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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Ulster is the only decent one of the 4. Time to move on. Or link both Provincials and League to Championship.

Provincials should be played first. League is the best competition for most counties and it is played in rubbish weather."
If provincial are played first will the Ulster counties complain that their championship took too much out of them?

Also on structure 2 its going to be though on teams who'll have 4 away games in div1 meaning teams will have to win their home games, also what incentive is there for teams that win their first 4 games to put out strong teams for the last 3 games?

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 28/09/2021 16:16:11    2383388

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "If provincial are played first will the Ulster counties complain that their championship took too much out of them?

Also on structure 2 its going to be though on teams who'll have 4 away games in div1 meaning teams will have to win their home games, also what incentive is there for teams that win their first 4 games to put out strong teams for the last 3 games?"
Not really as long as provincials have nothing to do with All-Ireland. Some teams might want to concentrate on provincials, others All-Ireland is their gold.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2249 - 28/09/2021 16:51:07    2383398

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Replying To Ban:  "Your proposal guarantees teams 2 matches every year! For some Counties, this will be a reality."
Well 3 if the GAA want to run another cup for teams beat in first round.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2249 - 28/09/2021 16:53:18    2383399

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Ulster is the only decent one of the 4. Time to move on. Or link both Provincials and League to Championship.

Provincials should be played first. League is the best competition for most counties and it is played in rubbish weather."
Well if we do go to this league system for the All Ireland I hope the Donegal county board cop themselves on and play all the home games in Ballybofey,
I can't see the point of busting yourself in the Spring to win an Ulster, the Anglo Celt will end up like the McKenna Cup.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 3094 - 28/09/2021 18:07:11    2383413

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Not really as long as provincials have nothing to do with All-Ireland. Some teams might want to concentrate on provincials, others All-Ireland is their gold."
Ah fair enough, did you get a look at brollys suggested revamp? I like it better than suggestion 2 IMO.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 28/09/2021 19:33:59    2383430

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Replying To Ban:  "Another interesting piece from Off The Ball on the subject - Podge Collins this time..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFpg5_GtobU"
It's interesting that he's not overly keen on the idea of lower division teams playing for Sam. He makes a lot of other good points.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 28/09/2021 20:26:26    2383436

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Your own county is opposed to removing provincials. Paul Rouse made a good point. These counties already play games at their own level and it doesn't bring them on. Even a 2 tier structure will still have unbalanced games. Limerick against Waterford and Westmeath against Laois come to mind. Tipp performed better against Kerry than Clare.

Provincial groups are fine and the best we'll get because a League based format has been soundly rejected by most counties before the vote even happened."
After leagues are wrapped up, what about 8 groups of 4 teams made up of 1 from each Division. 3 games with top 2 going on to All- Ireland . Bottom 2 go into different championship . This way every team is guaranteed 4 matches.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2249 - 28/09/2021 20:34:36    2383437

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "Well if we do go to this league system for the All Ireland I hope the Donegal county board cop themselves on and play all the home games in Ballybofey,
I can't see the point of busting yourself in the Spring to win an Ulster, the Anglo Celt will end up like the McKenna Cup."
So? Provincial format is stale and keeping it is hurting football in a lot of counties. GAA should do what is best for every county not just Ulster.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 28/09/2021 21:16:56    2383445

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "If they go to this league system how will the provincials have relevance anymore? what is the point of playing the Ulster Championship in the Spring when winning it doesn't progress you for a chance at the All ireland?
Sounds like a bloody mess they are proposing."
Provincial championshipswill basically become pre season competitions. Managers will play they extended panelists and the many thousands that currently attend provincial championships games will become hundreds.

Its a mess and I'd hope they revert back to the 2017 format now that Dublin are back in the pack.

Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 3542 - 29/09/2021 13:10:13    2383507

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Replying To Saynothing:  "After leagues are wrapped up, what about 8 groups of 4 teams made up of 1 from each Division. 3 games with top 2 going on to All- Ireland . Bottom 2 go into different championship . This way every team is guaranteed 4 matches."
The feedback coming from those interviews is that teams want to play more championship fixtures at their own level.

I don't see the point in the second tier competition shield style competition. That set up always strikes me as the sort of competition you'd set up for juveniles.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 29/09/2021 13:17:59    2383511

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's interesting that he's not overly keen on the idea of lower division teams playing for Sam. He makes a lot of other good points."
A lot of good points alright but still favors the League based All Ireland format.

I still don't see how eliminating 22 counties from the All Ireland championship without a single knock out game makes sense. It seems its completely hopeless - "you're not going to win - so don't even try".

