).
Div 2 top 4 in each group similarly advance - BUT -merge with the Div 1 bottom 4 in each group for double-size AFL-style 'Mid 16-team' Tier 2 playoffs.
Teams placed 5th, 6th (Div 1) and 1st, 2nd (Div 2) get the double chance.
Teams reaching KO QF 8 [or SF 4 plus 2 highest placed non SF 4 from both Div 1 and 2 (to give NFL more meaning) earn or retain Div 1 status for the following year. Option - Div 2 bottom 4 in each group either go home or play a stand-alone Tier 3 Shield, if interested (no promotion)."
I don't understand why the league has to be this separate WAY less important competition.
Anything I hear indicates that players feel the same.
Honestly there's a lot of very simple solutions that could be used and would make for a season much better than just 2 knockouts of 16.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4223 - 10/10/2021 08:13:06
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Most people I know want change. In Mayo anyway, most couldn't give a monkeys about winning a provincial title. Only SAM matters these days. After 18 months with no supporters allowed Mayo couldn't sell their share of the 5k of tickets for matches with Sligo and Leitrim. Couldn't sell their allocation for the Connacht final either.
It was a similar story in Kerry and Dublin.
Kerry, Dublin, Mayo and Tyrone have been in 5 of the last 10 all ireland semis and are always in the q finals
The reason they are so far ahead of everyone else is they play 7 league matches against high quality opponents and then play another 5-6 championship matches all summer long
They use those matches to develop their squads and their style of play, training 3-4 times a week for 8-9 months of the year - while developing their S&C as they go
Under the current system they will continue to get better and will never go back to the lower standards of 80% of counties
Most other counties play all their football in Feb-May and stop playing and training for 5 months - their panel breaks up, manager gets sacked and they start all over again, while the top teams continue to progress and develop.
90% of counties are trapped in this system and have a massive turnover of players every year because young men are no longer willing to dedicate themselves to a futile cause, like hamsters on a wheel.
To hell with administrators and supporters, they aren't being asked to use up their spare time flogging themselves against a wall for nothing.
Proposal B is the best on offer. Change the championship, give players in all counties games all summer, give them the chance to develop their teams, their style of play and give them something to play for at their own level. Them give them the chance to move to the next level.
Proposal B gives them that. Any flaws can be fixed.
The current system is beyond repair - get rid of it.
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 10/10/2021 08:37:46
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A few tweaks for later improvement of proposal B.
1. Guaranteed back door entry to all ireland for provincial winners should they not qualify for last 16 through any of the other possible ways.
2. Change from Div 1-4 into Div 1 A&B and Div 2 A&B
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 10/10/2021 08:45:07
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "Most people I know want change. In Mayo anyway, most couldn't give a monkeys about winning a provincial title. Only SAM matters these days. After 18 months with no supporters allowed Mayo couldn't sell their share of the 5k of tickets for matches with Sligo and Leitrim. Couldn't sell their allocation for the Connacht final either.
It was a similar story in Kerry and Dublin.
Kerry, Dublin, Mayo and Tyrone have been in 5 of the last 10 all ireland semis and are always in the q finals
The reason they are so far ahead of everyone else is they play 7 league matches against high quality opponents and then play another 5-6 championship matches all summer long
They use those matches to develop their squads and their style of play, training 3-4 times a week for 8-9 months of the year - while developing their S&C as they go
Under the current system they will continue to get better and will never go back to the lower standards of 80% of counties
Most other counties play all their football in Feb-May and stop playing and training for 5 months - their panel breaks up, manager gets sacked and they start all over again, while the top teams continue to progress and develop.
90% of counties are trapped in this system and have a massive turnover of players every year because young men are no longer willing to dedicate themselves to a futile cause, like hamsters on a wheel.
To hell with administrators and supporters, they aren't being asked to use up their spare time flogging themselves against a wall for nothing.
