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Actually a 3 tier system is needed.
Breffni1969 (Cavan) - Posts: 510 - 06/09/2021 15:13:51 2378247 Link 1 |
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The hammering that were handed out this year in the Championship to weaker teams is nothing new. Breffni1969 (Cavan) - Posts: 510 - 06/09/2021 15:32:13 2378260 Link 2 |
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I am not saying that change is not required; it clearly is but going with a three tier system hasn't worked in hurling and won't work in football unless there is an added incentive(s) involved. If the change involves getting rid of the provincial championship then go with it. I am not against change but it is plain to see in a lot of weaker counties that young players are not willing to dedicate 30-40 hours a week to training and gym work to play in a competition in the back end of nowhere in front of two men and a dog and so they are opting out of county football and concentrating on their club career which is more enjoyable as there isn't the same commitment. And I don't blame them. Now people will say that this is that county's issue but I don't believe it is because if the GAA wants counties to remain competitive then there needs to be a level playing field and proper incentives. Under the proposal for a two tier system, I don't see anything different than existed before which has repeatedly failed because of lack of interest. The GAA scene in both hurling and football (below the top teams) is being slowly suffocated. Attendance at championship matches are dropping. Interest only picks up at All Ireland semi finals and finals stage. Also, I would like to point out that if a three tier system was introduced in the morning, Wicklow wouldn't be in the junior competition unless all the counties in Division 3 and 4 are to play junior under your proposed system. Finally, I would love to see what constitutes the All Ireland championships under your proposal, there is even a gap between teams in Division 1 which can result in hammerings, for example, Clare were top of Division 2 this year, nearly promoted to Division 1 and were hammered by Kerry in the championship - what tier would Clare be in?
wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 2060 - 06/09/2021 16:20:25 2378285 Link 1 |
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Every time championship structures are discussed, it tends to be lads from the weaker counties who are against change. Club players in weaker counties are happy with the current structure because they have certainty over fixtures all summer as they know their county will be out of the championship by the end of June, they can have holidays in July abs then start their club championship in August - all finished and ready for their club champions to have a run at a provincial club title. If you are a serious sportsperson from Wicklow who wants to achieve excellence at your chosen sport, you simply play something other than GAA. The current system is set up to prevent elite athletes taking GAA as an option in 75% of counties. Why would you in Wicklow - you'll end up getting beaten in Leinster by Dublin every year (if your even good enough to get onto the same pitch as them) If Wicklow played in a tiered structure there would be something tangible to play for and (more importantly) keep a team together through most of the summer, allow their gameplan and tactics develop and improve. The current system means Wicklow change management every 2-3 years, only play 10 games over 4 months - while watching Dublin retain managers for 5-6 years and play 14-16 games over 8 months every year. The system ensures Dublin get better every year and keeps Wicklow down. It beggars belief why someone from Wicklow would keep the status quo if they genuinely wanted Wicklow to do well. tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1236 - 06/09/2021 19:39:25 2378333 Link 0 |
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Seems a good idea,I particularly like the home and away games and plenty games which is what players and supporters want.
ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 873 - 06/09/2021 22:26:10 2378389 Link 0 |
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The worst part of the current championship is the super 8s. They are also the closest parts of the championship to what a league based championship would look like. Sssthe (Mayo) - Posts: 58 - 06/09/2021 22:33:04 2378391 Link 0 |
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You obviously didn't read my post if you are saying that I favour maintaining the status quo. And just to point out that other teams are changing managers as often as Wicklow in Leinster. Our recent manager left to get the Kildare job as he is a kildare man.
wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 2060 - 06/09/2021 23:46:47 2378402 Link 0 |
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1/50 is overstated and other two understated - defend, if you can. Is there a possibility for any of us to introduce a Plan D ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3099 - 07/09/2021 00:30:12 2378409 Link 0 |
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Both proposals strike me as change for the sake of change. Nothing is really being addressed by either proposal. What's really needed is a Senior & Intermediate competition (possibly also a Junior competition). I'd add a route into the Sam Maguire cup for the provincial winners (the back door might be shiny and still relatively new but the front door has an air of distinction and elegance that only 140 odd years of tradition can add). Proposal A is the definition of fitting a square peg into a round hole - shave enough off the edges here and force in a bit of sawdust there. It might look good in the showroom but take it home and the edges will fray as the sawdust disappears and it slowly disintegrates. Proposal B has half of the best 16 counties (6,7,8 in DIv 1 and 4,5,6,7,8 in Div 2) playing no championship knock out games. Its a back door only route with tradition torn up for no real reason. For me Proposal B is closer. But why not add a path for the provincial winners instead of allowing Div 3 / 4 winners into the All Ireland? It also seems to have a Senior and Junior championship - why is it ignoring an Intermediate championship? brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 400 - 07/09/2021 10:33:53 2378455 Link 0 |
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The saddest part of the current system is that even the most ardent fan will pick and choose which games to watch as you know ahead of time the games that are pointless. This year's semi finals show the way forward, in which the best teams should be playing each other regularly. Instead we will have the provincial councils pushing retaining a system that doesn't work. Apart from the obvious disparity in the levels of certain teams, imagine in any other sport basing a championship on geography and there being a different number of teams in each championship, it's farcical. PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1659 - 07/09/2021 12:27:20 2378479 Link 1 |
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That looks like a good idea to me.
essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 07/09/2021 13:49:37 2378514 Link 0 |
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PK57, you make a fair point and yes, most of the hold up is due to provincial councils not wanting to relinquish their power to Croke park. The issue I have is how the proposed competitions are scheduled-marketed etc. Are the GAA intent on returning to a competition like the Tommy Murphy cup? If so, then I can't see players or supporters embracing such a competition as it was basically played behind closed doors and with no coverage by RTE or any other media outlet. If on the other hand, there is a well thought and structure competition which guarantee some exposure for the players involved, who dedicate the same time and effort preparing for these competitions and there is a way for weaker team to get back into the main All Ireland championship, then this is the way forward The elephant in the room and what has caused the drop off in interest is the gaps that are appears between teams and it isn't just teams in Division 3 and 4 where the gap exists despite the narrative suggesting this is the case. The gaps are due to resources that certain counties have access to through sponsorship while weaker counties can't generate the same resources and are at an unfair advantage. Some championship encounters is like Manchester United playing Bolton Wanderers. There is no way that Leitrim can compete with the financial resources of Mayo or Galway.
wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 2060 - 07/09/2021 14:02:17 2378519 Link 0 |
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The biggest soccer championship, the World Cup, is based on geography with a radically different number of teams in each geographical area (the continental zones: Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, North & Central America & Caribbean, Oceania) and a radically different number of qualifiers from each. It means that the best teams in the world are not all at the final tournament as Europe (for example) may well be underrepresented due to the number of places available. There is also no bar on different levels of teams playing each other with, for example, England and Andorra in the same group. The current provincial structure with a back door is not a lot different with each province providing a number of qualifiers for the final tournament (the Super 8s). If anything, it is less restrictive than the World Cup format in that each province is only guaranteed one team in the last eight with the other four places being up for grabs via the qualifiers. Any province, if it were good enough and the draw worked out, could have five teams in the last eight. CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 123 - 07/09/2021 14:06:15 2378522 Link 0 |
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Any system that means there are a different number of games to play for different counties is not worth keeping. In Ulster and Leinster, there are teams who will be required to play three matches to reach a provincial decider, while In Munster, a team could play one game and be in a final, that has to change. The only way to make things fair would be to have a two tier championship and have teams starting off in this grade based on league positions, but from what I've heard, no change will be the likely outcome at Congress so there will be more head in the sand stuff to come.
PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1659 - 07/09/2021 15:59:10 2378560 Link 0 |
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Be careful what you wish for PK57. The hurling structures were changed but they were retained within the context of retaining the provincial championships. If we lose the provincial championships then they are gone. I would be very wary of any Congress these days. This year's Congress was nothing more than a nodding shop where the delegates nodded their heads and gave the top table what the top table wanted.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6170 - 07/09/2021 17:09:30 2378582 Link 1 |
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On the contrary, it has worked very well in hurling for many years. and continues to do so. Please explain why you believe that it hasn't!
foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 2138 - 07/09/2021 17:18:47 2378592 Link 0 |
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Provincials need to be separate. Ulster final in March will still be a big game. Not the same for Munster but that's indicative of the huge gap between Kerry and the rest. I think the weaker counties could benefit from a round robin system. Provincial structure is unfair and there's no getting around that.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 07/09/2021 20:46:28 2378635 Link 0 |
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I agree with you foreveryoung that the tiered system has worked well in hurling. The reason it has is because all of the counties outside of the top tier bought into it. They had to buy into it because they knew they would never be able to compete at the top table and that the tiered system was the best system they would get. It offers every county in Ireland the chance to play a hurling final in Croke Park. Football supporters should be very careful what they wish for. Dispensing with the provincial championships and adopting a tiered system won't do away with hammerings. Hurling retained the provincial system in it's new look structures and it is at the core of the Liam McCarthy. A quick look at the tiered finals this year will show that in the Lory Meaghar Fermanagh hammered Cavan by 15 points. In the Nicky Rackard Mayo hammered Tyrone by 17 points. In the Christy Ring Offaly annihilated Derry and won by 21 points. The Joe McDonagh was very well contested with Westmeath overcoming Kerry. In the Liam McCarthy Limerick annihilated Cork and won by 17 points. The game was nothing more than an exhibition match after the first twenty minutes. From a competitive point of view the last three Liam McCarthy finals have been duds and have been won by an average of 14 points. The tiered system doesn't eliminate hammerings. Football needs to be very careful in relation to new structures that might dispense with the provincial championships. It is a balancing act between what would be lost and what might be gained. I believe that the provincial championships in one form or another must remain at the heart of the championship. The worrying thing is that it is the nodding shop that is Congress which will decide. Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6170 - 07/09/2021 23:33:51 2378682 Link 1 |
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I can't agree with you. The round robin system would be seeded most likely on the basis of league position. Anyone who has watched the Champion's League knows that the round robin system is an awful format that is manipulated in favour of clubs from the big four leagues.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6170 - 07/09/2021 23:37:50 2378684 Link 1 |
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No one will vote for a change to the Ulster championship- much like the Munster hurling championship it needs to be retained in any new structure tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1236 - 08/09/2021 03:21:05 2378695 Link 0 |