I want to see more games - not less.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 400 - 29/09/2021 17:09:03    2383569

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Replying To Gaa_lover:  "Provincial championshipswill basically become pre season competitions. Managers will play they extended panelists and the many thousands that currently attend provincial championships games will become hundreds.

Its a mess and I'd hope they revert back to the 2017 format now that Dublin are back in the pack."
That's the point I was making, the Ulster Championship will replace the McKenna Cup as a meaningless pre season competition, apart from trying out new players etc it will be irrelevant.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 3094 - 29/09/2021 20:55:10    2383585

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Replying To brianb:  "A lot of good points alright but still favors the League based All Ireland format.

I still don't see how eliminating 22 counties from the All Ireland championship without a single knock out game makes sense. It seems its completely hopeless - "you're not going to win - so don't even try".

I want to see more games - not less."
I guess it's just that the league is the championship's group stage.

It's why I just think it'd be much better to do that.

2 groups of 8 per tier just makes so much sense to me.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 29/09/2021 21:02:57    2383587

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Replying To brianb:  "A lot of good points alright but still favors the League based All Ireland format.

I still don't see how eliminating 22 counties from the All Ireland championship without a single knock out game makes sense. It seems its completely hopeless - "you're not going to win - so don't even try".

I want to see more games - not less."
Div 1and 2 in first bowl
Div 3 and 4 in second bowl

One from fist bowl plays one from second bowl
Winner gets through to top tier

Games could be played as a bumper weekend all over the country to kick start the champo

16 one off knock out games to decide who plays for Sam and who plays for second tier

Leaves 4 groups of 4 for each competition

3 games per team with top 2 qualifying for knockout quarter final

Good knock out games at start of championship and gud knock out fair at the end

It's a very fair system as well

bernardmessi (Dublin) - Posts: 182 - 29/09/2021 21:49:28    2383592

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More from off the ball this morning..!

Fear, lobbying, and trying to save the Championship | Gaelic Football | GAA on OTB AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey4R1a8ljKA

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1467 - 30/09/2021 09:31:02    2383627

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Replying To bernardmessi:  "Div 1and 2 in first bowl
Div 3 and 4 in second bowl

One from fist bowl plays one from second bowl
Winner gets through to top tier

Games could be played as a bumper weekend all over the country to kick start the champo

16 one off knock out games to decide who plays for Sam and who plays for second tier

Leaves 4 groups of 4 for each competition

3 games per team with top 2 qualifying for knockout quarter final

Good knock out games at start of championship and gud knock out fair at the end

It's a very fair system as well"
Why would players care about the second tier though? It doesn't produce further advancement.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 30/09/2021 09:50:15    2383638

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The main selling point of swapping the provincials & league seems to a more reliable fixture calendar & playing teams of your own level during the Summer.
On the calendar, does the provincials moving to 4 8s not solve this problem? Maybe it requires an extra week for a 1st round to be played in Leinster & Ulster but from that point onwards, you will have 4 provinces of 8 which should be easier to run off along with qualifiers. Using the league to decide what teams move province would alleviate the need for the extra weekend.
On playing teams at your own level, the league format would likely increase the gap between regular division 1 teams & the rest. Clare, a consistent division 2 team for the last 5 years, were unable to get close to Kerry in the championship this year. In the new scenario, division 1 teams have more room for error (& to introduce new players). You could end up with a team winning an All Ireland having lost 3 (even possibly 4) games in the league phase.

Manners5 (Westmeath) - Posts: 20 - 30/09/2021 10:44:23    2383671

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Replying To bernardmessi:  "Div 1and 2 in first bowl
Div 3 and 4 in second bowl

One from fist bowl plays one from second bowl
Winner gets through to top tier

Games could be played as a bumper weekend all over the country to kick start the champo

16 one off knock out games to decide who plays for Sam and who plays for second tier

Leaves 4 groups of 4 for each competition

3 games per team with top 2 qualifying for knockout quarter final

Good knock out games at start of championship and gud knock out fair at the end

It's a very fair system as well"
I think if we're going to go for a second tier it should be a second tier. The prize for winning is promotion to the top tier. The way you become a top tier county by consistent good performance against other tier 2 counties over the year. Similarly you become a tier two county by consistently bad performances against other tier 1 counties over the year.

The ideas of running a shield type competition with nothing really at stake might be good for player development but will never have the same knock-out edge where something meaningful is at stake.

Proposal B would become a lot more palatable to me if you introduce a middle tier competition as well and drop the parachuting of Division 3 & 4 teams into the knockout.

