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Upcoming Special Congress

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Replying To brianb:  "You're right. Every county wants a chance at the Sam Maguire (at lease notionally) at the start of the year.

This can be done by allowing the provincial winners into the knockout stages.

Letting a Division 3 & 4 team in at the expense of the 6th team in Division 1 is a mistake. Perhaps if you had the top 4 in Division 1 as quarter finalists with the bottom 4 playing off against the top 2 in Division 2 & the top teams in Division 3 & 4 it might make a little bit sense but it would still be a bad solution to allowing every team have a chance at Sam Maguire compared to guaranteed spots for provincial champions."
Doesn't seem right that teams getting their game in order and doing well to maybe finish 6th in Div 1 or 2 won't qualify whereas the top teams in a lower Div can..

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2250 - 07/10/2021 19:22:55    2384821

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think yours would make for an excellent season. Much better than anything brought to congress.

To avoid the gap problem you could play league and provincials in parallel.

2 rounds of league, 1 round of provincials, 1 week break. Middle of Feb to Middle of May and then 9 weeks to late July to finish the season.

Every team would have a minimum of 11 games and playing right up to mid June. It really does tick a lot of boxes."
I like that idea actually. Playing 2 Rnds of League and then 1 Rnd of Provincial. It's sort of like the English Football System of playing league and cups games.
In order to make that work, the GAA would have to play all Provincial Preliminary Rnd games on the same weekend, all Q-Finals on the same weekend, same for the S-Finals & then all 4 Finals together.
Also, remember that the clubs fought a long time to get the All-Ire. Club Champ to be played in the same calendar year. And we have to respect the split season County/Club.
So for any new restructure to work, the All-Ireland Club Finals have to be played by the 2nd Weekend in December. From there we work back and create a hard dates where provincial councils have to have their club finals played by, hard dates for counties must have their county finals played by and then we can determine when the GAA have to have the All-Ireland played by.

A 2022 season could look like this:

30/01/2022 - NFL Rnd 1
06/02/2022 - NFL Rnd 2
13/02/2022 - Provincial Champ Prelim. Rnd (1 Ulster & 3 Leinster)
20/02/2022 - NFL Rnd 3
27/02/2022 - NFL Rnd 4
06/03/2022 - Provincial Champ Q-Finals (4 Ulster & Leinster, 3 Connacht, 2 Munster)
13/03/2022 - NFL Rnd 5
20/03/2022 - NFL Rnd 6
27/03/2022 - Provincial Champ S-Finals (8 games)
03/04/2022 - NFL Rnd 7
10/04/2022 - NFL Finals
17/04/2022 - Provincial Champ Finals (4 games)
24/04/2022 - Off
01/05/2022 - All-Ire. Group Series Rnd 1
08/05/2022 - All-Ire. Group Series Rnd 2
15/05/2022 - Off
22/05/2022 - All-Ire. Group Series Rnd 3
29/05/2022 - All-Ire. Q-Finals
05/06/2022 - Off
12/06/2022 - All-Ire. S-Finals
19/06/2022 - Off (All-Ire. S-Final Replay if needed)
26/06/2022 - All-Ire. Final
03/07/2022 - (All-Ire. Final Replay if needed)
10/07/2022 - Club Championship begins.

25/09/2022 - County Final Deadline Day. An All-Ireland winning county has 12-13 weeks to complete its Club Championship.

13/11/2022 - Provincial Club Final Deadline Day. Provinces have 7 weeks to complete their Championships.

11/12/2022 - All-Ireland Club Final Day.
18/12/2022 - (All-Ireland Club Final Replay if needed).

I included free weekends to account for hurling.
League Finals settled on the day.
All Inter-County Provincial Games settled on the day.
All Club Provincial Preliminary & Q-Finals settled on the day.
All Provincial Club Semi-Finals have extra time then replay.
All Provincial Club Finals have replay then settled on the day.
All-Ireland Q-Finals (Club & County) settled on the day.
All-Ireland Semi-Finals (Club & County) have extra time then replay.
All-Ireland Finals (Club & County) have replay then settled on the day.

minorb2012 (Galway) - Posts: 19 - 07/10/2021 19:24:13    2384822

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With a minimum of 11 matches played will be a long intercounty season. I hear the arguement that clubs guaranteed 5 matches during the summer months.
I take it that the intercounty season will run from february to july/august. Where does that leave the club player. The last two seasons were successful whereby club players could plan for a meaningful season.