Proposal B is the best on offer. Change the championship, give players in all counties games all summer, give them the chance to develop their teams, their style of play and give them something to play for at their own level. Them give them the chance to move to the next level.
Proposal B gives them that. Any flaws can be fixed.
The current system is beyond repair - get rid of it." Excellent Post.
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 10/10/2021 10:29:39
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "A few tweaks for later improvement of proposal B.
1. Guaranteed back door entry to all ireland for provincial winners should they not qualify for last 16 through any of the other possible ways.
2. Change from Div 1-4 into Div 1 A&B and Div 2 A&B" No!
Weakest teams have some hope of silverware and "Preliminary Quarter Final" place if we keep Division 4.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1417 - 10/10/2021 10:55:39
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "No!
Weakest teams have some hope of silverware and "Preliminary Quarter Final" place if we keep Division 4." As someone from a county who would often be division 4 and be in the mix for winning it when down there, I think we'd get more benefit in the long term from it being 2 divisions of 16.
A place for lower level teams in the playoffs isn't worth the cost to competitive integrity that it brings.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4223 - 10/10/2021 11:28:50
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So under any of the proposals are there any rewards to counties who win a Tier 2 competition or their provisional championship?
Square_B (Leitrim) - Posts: 844 - 10/10/2021 13:09:15
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I think its a good proposal and gives Div 4 teams a chance. But some counties are just badly run; look at the situation in Down regarding their league
Paolo (Down) - Posts: 2 - 10/10/2021 13:28:36
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Replying To Whammo86: "As someone from a county who would often be division 4 and be in the mix for winning it when down there, I think we'd get more benefit in the long term from it being 2 divisions of 16.
A place for lower level teams in the playoffs isn't worth the cost to competitive integrity that it brings." Spot on.
The idea that teams from the top 16 end up playing in the second tier competition is crazy.
Likewise having the winner of Division 4 in the Main competition is equally bad.
The result will be more hammerings and a big disincentive to the the last placings in Division 1 and 2 who will not properly value the second tier competition.
The answer surely is as you suggest.
Division 1 and 2 compete for Sam Maguire and the rest go into the Tailtean Cup
joeman123 (Leitrim) - Posts: 463 - 10/10/2021 13:58:48
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Replying To joeman123: "Spot on.
The idea that teams from the top 16 end up playing in the second tier competition is crazy.
Likewise having the winner of Division 4 in the Main competition is equally bad.
The result will be more hammerings and a big disincentive to the the last placings in Division 1 and 2 who will not properly value the second tier competition.
The answer surely is as you suggest.
Division 1 and 2 compete for Sam Maguire and the rest go into the Tailtean Cup" True, as I said before why should winner of Div 3 and 4 be given pass in front of lower teams in Div 1 and 2. Teams in top leagues earn their right to be there.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2012 - 10/10/2021 14:36:25
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Replying To Saynothing: "True, as I said before why should winner of Div 3 and 4 be given pass in front of lower teams in Div 1 and 2. Teams in top leagues earn their right to be there." They definitely shouldn't
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4223 - 10/10/2021 14:44:13
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "A few tweaks for later improvement of proposal B.
1. Guaranteed back door entry to all ireland for provincial winners should they not qualify for last 16 through any of the other possible ways.
2. Change from Div 1-4 into Div 1 A&B and Div 2 A&B" Well, just to be clear - it is a Last 10.
And yes, absolutely, 2x (2x8) would solve the Proposal B flaw where the top 11 advance except for 6th-8th missing out (like an illogical 'doughnut hole').
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 10/10/2021 16:37:25
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Lads since these proposals were deferred 3 weeks back have the gaa besides getting players from lower leagues to come out and endorse proposal B actually done anything to tweak the proposal?
Is it a case of beating counties into submission? That this is what the gaa want and think is best for everyone so there is no room for maneuver?
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 10/10/2021 17:12:43
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Another poster (Brian b?) had an interesting idea - 3 tier championship after 4x8 league - with Mid Tier for Div 1 6th-8th, D2 4th-6th, D3 1st & D4 1st - Mid Tier Champ earns or keeps D1 berth (D1 teams need to win T2 to avoid the drop).
