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I think Ger Canning and Brolly's individual proposals seem quite interesting and are not too radical.
Canning wrote an article back in July where he spoke of a proposal that he gave to Eugene McGee in 2012 and he seemed to like it. However, it never made it to congress. Now in fairness, Dublin had just won their first All-Ireland (2011) in 16 years and nobody was talking of splitting them in two or their financials just yet! So maybe that's why this never got traction.
But this is the basic layout of Canning's League-Linked Championship Proposal.
(a) NFL - Mid Jan - Late March with League Finals contested (11-12 weeks).
(b) Provincial Championships - April - Early May. A bit of a tight squeeze but manageable if settled on the day.
(c) All-Ireland Series - Mid May - End July.
16 Teams for Sam Maguire as follows:
4 Provincial Winners (guaranteed 2 Home games in All-Ire Series).
Top 12 Teams from NFL who did not win Provincial Champs.
Bottom 2 Teams in Div 2 are replaced by Top 2 in Div 3 for ranking purposes.
All Div 1 are guaranteed All-Ire spots (including the 2 relegated from Div 1).
4 Groups of 4 Teams with 1 Provincial Champ per Group and the other 12 teams randomly selected to a group.
Top 2 in each group advance to All-Ire Q-Finals and so on so forth.
16 remaining teams enter Tailteann Cup (or maybe called it something else).
This competition is to be run parallel to Sam Maguire and Final played as curtain raiser.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/0719/1236004-canning-football-summer-can-benefit-from-league-link/
Canning admits their are possible flaws and doesn't pretend that his proposal is perfect. It's just his opinion.
Brolly's proposal is similar but with a tweak.
(a) NFL - Run off as normal. 4 Divisions of 8 Teams.
(b) Provincial Championships run off as normal.
(c) At the conclusion of the Provincial Championships:
Top 6 Teams for Div 1 & Top 2 from Div 2 make up the Top 8 seeds (1-8).
7th & 8th from Div.1 & 3rd from Div 2 along with Tier 2 Championship winner from previous year make up Seeds 9-12.
Provincial Winners make up seeds 13-16, unless they've already qualified through the NFL, in which case the next best NFL ranked team goes in.
Top 8 v Bottom 8 with 1st seed playing 16th, 2nd playing 15th etc.
Straight Knockout All-Ireland Series with a Rnd 1, Q-Finals, S-Finals, Final.
Tier 2 Championship run off the same with seeding.
https://punditarena.com/gaa/gaelic-football/pearse-corcoran/joe-brolly-lays-out-a-compelling-alternative-to-the-championship-structure/
Both proposal have pro's and cons.
Both create a link between League & Championship.
Canning's offers the chance for Div 3 Teams to compete for the Sam Maguire.
Brolly's offers that chance to the winner of the Tier 2 Competition however.
Both proposal's retain the Provincial structures so they are less radical in that way.
Winning the provincial championship still means something.
Canning's offers more of a chance for a team to win the All-Ire with the group games and a chance to recover from a loss. Brolly's is more ruthless with the straight knockout approach but he's holding to a more old-school championship format but offering something new as well.
In my opinion, I'd go for Canning's as it's similar to what was passed before (Super 8's) and the GAA always want games. He also offers a clear calendar and changes to U17 Championship as well.
Brolly's proposal doesn't help the Div 3 teams.
Canning's proposal makes the Div 3 battle exciting for those competing and Div 2 becomes a scary place to be.
I don't know why Canning's isn't up for debate at least.
And we all know that Brolly will get no support from Croke Park so I'm not surprised there.
minorb2012 (Galway) - Posts: 19 - 05/10/2021 16:42:54
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I wrote above about Ger Canning's and Joe Brolly's proposals. If I was asked to propose one I'd combine the 2 into the following:
(a) NFL - run off as normal. 4 Divisions of 8 Teams. Single round-robin with league finals (11-12 weeks).
(b) Provincial Championships - run off as normal.
(c) All-Ireland Series - 4 Groups of 4 Teams.
4 Provincial Winners Tops Seeds (1-4).
Next 4 best NFL Teams 2nd Seeds (5-8).
Next 4 best NFL Teams 3rd Seeds (9-12).
Next 3 best NFL Teams* & Previous Year's Tier 2 Winner# (13-16).
*The Top 2 in Div 3 guaranteed a place in the All-Ire Series.
#Obviously for the 1st year there won't be a previous Tier 2 Winner so it will be based of NFL rankings.
