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Replying To Oldtourman: "You are dead right. What is wrong with bilingualism, many European countries are bilingual. In a new global world more and more Irish people are emigrating to countries where English is not the first language of the local people. It is an established fact that those who can speak two languages regularly are able to pick up other languages easier.
As far as this Hiberno English/Irish thing goes, it is a load of nonsense. We speak English like every other English place place that has a dialect of its own. What is it anyway, only badly spoken English. If you are speaking English, at least pay it the compliment of speaking it properly. Some people seem to think that because they throw in a few begobs and begorras laced with with an occasional 'get up the yard and the smell hay' that they speaking in some thing uniquely Irish fashion and thus of great cultural significance. I could disagree more." begobs and begorras isnt anything but paddywhackery cliched nonsense
hiberno english is the adaptation of english with irish changes so influenced by irish words, and then local slang.
and it isnt at all badly spoken english.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3511 - 31/08/2021 12:59:31
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Replying To Galway9801: "Oh there's plenty of em, I wouldnt let it bug me to the extent that I'd fall out with them over it but whenever they bang on about how proud they are to be irish or how much they love to see England bet I'm quick to remind them how immersed they are in British culture and how silly they sound." GAA is a huge part of our culture, but each to their own, and I hate this attitude that your are somehow less Irish if you don't love GAA, Irish music, culture etc. I absolutely love hurling, but I'm also a big Liverpool fan and rugby fan. I also love British music, television etc., so does that make me somehow less of an Irish person?
gilly1910 (Galway) - Posts: 170 - 31/08/2021 13:01:17
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Replying To DL_Man: "Just want to return to this absolute blast of a comment.
We have enough without the Irish language? The Irish language is the core component of our identity - our placenames, surnames, etc all come from it. Language is the cornerstone of national identity and it must be protected.
Hiberno Irish - this isn't a thing, I assume you mean Hiberno English, which is barely a dialect and is mostly based from Gaeilge syntax anyway.
Ulster GAA don't name clubs. If you have an issue with Kevin Lynch's, then surely you can't be too happy with Austin Stacks or Seán Treacy's? Sure didn't Treacy and Dan Breen kill innocent policemen without orders before the war had started?
You raise valid points about dropping symbolism to encourage people of different viewpoints to feel included, but please spare us the disregard for our own culture, the patronising nonsense about GAA clubs in Ulster, etc." I don't agree with you that the Irish language is the core component of our identity at all, if that's your view then we have lost our identity completely and maybe we have in many ways that we are too ashamed to admit.
Language is only one aspect of identity, of course an important one including history, politics , national sports, music and traditions etc.
If you can tick the box of Irish being your first language and what I mean by that is that you use it as your daily language at home, at work and when you socialize then yes I believe you can call yourself "real" Irish.
I got vilified on here for saying this a number of months back that people who live in places like Connemara and who use Irish as their first language are the only real Irish but I stand by that completely and I think you will agree with me given your opinion is that the Irish language is the core component of our identity.
A foreign visitor coming to explore Irelands rich history for the first time isn't going to learn much from a fella with waxed legs sipping a cappuccino trying to sound posh in a Dublin cafe, he can meet his clone in any city around Europe.
That fella in the Dublin cafe is a million miles from the real Irish man who's out in his currach tending to his lobster pots off the Connemara coast, who's first language is Irish, who enjoys Gaelic games and listens to traditional Irish music.
While both are Irish, the reality is that the Connemara man ticks more boxes of what the core elements of nationality identity means.
Irish will never be the first language of the whole country and that's the reality, that boat has long sailed I'm afraid.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 31/08/2021 13:09:05
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Replying To gilly1910: "GAA is a huge part of our culture, but each to their own, and I hate this attitude that your are somehow less Irish if you don't love GAA, Irish music, culture etc. I absolutely love hurling, but I'm also a big Liverpool fan and rugby fan. I also love British music, television etc., so does that make me somehow less of an Irish person?" You're still Irish, but perhaps you have less to show for it than some people. I'd see someone with Polish, Syrian, or Nigerian parents, who speaks Irish and plays GAA and Irish music, as more Irish than someone born and bred here to Irish parents who doesn't know a single thing about their culture.
Of course, people can take an interest in all cultures and none, but if you behave the same as someone from London, with the same interests, same habits and same culture, what's really Irish about you apart from living in a house here?
