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Replying To The_analyser: "They are scheduled to be played in February, March muck weather so its a likely death than to survive.
The B proposal could have 6th 7th best teams not reach the last 8 of the championship. I'm all for underdogs reaching All Ireland series but doing so because they won a poor quality Div 3,4 and beating a 3rd place team in Div 2 is not as hard earned as winning a Provincial title in the height of the summer or a round 4 qualifier." This is an obvious weakness of the proposal and I'm thinking it was purposefully done this way so all Counties still feel they are entering the race for Sam!
The obsession to take part be part of the All-Ireland competition seems to be less important for players and managers of today. I'd imagine that this will be tweaked after a few inevitable mis-matches take place.
Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1467 - 08/10/2021 16:30:07
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Replying To Rebel2020: "Provincial championships are a waste of time. If they are as prestigious and worthwhile as some make out , then they will have to survive as part of proposal B and flourish in their own right. But at present they are on artificial life support by being linked to the All Ireland. They are totally outdated. I can't imagine any other sports competition drawing groups with 11 in one group and 6 etc" You're dead right. Get rid of them in the hurling as well.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6172 - 08/10/2021 17:29:21
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Replying To The_analyser: "They are scheduled to be played in February, March muck weather so its a likely death than to survive.
The B proposal could have 6th 7th best teams not reach the last 8 of the championship. I'm all for underdogs reaching All Ireland series but doing so because they won a poor quality Div 3,4 and beating a 3rd place team in Div 2 is not as hard earned as winning a Provincial title in the height of the summer or a round 4 qualifier." That's a very fair point.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6172 - 08/10/2021 18:01:46
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Replying To Whammo86: " Replying To Pikeman96: "To be fair to Podge he wasn't convinced that lower division teams deserved a shot at Sam. It wasn't a requirement for him, he just wanted games against teams around his own level.
Well, if we take that to be the case, then it's also the case that even one of those arguing most strongly in favour of proposal B isn't convinced by all aspects of it.
As I keep saying, I just can't see it succeeding." Yeah I agree with you. I'd say change is needed but work needs to be done with B to get it palatable. I also don't really like the proposed provincial championships as part of it."
So Derry won Division 3 this year and let's say Limerick won Tier 2. It might look like this.
Kerry v Limerick
Tyrone v Down
Monaghan v Meath
Mayo v Roscommon
Dublin v Derry
Donegal v Cork
Armagh v Clare
Kildare v Galway
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 08/10/2021 18:17:43
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Replying To minorb2012: "I like that idea actually. Playing 2 Rnds of League and then 1 Rnd of Provincial. It's sort of like the English Football System of playing league and cups games.
In order to make that work, the GAA would have to play all Provincial Preliminary Rnd games on the same weekend, all Q-Finals on the same weekend, same for the S-Finals & then all 4 Finals together.
Also, remember that the clubs fought a long time to get the All-Ire. Club Champ to be played in the same calendar year. And we have to respect the split season County/Club.
So for any new restructure to work, the All-Ireland Club Finals have to be played by the 2nd Weekend in December. From there we work back and create a hard dates where provincial councils have to have their club finals played by, hard dates for counties must have their county finals played by and then we can determine when the GAA have to have the All-Ireland played by.
A 2022 season could look like this:
30/01/2022 - NFL Rnd 1
06/02/2022 - NFL Rnd 2
13/02/2022 - Provincial Champ Prelim. Rnd (1 Ulster & 3 Leinster)
20/02/2022 - NFL Rnd 3
27/02/2022 - NFL Rnd 4
06/03/2022 - Provincial Champ Q-Finals (4 Ulster & Leinster, 3 Connacht, 2 Munster)
13/03/2022 - NFL Rnd 5
20/03/2022 - NFL Rnd 6
27/03/2022 - Provincial Champ S-Finals (8 games)
03/04/2022 - NFL Rnd 7
10/04/2022 - NFL Finals
17/04/2022 - Provincial Champ Finals (4 games)
24/04/2022 - Off
01/05/2022 - All-Ire. Group Series Rnd 1
08/05/2022 - All-Ire. Group Series Rnd 2
15/05/2022 - Off
22/05/2022 - All-Ire. Group Series Rnd 3
29/05/2022 - All-Ire. Q-Finals
05/06/2022 - Off
12/06/2022 - All-Ire. S-Finals
19/06/2022 - Off (All-Ire. S-Final Replay if needed)
26/06/2022 - All-Ire. Final
03/07/2022 - (All-Ire. Final Replay if needed)
10/07/2022 - Club Championship begins.
25/09/2022 - County Final Deadline Day. An All-Ireland winning county has 12-13 weeks to complete its Club Championship.