What will be the new intercounty calendar and where does it leave the club player

B&G (Longford) - Posts: 370 - 07/10/2021 19:24:54    2384823

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A lot of posters seem to think that a team can decide where they want to finish and then bring it to fruition...what about the other teams will they just bend over and make it happen for them....of course not!

ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 873 - 07/10/2021 19:25:32    2384824

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I said a few pages back that I reckon all this talk is moot anyway, because word on the grapevine is there simply won't be enough support at Congress for either Proposal A or B.

And any talk here about other suggestions outside of A, B or C is definitely moot, because it simply can't happen. One of the three up for discussion has to be chosen.

Looks like it'll be a case in the end of even if it's broken, don't fix it.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2725 - 07/10/2021 19:31:02    2384826

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "But then you'd just have even more of the same problem. A county would be better off finishing 3rd or 4th in Division 2 than they would be by finishing 5th in Division 1. And so on down through the divisions. Carlow or Wexford, for example, would be better off finishing 4th in Division 4 than they would by finishing 5th or 6th in Division 3.

No real incentive to move up there at all.

The biggest incentive to move up divisions would be if only Divisions 1 and 2 teams go through to Sam Maguire Cup, and others go into Tailteann Cup. But there's outright hostility to that idea, to say the least...despite the fact that even under Proposal B, 14 out of 16 Division 3 and 4 teams wouldn't go through to Sam Maguire anyway."
Have you had a chance to listen or read why players and managers are in preference of a change and in particular, Proposal B?

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1467 - 07/10/2021 20:04:32    2384832

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Precisely, add in 3 going down out of Division 2 with 2 going up out of Div 3 plus winners of B championship. Good incentive for both Div 3 and 4."
I see niall Morgan has said the system is broken. Does that mean his all ireland medal is a broken all ireland medal?

Bernardo (Monaghan) - Posts: 607 - 07/10/2021 21:04:51    2384841

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Replying To brianb:  "You're right. Every county wants a chance at the Sam Maguire (at lease notionally) at the start of the year.

This can be done by allowing the provincial winners into the knockout stages.

Letting a Division 3 & 4 team in at the expense of the 6th team in Division 1 is a mistake. Perhaps if you had the top 4 in Division 1 as quarter finalists with the bottom 4 playing off against the top 2 in Division 2 & the top teams in Division 3 & 4 it might make a little bit sense but it would still be a bad solution to allowing every team have a chance at Sam Maguire compared to guaranteed spots for provincial champions."
Look at the last 2 years. .
You could be in the top 6 teams in the country (Donegal this year, Kerry last year as just 2 examples) and not make the all ireland series.

No point in rewarding a team for having a poor spring, whatever level they're playing at.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5238 - 07/10/2021 21:53:07    2384843

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Replying To carlovian:  "I must say I think the B proposal can only improve the Championship all round. But it needs to give an incentive to every team to move up the divisions. I'd suggest that the Championship places are given to the top 4,3,2 and 1 down through the divisions. As it is, it certainly smacks of divisions 3 and 4 just being an afterthought with the same prize on offer for both."
Just looking back here now and realise I seem to have misunderstood your suggestion. I first thought you meant the top four from each Division should go through. I now realise you seem to have meant the top four in Div. 1, top three in Div. 2, top two in Div. 3 and top one in Div. 4.

There remains the issue though that if you're unlikely to ever be a top 4 team, you'd be better off hanging around Div. 2 with the aim of finishing third each year and going through as 11th best in the country (while 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th best are eliminated), instead of aiming for Div. 1 and having to finish in the top 4.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2725 - 08/10/2021 08:25:37    2384848

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Replying To brianb:  "You're right. Every county wants a chance at the Sam Maguire (at lease notionally) at the start of the year.

This can be done by allowing the provincial winners into the knockout stages.

Letting a Division 3 & 4 team in at the expense of the 6th team in Division 1 is a mistake. Perhaps if you had the top 4 in Division 1 as quarter finalists with the bottom 4 playing off against the top 2 in Division 2 & the top teams in Division 3 & 4 it might make a little bit sense but it would still be a bad solution to allowing every team have a chance at Sam Maguire compared to guaranteed spots for provincial champions."
Please no extra games of handball. Alot of games are handball pass. Mayo, Dublin and Tyrone played some good football this year but they also played some handball. I might tune into the all ireland if the new system get the go ahead.