All groups having a 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th seed.
Provincial winners guaranteed 2 home games.
Top 2 advance to Q-Finals, so on so forth.
Tier 2 Championship run off the same as above with seeding.
However, New York will play the lowest ranked team in NFL in a play-off to be the 16th team in Tier 2.
Both All-Ireland Comps and Provincial Comps should follow this criteria:
Preliminary Rnds, Q-Finals & Tier 2 Play-off settled on the day. 70 mins. 2x10 mins, 2x5 mins. Penalties.
S-Finals: 70 mins. 2x10 mins. Replay. Replays settled on the day.
Finals: 70 mins. Replay. Replay settled on the day.
This proposal is far from perfect and I'm sure there are holes in it.
The Pros:
Retains provincial championships. Winning them allows entry to All-Ireland Series.
Provides a link of League Form to Championship Entry.
Provides the lower ranked teams 3 opportunities to enter All-Ireland Series.
1) Tier 2 Championship.
2) League.
3) Provincial Championships.
I think its important that the Tier 2 Winners be offered the chance to compete in the All-Ireland the following year. It would a great morale booster for the team and county know they can work on things the following season and prepare for the All-Ireland Series and be guaranteed 3 games.
Also, letting New York have a Play-off provides them with a 2nd game which they've been lobbying for a while now.
The Cons:
Not sure whether to play the Provincials before or after the NFL. Both scenarios create gap.
Playing before the League creates a gap for those who lose early.
Playing after creates a gap before All-Ireland for those who lose early.
Depends if the GAA would want to waste bad weather days in February of good summer days in May and June. Up the debate on that one.
Not sure whether to seed 1st & 2nd from Div 2 Higher than 7th & 8th in Div 1. Only a small thing but still.
The proposals A & B being put forward to congress are so radical that I'm surprised they've gone so far.
In Proposal A, redrawing the provinces is a no go for me. Some say its doesn't make sense having a championship based on geography but I don't think its something we should just throw away either.
In Proposal B, see awarding the following teams a All-Ireland berth:
1st-5th Div 1.
1st-3rd Div 2.
1st Div 3.
1st Div 4.
I just don't think that's a competitive solution.
minorb2012 (Galway) - Posts: 19 - 05/10/2021 17:53:52
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Replying To Ban: "One of the biggest reasons for proposing change is that the weaker teams are getting pulverized by the stronger teams in the Championship. Surely if the likes of Kerry, Dublin and Mayo were peaking earlier this would increase the problem?" I'm on about the big teams in 3 provinces not having to peak until the business end of Championship. Surely it would be more level to have open draw 32 with bigger teams having to get ready for first round. Weaker teams can sneak through a couple of rounds and further with a kind draw.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2011 - 05/10/2021 18:26:32
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Replying To Whammo86: " Replying To KingdomBoy1: "[quote=Seanfanbocht: "[quote=KingdomBoy1: "[quote=Ban: "From Off The Ball this morning..
Ulster GAA chief firmly against Proposal B changes to GAA championship
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO_Kbl6qAFg" Ulster says NO."
Haven't seen any reported comments from the other 3 but I'd expect they'd be against Proposal B.
If neither A or B pass we're back to 2017 or 2019 systems.
Most Counties will have 90% of their games before 31st March.
Some will only get 2 more games in April/May.
Very hard to promote football with that sort of a season, especially where Soccer or rugby are strong, have Senior teams etc."]Forgive my math's but even if the 9 Ulster counties say no then the gaa could still get their 60% needed to get the B proposal through, but I suppose the fact that there are 3 different proposals that could split the vote."]Apparently the vote will be proposal A yes or no, if it fails it goes to proposal B. At least the vote doesn't get split between the 2 options, not that proposal A is getting much backing anyway."]Oh fair enough, I can't remember what proposal A was again.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 05/10/2021 18:56:15
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Feargall Logan speaking on the matter this morning on Off The Ball
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY5HThkT01E
Skip to the 21st minute for discussion on the Championship Structure
Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 06/10/2021 09:16:43
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Replying To minorb2012: "I wrote above about Ger Canning's and Joe Brolly's proposals. If I was asked to propose one I'd combine the 2 into the following:
(a) NFL - run off as normal. 4 Divisions of 8 Teams. Single round-robin with league finals (11-12 weeks).
(b) Provincial Championships - run off as normal.
(c) All-Ireland Series - 4 Groups of 4 Teams.