13/11/2022 - Provincial Club Final Deadline Day. Provinces have 7 weeks to complete their Championships.
11/12/2022 - All-Ireland Club Final Day.
18/12/2022 - (All-Ireland Club Final Replay if needed).
I included free weekends to account for hurling.
League Finals settled on the day.
All Inter-County Provincial Games settled on the day.
All Club Provincial Preliminary & Q-Finals settled on the day.
All Provincial Club Semi-Finals have extra time then replay.
All Provincial Club Finals have replay then settled on the day.
All-Ireland Q-Finals (Club & County) settled on the day.
All-Ireland Semi-Finals (Club & County) have extra time then replay.
All-Ireland Finals (Club & County) have replay then settled on the day." We're doing well now, All Ireland final in June. Nonsense.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2250 - 08/10/2021 20:18:25
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Only if they lose all those away matches :)" True but still better than top team in Div 4.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2250 - 08/10/2021 20:20:05
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Replying To Bernardo: "I see niall Morgan has said the system is broken. Does that mean his all ireland medal is a broken all ireland medal?" Hard earned as they came out of Ulster as you would know.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2250 - 08/10/2021 20:22:59
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Replying To Bernardo: "Please no extra games of handball. Alot of games are handball pass. Mayo, Dublin and Tyrone played some good football this year but they also played some handball. I might tune into the all ireland if the new system get the go ahead." Do Monaghan not do hand ball? Was it against Armagh when leading they started the hand passing game and nearly go caught out.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2250 - 08/10/2021 20:27:37
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Replying To The_analyser: "They are scheduled to be played in February, March muck weather so its a likely death than to survive.
The B proposal could have 6th 7th best teams not reach the last 8 of the championship. I'm all for underdogs reaching All Ireland series but doing so because they won a poor quality Div 3,4 and beating a 3rd place team in Div 2 is not as hard earned as winning a Provincial title in the height of the summer or a round 4 qualifier." Niall Morgan had reservations about that too. But then he realised that to finish 6th a team would probably lose 3/4/5 games. The reward for losing so many games is exiting the championship.
The converse, to finish top of Division 3/4 , you have to win most of your games and then you only get to Preliminary quarter final.
Crucially, the GPA have been educating the players. They know the pitfalls. They (vast majority ) want proposal B. Supporters would just get used to it.
And when all is said and done, unless the GPA lobbying of their county boards is very successful, we will end up with the type of championship we had prior to Super 8s (maybe we'll have Super 8s even if time permits) and the same conversation will be had over and over again.
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 08/10/2021 21:19:04
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Replying To bennybunny: "Niall Morgan had reservations about that too. But then he realised that to finish 6th a team would probably lose 3/4/5 games. The reward for losing so many games is exiting the championship.
The converse, to finish top of Division 3/4 , you have to win most of your games and then you only get to Preliminary quarter final.
Crucially, the GPA have been educating the players. They know the pitfalls. They (vast majority ) want proposal B. Supporters would just get used to it.
And when all is said and done, unless the GPA lobbying of their county boards is very successful, we will end up with the type of championship we had prior to Super 8s (maybe we'll have Super 8s even if time permits) and the same conversation will be had over and over again." The GAA doesn't just belong to the players benny. It belongs to the supporters too. Proposal B is deeply flawed. It looks as if we will have no league in it's own right. All we will have is championship with no provincial championship.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6172 - 09/10/2021 11:41:23
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Replying To Greengrass: "The GAA doesn't just belong to the players benny. It belongs to the supporters too. Proposal B is deeply flawed. It looks as if we will have no league in it's own right. All we will have is championship with no provincial championship." I said semilar last week, proposal B just feels a bit weak for me, it's got some good things in it BUT it could do with a bit of tweaking, that's why I suggested they go away and take some more time and come back next year with something better.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 09/10/2021 12:47:49
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Replying To Greengrass: "The GAA doesn't just belong to the players benny. It belongs to the supporters too. Proposal B is deeply flawed. It looks as if we will have no league in it's own right. All we will have is championship with no provincial championship." 100% agree. I am not suggesting that they are the only stakeholder but they are an important stakeholder. There are some very good discussions on OtB with players,administrator, managers at the moment.
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 09/10/2021 13:12:08
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Replying To Saynothing: "We're doing well now, All Ireland final in June. Nonsense." Nonsense? Explain?
The clubs want a split season. So that's what I offered!
6 months of Inter-county. The rest of the year for the clubs.