Bernardo (Monaghan) - Posts: 607 - 08/10/2021 08:40:07    2384852

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Look at the last 2 years. .
You could be in the top 6 teams in the country (Donegal this year, Kerry last year as just 2 examples) and not make the all ireland series.

No point in rewarding a team for having a poor spring, whatever level they're playing at."
You're right - and these were all knocked out in knock out games. I believe every county should have at least 1 knock out cup game. I think the place for these are the provincial championships. This would let every Division 3 / 4 team have a chance (at long odds) at winning the All Ireland at the start of every year.

Add to the 4 provincial champions the next 4 / 6 / 8 teams in the league and we'd have the best teams in the country playing top quality knock out games in the peak summer months.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 401 - 08/10/2021 10:04:21    2384861

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Replying To B&G:  "With a minimum of 11 matches played will be a long intercounty season. I hear the arguement that clubs guaranteed 5 matches during the summer months.
I take it that the intercounty season will run from february to july/august. Where does that leave the club player. The last two seasons were successful whereby club players could plan for a meaningful season.

What will be the new intercounty calendar and where does it leave the club player"
I think the idea would be that club leagues are played during the intercounty season with no county players.

Club championship is played afterwards in August, September and even into October. Provincial and AI club end of October to maybe the start of January.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 08/10/2021 10:08:19    2384863

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Replying To Ban:  "Have you had a chance to listen or read why players and managers are in preference of a change and in particular, Proposal B?"
Indeed I have, and thank you very much for asking. :)

It was only after reading those things in detail yesterday that I got involved here again at all. I've largely stayed out of this discussion because as stated above, I think it'll turn out to be moot anyway, because I don't think either A or B will find enough support to be approved.

And this morning, I've read the GPA's response to the five main arguments against Proposal B. I'm still not convinced by them. And in particular, I still think it would be nonsensical to eliminate the 6th, 7th and 8th placed teams on league standings, and allow through the ones that finish in 17th and 25th.

Podge Collins was the one who addressed that in the piece I read this morning: You're going to have seven chances in Division 1 to get through to that top five and as far as I'm concerned if you're not in that top five in a given year, you're not good enough to win the All-Ireland.

His argument has some merit if taken in isolation, but by using the very same logic - if you're not good enough to even be within an ass's roar of Division 1 (i.e. you're looking for the qualification spot that comes with finishing top of Div. 4), then you're hardly good enough to win the All-Ireland either.

And you'd almost certainly have nowhere near the chance as a team that was maybe only edged down into 6th place in Div. 1 on score difference. So why should you go through at their expense?

I wouldn't argue that all is rosy in the garden and that no change is needed. But again, I reckon there are too many flaws in both A and B for either to be approved, and so we'll be back to what we're used to.....at least until a better proposal comes along sometime.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2725 - 08/10/2021 10:12:33    2384865

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Replying To ONdeDITCH:  "A lot of posters seem to think that a team can decide where they want to finish and then bring it to fruition...what about the other teams will they just bend over and make it happen for them....of course not!"
Situations where a team can be incentivised not to win is a bad system.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 08/10/2021 11:47:26    2384881

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Indeed I have, and thank you very much for asking. :)

It was only after reading those things in detail yesterday that I got involved here again at all. I've largely stayed out of this discussion because as stated above, I think it'll turn out to be moot anyway, because I don't think either A or B will find enough support to be approved.

And this morning, I've read the GPA's response to the five main arguments against Proposal B. I'm still not convinced by them. And in particular, I still think it would be nonsensical to eliminate the 6th, 7th and 8th placed teams on league standings, and allow through the ones that finish in 17th and 25th.

Podge Collins was the one who addressed that in the piece I read this morning: You're going to have seven chances in Division 1 to get through to that top five and as far as I'm concerned if you're not in that top five in a given year, you're not good enough to win the All-Ireland.

His argument has some merit if taken in isolation, but by using the very same logic - if you're not good enough to even be within an ass's roar of Division 1 (i.e. you're looking for the qualification spot that comes with finishing top of Div. 4), then you're hardly good enough to win the All-Ireland either.