The All Ireland 1/4 finals would be:

Senior - Top 5 in DIv 1 & Top 3 in Div 2
Intermediate - 6/7/8 Div 1 + 4/5/6 Div 2 & 1 Div 3A & Div 3B
Junior - All other teams (last 16)

Then the next years league will have had the usual promotion / relegation but with the 6th place team replaced by the winners of the tier just below.

So Div 1 - Top 5 & Top 2 Div 2 & Intermediate Winner
Div 2 - 6/7/8 Div 1 + 3/4/5 Div 2 & 1 Div 3A & 1 Div 3B + Junior Winner - Intermediate winner
Div 3A & 3B - All other teams

I'd still prefer the provincial champions to get a path into the main competition - it could be done by changing the seeding - e.g. allow any unqualified provincial winners in (via a playoff if necessary) at the expense of 3rd Place team in Div 2 but that could likely lead to uncertainty in the calendar.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 400 - 30/09/2021 10:54:25    2383678

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Replying To brianb:  "I think if we're going to go for a second tier it should be a second tier. The prize for winning is promotion to the top tier. The way you become a top tier county by consistent good performance against other tier 2 counties over the year. Similarly you become a tier two county by consistently bad performances against other tier 1 counties over the year.

The ideas of running a shield type competition with nothing really at stake might be good for player development but will never have the same knock-out edge where something meaningful is at stake.

Proposal B would become a lot more palatable to me if you introduce a middle tier competition as well and drop the parachuting of Division 3 & 4 teams into the knockout.

The All Ireland 1/4 finals would be:

Senior - Top 5 in DIv 1 & Top 3 in Div 2
Intermediate - 6/7/8 Div 1 + 4/5/6 Div 2 & 1 Div 3A & Div 3B
Junior - All other teams (last 16)

Then the next years league will have had the usual promotion / relegation but with the 6th place team replaced by the winners of the tier just below.

So Div 1 - Top 5 & Top 2 Div 2 & Intermediate Winner
Div 2 - 6/7/8 Div 1 + 3/4/5 Div 2 & 1 Div 3A & 1 Div 3B + Junior Winner - Intermediate winner
Div 3A & 3B - All other teams

I'd still prefer the provincial champions to get a path into the main competition - it could be done by changing the seeding - e.g. allow any unqualified provincial winners in (via a playoff if necessary) at the expense of 3rd Place team in Div 2 but that could likely lead to uncertainty in the calendar."
3 grades All Ireland SFC with promotion/relegation.
12 teams Premier Senior in 2 groups of 6
10 teams Senior A in 2 groups of 5
10 teams Senior B in 2 groups of 5.
Keep Provincials as stand alone knock out played before the I series.
Have a warm up Jan/Feb tournament either based on Provinces or random geographic groups.
However as that's not on the Congress agenda...
Proposal B with tweaks....
Top 4 D1 to Qtr Finals, teams 5 and 6 D1, 1 to 4 incl D2 and winners D3 and 4 play a preliminary round.
Tailteann Cup to be limited to teams 2 to 6 incl D3 and teams 2 to 4 incl D4.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2091 - 30/09/2021 11:49:14    2383698

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Replying To Manners5:  "The main selling point of swapping the provincials & league seems to a more reliable fixture calendar & playing teams of your own level during the Summer.
On the calendar, does the provincials moving to 4 8s not solve this problem? Maybe it requires an extra week for a 1st round to be played in Leinster & Ulster but from that point onwards, you will have 4 provinces of 8 which should be easier to run off along with qualifiers. Using the league to decide what teams move province would alleviate the need for the extra weekend.
On playing teams at your own level, the league format would likely increase the gap between regular division 1 teams & the rest. Clare, a consistent division 2 team for the last 5 years, were unable to get close to Kerry in the championship this year. In the new scenario, division 1 teams have more room for error (& to introduce new players). You could end up with a team winning an All Ireland having lost 3 (even possibly 4) games in the league phase."
I think 5 from 8 division 1 teams making the playoffs is too soft of a standard.

I also agree that the 4 division structure is bad for teams development. Is why I'd favour the old NFL style competition of 2 tiers of 2 groups of 8. I think you'd only want 2 or at a push 3 from each section moving forward to the playoffs.

I think the 4 provinces of 8 was only solving the calendar issue and wasn't very good at getting teams playing more matches at their own level. It didn't address quality issues between provinces either. From the sounds of things there's little support for it.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 30/09/2021 12:09:49    2383704

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