4 Provincial Winners Tops Seeds (1-4).
Next 4 best NFL Teams 2nd Seeds (5-8).
Next 4 best NFL Teams 3rd Seeds (9-12).
Next 3 best NFL Teams* & Previous Year's Tier 2 Winner# (13-16).
*The Top 2 in Div 3 guaranteed a place in the All-Ire Series.
#Obviously for the 1st year there won't be a previous Tier 2 Winner so it will be based of NFL rankings.
All groups having a 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th seed.
Provincial winners guaranteed 2 home games.
Top 2 advance to Q-Finals, so on so forth.
Tier 2 Championship run off the same as above with seeding.
However, New York will play the lowest ranked team in NFL in a play-off to be the 16th team in Tier 2.
Both All-Ireland Comps and Provincial Comps should follow this criteria:
Preliminary Rnds, Q-Finals & Tier 2 Play-off settled on the day. 70 mins. 2x10 mins, 2x5 mins. Penalties.
S-Finals: 70 mins. 2x10 mins. Replay. Replays settled on the day.
Finals: 70 mins. Replay. Replay settled on the day.
This proposal is far from perfect and I'm sure there are holes in it.
The Pros:
Retains provincial championships. Winning them allows entry to All-Ireland Series.
Provides a link of League Form to Championship Entry.
Provides the lower ranked teams 3 opportunities to enter All-Ireland Series.
1) Tier 2 Championship.
2) League.
3) Provincial Championships.
I think its important that the Tier 2 Winners be offered the chance to compete in the All-Ireland the following year. It would a great morale booster for the team and county know they can work on things the following season and prepare for the All-Ireland Series and be guaranteed 3 games.
Also, letting New York have a Play-off provides them with a 2nd game which they've been lobbying for a while now.
The Cons:
Not sure whether to play the Provincials before or after the NFL. Both scenarios create gap.
Playing before the League creates a gap for those who lose early.
Playing after creates a gap before All-Ireland for those who lose early.
Depends if the GAA would want to waste bad weather days in February of good summer days in May and June. Up the debate on that one.
Not sure whether to seed 1st & 2nd from Div 2 Higher than 7th & 8th in Div 1. Only a small thing but still.
The proposals A & B being put forward to congress are so radical that I'm surprised they've gone so far.
In Proposal A, redrawing the provinces is a no go for me. Some say its doesn't make sense having a championship based on geography but I don't think its something we should just throw away either.
In Proposal B, see awarding the following teams a All-Ireland berth:
1st-5th Div 1.
1st-3rd Div 2.
1st Div 3.
1st Div 4.
I just don't think that's a competitive solution." I think yours would make for an excellent season. Much better than anything brought to congress.
To avoid the gap problem you could play league and provincials in parallel.
2 rounds of league, 1 round of provincials, 1 week break. Middle of Feb to Middle of May and then 9 weeks to late July to finish the season.
Every team would have a minimum of 11 games and playing right up to mid June. It really does tick a lot of boxes.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4215 - 06/10/2021 10:03:35
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Replying To minorb2012: "I wrote above about Ger Canning's and Joe Brolly's proposals. If I was asked to propose one I'd combine the 2 into the following:
(a) NFL - run off as normal. 4 Divisions of 8 Teams. Single round-robin with league finals (11-12 weeks).
(b) Provincial Championships - run off as normal.
(c) All-Ireland Series - 4 Groups of 4 Teams.
4 Provincial Winners Tops Seeds (1-4).
Next 4 best NFL Teams 2nd Seeds (5-8).
Next 4 best NFL Teams 3rd Seeds (9-12).
Next 3 best NFL Teams* & Previous Year's Tier 2 Winner# (13-16).
*The Top 2 in Div 3 guaranteed a place in the All-Ire Series.
#Obviously for the 1st year there won't be a previous Tier 2 Winner so it will be based of NFL rankings.
All groups having a 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th seed.
Provincial winners guaranteed 2 home games.
Top 2 advance to Q-Finals, so on so forth.
Tier 2 Championship run off the same as above with seeding.
However, New York will play the lowest ranked team in NFL in a play-off to be the 16th team in Tier 2.
Both All-Ireland Comps and Provincial Comps should follow this criteria:
Preliminary Rnds, Q-Finals & Tier 2 Play-off settled on the day. 70 mins. 2x10 mins, 2x5 mins. Penalties.