And you'd almost certainly have nowhere near the chance as a team that was maybe only edged down into 6th place in Div. 1 on score difference. So why should you go through at their expense?

I wouldn't argue that all is rosy in the garden and that no change is needed. But again, I reckon there are too many flaws in both A and B for either to be approved, and so we'll be back to what we're used to.....at least until a better proposal comes along sometime."
To be fair to Podge he wasn't convinced that lower division teams deserved a shot at Sam. It wasn't a requirement for him, he just wanted games against teams around his own level.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 08/10/2021 12:09:00    2384887

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To be fair to Podge he wasn't convinced that lower division teams deserved a shot at Sam. It wasn't a requirement for him, he just wanted games against teams around his own level.

Well, if we take that to be the case, then it's also the case that even one of those arguing most strongly in favour of proposal B isn't convinced by all aspects of it.

As I keep saying, I just can't see it succeeding.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2725 - 08/10/2021 12:20:01    2384888

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Indeed I have, and thank you very much for asking. :)

It was only after reading those things in detail yesterday that I got involved here again at all. I've largely stayed out of this discussion because as stated above, I think it'll turn out to be moot anyway, because I don't think either A or B will find enough support to be approved.

And this morning, I've read the GPA's response to the five main arguments against Proposal B. I'm still not convinced by them. And in particular, I still think it would be nonsensical to eliminate the 6th, 7th and 8th placed teams on league standings, and allow through the ones that finish in 17th and 25th.

Podge Collins was the one who addressed that in the piece I read this morning: You're going to have seven chances in Division 1 to get through to that top five and as far as I'm concerned if you're not in that top five in a given year, you're not good enough to win the All-Ireland.

His argument has some merit if taken in isolation, but by using the very same logic - if you're not good enough to even be within an ass's roar of Division 1 (i.e. you're looking for the qualification spot that comes with finishing top of Div. 4), then you're hardly good enough to win the All-Ireland either.

And you'd almost certainly have nowhere near the chance as a team that was maybe only edged down into 6th place in Div. 1 on score difference. So why should you go through at their expense?

I wouldn't argue that all is rosy in the garden and that no change is needed. But again, I reckon there are too many flaws in both A and B for either to be approved, and so we'll be back to what we're used to.....at least until a better proposal comes along sometime."
I think that introducing the format in proposal B will be better than what's in place now and with some tweaking, can resolve the problems you have identified.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1467 - 08/10/2021 12:24:09    2384890

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "To be fair to Podge he wasn't convinced that lower division teams deserved a shot at Sam. It wasn't a requirement for him, he just wanted games against teams around his own level.

Well, if we take that to be the case, then it's also the case that even one of those arguing most strongly in favour of proposal B isn't convinced by all aspects of it.

As I keep saying, I just can't see it succeeding."
Yeah I agree with you. I'd say change is needed but work needs to be done with B to get it palatable. I also don't really like the proposed provincial championships as part of it.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 08/10/2021 14:11:58    2384915

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Provincial championships are a waste of time. If they are as prestigious and worthwhile as some make out , then they will have to survive as part of proposal B and flourish in their own right. But at present they are on artificial life support by being linked to the All Ireland. They are totally outdated. I can't imagine any other sports competition drawing groups with 11 in one group and 6 etc

Rebel2020 (Cork) - Posts: 92 - 08/10/2021 14:52:37    2384925

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Replying To Rebel2020:  "Provincial championships are a waste of time. If they are as prestigious and worthwhile as some make out , then they will have to survive as part of proposal B and flourish in their own right. But at present they are on artificial life support by being linked to the All Ireland. They are totally outdated. I can't imagine any other sports competition drawing groups with 11 in one group and 6 etc"
They are scheduled to be played in February, March muck weather so its a likely death than to survive.

The B proposal could have 6th 7th best teams not reach the last 8 of the championship. I'm all for underdogs reaching All Ireland series but doing so because they won a poor quality Div 3,4 and beating a 3rd place team in Div 2 is not as hard earned as winning a Provincial title in the height of the summer or a round 4 qualifier.

The_analyser (Roscommon) - Posts: 3958 - 08/10/2021 15:51:23    2384934

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