Have you a better solution?
minorb2012 (Galway) - Posts: 19 - 09/10/2021 14:04:42
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Replying To bennybunny: "100% agree. I am not suggesting that they are the only stakeholder but they are an important stakeholder. There are some very good discussions on OtB with players,administrator, managers at the moment." I heard one during the week Benny with Tommy Rooney. I thought it was entirely one sided. Rooney was disparaging of Brian McAvoy. He described him as being belligerent. He was also disparaging of the provincial championships. Balance is the key. People are very dismissive of the provincial championships. Yes they are flawed and yes there is a lack of balance in relation to the competitiveness of the respective championships. However they have given supporters many magical days. Just ask the supporters of Tipp, Cavan and Roscommon in very recent times. Before the GAA bestowed hugely preferential treatment on Dublin Leinster was a terrific competition. Ask the supporters of Laois, Offaly, Kildare and Westmeath. I remember the day in 2010 when Louth qualified for the Leinster Final. Magical is the word to describe it. Will this new system give us those days? People speak about hammerings. The hurling championship has five tiers. Look at the hammerings handed out in those competitions. Look at the results in this year's finals. Fermanagh hammered Cavan by 15 points in the Lory Meaghar final. Mayo hammered Tyrone by 16 points in the Nicky Rackard. Offaly annihilated Derry in the Christy Ring winning by 23 points. The Joe McDonagh final was competitive but The Liam McCarthy final most certainly was not. It was another annihilation. I fear very much for the Division Three and Division Four teams who qualify for the later stages of the Sam Maguire. We have to have balance. Will the new system give us the type of days we enjoyed under the old system? I would prefer to see a new system that incorporates the provincial championships. When the hurling championships were restructured recently the provincial championships were maintained as a core element of the championship. Remember if the provincial championships are dispensed with then they are gone for good. I would be very sceptical of The GAA's commitment to the Tailteann Cup. It was scheduled for late June and early July before Covid struck. It could be very like the four lower tiers of the hurling championships and end up being played on Saturday afternoons in empty grounds. The players have to be listened and their ideas have to be given serious consideration. I would be willing to trial the proposed system favoured by the players but I feel there are huge holes in the player's presentations and many questions to answer.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6172 - 09/10/2021 14:16:20
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This is my first time to post on HoganStand. The introduction of a split season led me to come up with the following proposal for Inter-County Football competitions. The basis is to divide the counties into 3 tiers as is the case with club competitions and Inter-county ladies football.
3 separate Junior, Intermediate and Senior Football Championships
11 teams in each giving 10 rounds - 5 home, 5 away.
Team with most points after final rounds are declared League champions.
After League section:
Top 2 to semi-finals
Team 3 has home venue versus Team 6 in Quarter Final
Team 4 has home venue versus Team 5 in Quarter Final
Bottom 2 teams are relegated
Finalists in Intermediate and Junior are promoted
All 3 Finals to be played in Croke Park on the same week-end.
Sam Maguire Cup is presented to the Senior Championship winners.
All-Star awards for all 3 competitions.
14 weekends needed in total to complete the competition
Provincial championships to be run in conjunction with All-Ireland Series.
Semi-finals in provincial venues and final in September in Croke Park
Winners of Junior and Intermediate titles play New York and Boston respectively in September. Then Final and Third Place of American Cup competition.
In the region of 8 months available to all clubs to play their competitions.
Eastcoastexile (Kerry) - Posts: 3 - 09/10/2021 16:13:14
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Replying To bennybunny: "Niall Morgan had reservations about that too. But then he realised that to finish 6th a team would probably lose 3/4/5 games. The reward for losing so many games is exiting the championship.
The converse, to finish top of Division 3/4 , you have to win most of your games and then you only get to Preliminary quarter final.
Crucially, the GPA have been educating the players. They know the pitfalls. They (vast majority ) want proposal B. Supporters would just get used to it.
And when all is said and done, unless the GPA lobbying of their county boards is very successful, we will end up with the type of championship we had prior to Super 8s (maybe we'll have Super 8s even if time permits) and the same conversation will be had over and over again." Those who don't learn from history and doomed to repeat it !
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3101 - 09/10/2021 16:33:37
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Replying To Eastcoastexile: "This is my first time to post on HoganStand. The introduction of a split season led me to come up with the following proposal for Inter-County Football competitions. The basis is to divide the counties into 3 tiers as is the case with club competitions and Inter-county ladies football.
3 separate Junior, Intermediate and Senior Football Championships
11 teams in each giving 10 rounds - 5 home, 5 away.
Team with most points after final rounds are declared League champions.
After League section:
Top 2 to semi-finals
Team 3 has home venue versus Team 6 in Quarter Final
Team 4 has home venue versus Team 5 in Quarter Final
Bottom 2 teams are relegated
Finalists in Intermediate and Junior are promoted
All 3 Finals to be played in Croke Park on the same week-end.
Sam Maguire Cup is presented to the Senior Championship winners.