S-Finals: 70 mins. 2x10 mins. Replay. Replays settled on the day.
Finals: 70 mins. Replay. Replay settled on the day.
This proposal is far from perfect and I'm sure there are holes in it.
The Pros:
Retains provincial championships. Winning them allows entry to All-Ireland Series.
Provides a link of League Form to Championship Entry.
Provides the lower ranked teams 3 opportunities to enter All-Ireland Series.
1) Tier 2 Championship.
2) League.
3) Provincial Championships.
I think its important that the Tier 2 Winners be offered the chance to compete in the All-Ireland the following year. It would a great morale booster for the team and county know they can work on things the following season and prepare for the All-Ireland Series and be guaranteed 3 games.
Also, letting New York have a Play-off provides them with a 2nd game which they've been lobbying for a while now.
The Cons:
Not sure whether to play the Provincials before or after the NFL. Both scenarios create gap.
Playing before the League creates a gap for those who lose early.
Playing after creates a gap before All-Ireland for those who lose early.
Depends if the GAA would want to waste bad weather days in February of good summer days in May and June. Up the debate on that one.
Not sure whether to seed 1st & 2nd from Div 2 Higher than 7th & 8th in Div 1. Only a small thing but still.
The proposals A & B being put forward to congress are so radical that I'm surprised they've gone so far.
In Proposal A, redrawing the provinces is a no go for me. Some say its doesn't make sense having a championship based on geography but I don't think its something we should just throw away either.
In Proposal B, see awarding the following teams a All-Ireland berth:
1st-5th Div 1.
1st-3rd Div 2.
1st Div 3.
1st Div 4.
I just don't think that's a competitive solution." Another poster on here suggested where the both league and province routes provide a way into the All Ireland that they could be played along side each other. I like that idea. This would keep teams playing matches throughout the season with no real dead time.
With both proposals the main drawback is the breaking of the link between the province and the All Ireland. As so many posters show on here this is being considered needlessly. I actually believe that Proposal A is so awful that it was only put there to make proposal B look somewhat attractive.
I hope both proposals are defeated and we can come back next year with a proposal that keeps the provincial tie to the All Ireland and also allows for a properly tiered championship rather than a main competition and a shield competition.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 06/10/2021 10:17:59
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Replying To brianb: "Another poster on here suggested where the both league and province routes provide a way into the All Ireland that they could be played along side each other. I like that idea. This would keep teams playing matches throughout the season with no real dead time.
With both proposals the main drawback is the breaking of the link between the province and the All Ireland. As so many posters show on here this is being considered needlessly. I actually believe that Proposal A is so awful that it was only put there to make proposal B look somewhat attractive.
I hope both proposals are defeated and we can come back next year with a proposal that keeps the provincial tie to the All Ireland and also allows for a properly tiered championship rather than a main competition and a shield competition." Yeah this is my feeling on it.
There's plenty of potential structures in this that could tick most of the boxes and bring the game on. It is so disappointing that what ended up being proposed is very bad.
Both proposals I feel overly fixate over solving the provincials problem. The first one doesn't even understand the main problem with the provincials. The second one looks to decouple them and just seem to be disregarding how that makes their system way less likely to be successful.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4215 - 06/10/2021 11:25:22
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Players and manager vocal on the matter are looking for a Championship that basically resembles something like what the Ladies have. Its also a format successfully rolled out across the Country at club level. The percentage of players looking change is 80%.
The Provincial Councils seem to think they have all the power when it comes to bringing in change. Theres not a hope in hell either proposal will get through in a few weeks. I understand that there situation is far from straight forward but there doesnt seem to be any progressive thinking coming from them.
Can anyone see a situation in the near future where players abstain from participating in the Provinical Championship in protest?
Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 06/10/2021 13:12:12
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Doesn't matter what proposal they come up with, as it stands Leinster and Ulster are at a disadvantage by having to play 5or 6 matches before they make final.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2011 - 06/10/2021 13:23:16
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Doesn't matter what proposal they come up with, as it stands Leinster and Ulster are at a disadvantage by having to play 5or 6 matches before they make final.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2011 - 06/10/2021 13:24:32
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Replying To Saynothing: "Doesn't matter what proposal they come up with, as it stands Leinster and Ulster are at a disadvantage by having to play 5or 6 matches before they make final." That didn't seem to harm Tyrone too much this year. But it is a valid point - I think the sweet spot is to lessen the impact of the provincials rather than eliminate it.