I still prefer 2x (2x8) though.
I understanding the argument that lower level Champs should not be parachuted into Tier 1 playoffs at expense of higher level teams but it keeps them notionally involved. The tanking motivate could be mitigated by reseeding each KO round (that is, the lowest KO seed need to beat seeds 1, 2, 3 etc consecutively to win Sam - that should end the will to tank.
Say, 2 divs with 2 groups of 8 in each.
Top 4 from each advance to KO Rd of 16 (or with double chance for Div 1 top 4s) with teams seeded 1 to 16 based on league ranking.
1st KO Rd could have Best Div 1 1st v Worst Div 2 4th,
Other D1 1st v Other D2 4th, Best D1 2bd v Worst D2 3rd etc.
Only D2 teams reaching the SFs (variable) and both D2 group winners go up and displace an equal number of lowest D1 teams.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 10/10/2021 17:13:18
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Maybe that SF bar is too high (2 wins versus top 8 teams needed by D2 teams), so take one Div 1 scalp in Rd of 16 to go up (also req'd by group winners)?
And maybe Div 1 top 5s and D2 top 3s (gives D1 top 3s more favourable draw (compared to D1 4th v D1 5th)?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 10/10/2021 18:30:17
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Replying To omahant: "Another poster (Brian b?) had an interesting idea - 3 tier championship after 4x8 league - with Mid Tier for Div 1 6th-8th, D2 4th-6th, D3 1st & D4 1st - Mid Tier Champ earns or keeps D1 berth (D1 teams need to win T2 to avoid the drop).
I still prefer 2x (2x8) though.
I understanding the argument that lower level Champs should not be parachuted into Tier 1 playoffs at expense of higher level teams but it keeps them notionally involved. The tanking motivate could be mitigated by reseeding each KO round (that is, the lowest KO seed need to beat seeds 1, 2, 3 etc consecutively to win Sam - that should end the will to tank.
Say, 2 divs with 2 groups of 8 in each.
Top 4 from each advance to KO Rd of 16 (or with double chance for Div 1 top 4s) with teams seeded 1 to 16 based on league ranking.
1st KO Rd could have Best Div 1 1st v Worst Div 2 4th,
Other D1 1st v Other D2 4th, Best D1 2bd v Worst D2 3rd etc.
Only D2 teams reaching the SFs (variable) and both D2 group winners go up and displace an equal number of lowest D1 teams." All those ideas are too complicated though, we need a simple idea, not that our ideas will be listened to anyway.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 10/10/2021 21:10:25
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "All those ideas are too complicated though, we need a simple idea, not that our ideas will be listened to anyway." Its going to get complicated if everyone gets what they want. That there are a lot of ideas on this thread with the majority of them better than either of the proposals that are on offer.
While there seems to be a chance that Proposal B might pass - if it does I'd feel it is an opportunity lost. I believe it would be better to figure out what type of change everyone wants. Congress could be asked the following questions - with the answers informing the new championship structure:
- Should the provincial championships be kept?
- If kept should they feed the All Ireland championships in some way?
- If the provinces are seeding the All Ireland in some way should it take preference over the league placings?
- Should the league be kept?
- Should the league feed the All Ireland championships in some way?
- Do we want a second tier?
- Do we want a third tier?
- If there is a second tier should the final be played to allow a back door entry to the All Ireland or should the final be played on All Ireland weekend?
- Should lower tier counties be allowed to compete for Sam Maguire or should teams need to achieve promotion to that level like all other GAA competitions?
There's probably more questions like that - but you'd get a genuine feel for what change is genuinely wanted.
If Proposal B is passed I believe it will accelerate the decline of football outside the traditional powers. The provincial championships will become the new pre-season and slowly but surely the gaps between the divisions will increase.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 11/10/2021 10:26:02
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