All-Star awards for all 3 competitions.
14 weekends needed in total to complete the competition
Provincial championships to be run in conjunction with All-Ireland Series.
Semi-finals in provincial venues and final in September in Croke Park
Winners of Junior and Intermediate titles play New York and Boston respectively in September. Then Final and Third Place of American Cup competition.
In the region of 8 months available to all clubs to play their competitions." I'd be very in favour of a season along those sorts of lines.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 09/10/2021 16:59:07
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Replying To Whammo86: "I want a system that makes sense and gives teams a decent number of games in the main competition. I'm thoroughly against hand holding, a weaker team shouldn't be jettisoned up to All Ireland playoffs because they've beaten other teams.
I'm just criticising your system because the promotion system you want to employ is badly thought through. There's been plenty of good suggestions.
The very simple season I like would be:
Straight knockout provincials.
If you win your provincials go to the All Ireland tier 1.
Tier 1: 2 groups of 8
Tier 2: 2 groups of 8.
Have promotion from tier 2 based on performance. Either just champions or both finalists or something." There has been much discussion about a Top 16 and Bottom 16 - but I think a Mid-16 would be a cracker !
I'd have it as follows -
Start with Divs 1 & 2, each with 2 groups of 8 (7 games per team).
Div 1 top 4 in each group to Aussie AFL-style playoffs for Sam (best 8 can now advance, unlike Proposal B).
1st Rd pairings with crossover 1v2 (2 winners to SF, 2 losers to QFs); and 3v4 (2 winners to QFs, 2 losers are out).
Div 2 top 4 in each group similarly advance - BUT -merge with the Div 1 bottom 4 in each group for double-size AFL-style 'Mid 16-team' Tier 2 playoffs.
Teams placed 5th, 6th (Div 1) and 1st, 2nd (Div 2) get the double chance.
Teams reaching KO QF 8 [or SF 4 plus 2 highest placed non SF 4 from both Div 1 and 2 (to give NFL more meaning)] earn or retain Div 1 status for the following year.
Option - Div 2 bottom 4 in each group either go home or play a stand-alone Tier 3 Shield, if interested (no promotion).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3101 - 09/10/2021 17:02:48
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Replying To Eastcoastexile: "This is my first time to post on HoganStand. The introduction of a split season led me to come up with the following proposal for Inter-County Football competitions. The basis is to divide the counties into 3 tiers as is the case with club competitions and Inter-county ladies football.
3 separate Junior, Intermediate and Senior Football Championships
11 teams in each giving 10 rounds - 5 home, 5 away.
Team with most points after final rounds are declared League champions.
After League section:
Top 2 to semi-finals
Team 3 has home venue versus Team 6 in Quarter Final
Team 4 has home venue versus Team 5 in Quarter Final
Bottom 2 teams are relegated
Finalists in Intermediate and Junior are promoted
All 3 Finals to be played in Croke Park on the same week-end.
Sam Maguire Cup is presented to the Senior Championship winners.
All-Star awards for all 3 competitions.
14 weekends needed in total to complete the competition
Provincial championships to be run in conjunction with All-Ireland Series.
Semi-finals in provincial venues and final in September in Croke Park
Winners of Junior and Intermediate titles play New York and Boston respectively in September. Then Final and Third Place of American Cup competition.
In the region of 8 months available to all clubs to play their competitions." Interesting proposal.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6172 - 09/10/2021 17:22:39
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Replying To omahant: "There has been much discussion about a Top 16 and Bottom 16 - but I think a Mid-16 would be a cracker !
I'd have it as follows -
Start with Divs 1 & 2, each with 2 groups of 8 (7 games per team).
Div 1 top 4 in each group to Aussie AFL-style playoffs for Sam (best 8 can now advance, unlike Proposal B).
1st Rd pairings with crossover 1v2 (2 winners to SF, 2 losers to QFs); and 3v4 (2 winners to QFs, 2 losers are out).
Div 2 top 4 in each group similarly advance - BUT -merge with the Div 1 bottom 4 in each group for double-size AFL-style 'Mid 16-team' Tier 2 playoffs.
Teams placed 5th, 6th (Div 1) and 1st, 2nd (Div 2) get the double chance.
Teams reaching KO QF 8 [or SF 4 plus 2 highest placed non SF 4 from both Div 1 and 2 (to give NFL more meaning) earn or retain Div 1 status for the following year.
Option - Div 2 bottom 4 in each group either go home or play a stand-alone Tier 3 Shield, if interested (no promotion)."]Why the F are so many people on about AFL style and Premiership style, Tier this and that. Top 16 play for Sam bottom 16 play for whatever or keep the qualifiers.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2250 - 09/10/2021 17:56:08
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