The most unfair aspect of the current championship is that the provincial runners up are into the "last 12". In Connaught and Munster this invariably means a team can win one game and be in the last 12 of the championship hence allowing some teams peak for late in the season.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 06/10/2021 14:27:24
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Replying To Saynothing: "Doesn't matter what proposal they come up with, as it stands Leinster and Ulster are at a disadvantage by having to play 5or 6 matches before they make final." I had an idea that instead of having 4 provinces that we should have 2, keep Ulster as is and amalgamate Munster Connacht and leinster with Kerry Cork and Clare, Galway Mayo and Roscommon, and Meath Kildare and dublin in the other group, that 2 groups of 9, that's 18 teams playing for Sam Maguire, have it in away that religation only happens in the southern group with 2 up from the lower tier being replaced by the 2 lowest ranked in the southern group.
There it is job done nice and simple every1 is happy.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 06/10/2021 14:39:34
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "I had an idea that instead of having 4 provinces that we should have 2, keep Ulster as is and amalgamate Munster Connacht and leinster with Kerry Cork and Clare, Galway Mayo and Roscommon, and Meath Kildare and dublin in the other group, that 2 groups of 9, that's 18 teams playing for Sam Maguire, have it in away that religation only happens in the southern group with 2 up from the lower tier being replaced by the 2 lowest ranked in the southern group.
There it is job done nice and simple every1 is happy." Or play league, keep provincials and then Div1 and 2 teams play for Sam. Div3and 4 play different championship.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2011 - 06/10/2021 15:21:23
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "I had an idea that instead of having 4 provinces that we should have 2, keep Ulster as is and amalgamate Munster Connacht and leinster with Kerry Cork and Clare, Galway Mayo and Roscommon, and Meath Kildare and dublin in the other group, that 2 groups of 9, that's 18 teams playing for Sam Maguire, have it in away that religation only happens in the southern group with 2 up from the lower tier being replaced by the 2 lowest ranked in the southern group.
There it is job done nice and simple every1 is happy." Forgot to mention 3 go down from Div 2 and 2 go up plus the winner of B championship.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2011 - 06/10/2021 15:23:41
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Replying To Saynothing: "Forgot to mention 3 go down from Div 2 and 2 go up plus the winner of B championship." No I wouldn't use the league for championship placings, I'd have the top 2 teams of the B championship promoted to Sam Maguire have a paid holiday for the winner and keep it simple as possible.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 06/10/2021 16:16:29
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "No I wouldn't use the league for championship placings, I'd have the top 2 teams of the B championship promoted to Sam Maguire have a paid holiday for the winner and keep it simple as possible." So what's the main objection to the (B) motion?
We note that the GPA have endorsed it. Do they represent an big enough range of
players to have their opinion taken seriously?
JackMurphy (Cork) - Posts: 30 - 06/10/2021 17:29:27
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Replying To Saynothing: "Forgot to mention 3 go down from Div 2 and 2 go up plus the winner of B championship." Does that not make the B championship a bit meaningless for the 2 teams already promoted from the league.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4215 - 06/10/2021 18:00:15
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Looks to me that Proposal B will get the required 60% of the vote. Pushing Congress back a month has been used to promote it as the best thing since sliced bread and HQ already scraping the FBD, McKenna etc gives a big hint that Provincial championships will become the new pre season competitions. And it doesn't sit well with me at all that Connacht championship that has brought some of my happiest memories following Roscommon is now to become a watered down version competition played in the spring.
On the league format championship here is how things would unfold if it went the same way as the 2020 league finished
Quarter finalists for finishing in the top 5 in Div 1 and Div 2 winners Kerry, Dublin, Galway, Tyrone, Donegal, Roscommon
Final two quarters final spots decided on two play off Armagh 2nd runners up v Limerick Div 4 winners and Kildare 3rd in Div 2 v Cork Div 3 winners.
I can imagine the 6th, 7th, 8th placed teams in Div 1 can't be too happy with such a format and are basically getting punished for playing the strongest of the 4 divisions.
The_analyser (Roscommon) - Posts: 3751 - 06/10/2021 19:27:47
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "No I wouldn't use the league for championship placings, I'd have the top 2 teams of the B championship promoted to Sam Maguire have a paid holiday for the winner and keep it simple as possible." Simple but fairs the way to go. Always looked forward to watching the qualifiers with teams drew against each other that maybe never met before in Championship.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2011 - 06/10/2021 20:35:11
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