DL_Man (Donegal) - Posts: 145 - 31/08/2021 13:14:46
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Replying To gilly1910: "GAA is a huge part of our culture, but each to their own, and I hate this attitude that your are somehow less Irish if you don't love GAA, Irish music, culture etc. I absolutely love hurling, but I'm also a big Liverpool fan and rugby fan. I also love British music, television etc., so does that make me somehow less of an Irish person?" What barometer would be used to determine how irish you are if not your commitment to or love if things that are uniquely irish?
If speaking irish, following the gaa, listening to ceilidh music etc doesn't make you more irish than someone who only speaks English and only follows soccer and only listens to chary music, then what does?
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1717 - 31/08/2021 15:21:43
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Replying To AfricanGael: "I don't agree with you that the Irish language is the core component of our identity at all, if that's your view then we have lost our identity completely and maybe we have in many ways that we are too ashamed to admit.
Language is only one aspect of identity, of course an important one including history, politics , national sports, music and traditions etc.
If you can tick the box of Irish being your first language and what I mean by that is that you use it as your daily language at home, at work and when you socialize then yes I believe you can call yourself "real" Irish.
I got vilified on here for saying this a number of months back that people who live in places like Connemara and who use Irish as their first language are the only real Irish but I stand by that completely and I think you will agree with me given your opinion is that the Irish language is the core component of our identity.
A foreign visitor coming to explore Irelands rich history for the first time isn't going to learn much from a fella with waxed legs sipping a cappuccino trying to sound posh in a Dublin cafe, he can meet his clone in any city around Europe.
That fella in the Dublin cafe is a million miles from the real Irish man who's out in his currach tending to his lobster pots off the Connemara coast, who's first language is Irish, who enjoys Gaelic games and listens to traditional Irish music.
While both are Irish, the reality is that the Connemara man ticks more boxes of what the core elements of nationality identity means.
Irish will never be the first language of the whole country and that's the reality, that boat has long sailed I'm afraid." AG. Irish will never be the first language here again granted, but we could have a more positive attitude to bilingualism. Nobody is saying we should all stop speaking English, but in a changing world being bilingual would be no load. Heretofore, the English Speaking World was the destination of most people who emigrated from Ireland. However that is changing and that is evidenced in the fact that are GAA teams are to be found all over the Continent, America and even South East Asian cities now. It is is an established fact that efficiency in two languages makes it easier to learn subsequent ones, which can be help when emigrating to non English speaking countries.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4331 - 31/08/2021 16:03:18
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Replying To Oldtourman: "AG. Irish will never be the first language here again granted, but we could have a more positive attitude to bilingualism. Nobody is saying we should all stop speaking English, but in a changing world being bilingual would be no load. Heretofore, the English Speaking World was the destination of most people who emigrated from Ireland. However that is changing and that is evidenced in the fact that are GAA teams are to be found all over the Continent, America and even South East Asian cities now. It is is an established fact that efficiency in two languages makes it easier to learn subsequent ones, which can be help when emigrating to non English speaking countries." It's different in Ireland though because English is already the first language so there is really no practical incentive to learn Irish because over 95% of people know they will never use it as their first language whereas the countries you mention who are bilingual they have a clear incentive to learn English.
I'm glad you mentioned GAA clubs around Europe because I have been involved with a fair few of them and have literally hundreds of Irish contacts on the continent including the Scandinavian countries and I can tell you there are very few of the Irish people I know there who can speak a second language even though some of them have settled there for many years.
As one example, I met a few guys in the Netherlands who had been there for well over 20 years but yet not one of them could even give the taxi driver instructions as to where we wanted to go and when I asked them why they were unable to speak Dutch they all said the same thing, they didn't need to as English was spoken everywhere.
On the flip side of that I was at the bar in Schiphol airport and could hear the barman converse in Dutch, English, German and French. When I said to him you speak four languages, he said no I speak eight languages.
I found a similar situation in Scandinavia and Germany although France was different because it is hard to do any business there without being able to speak French unless you live in the expat community in Dordogne but once you learn French it makes the other romance languages easier to pick up as well.
It's much the same situation in Italy as it is in France.
So basically the point is most people will not learn a language fluently unless they can put it to some practical use, why would anyone learn mandarin Chinese unless it had some practical value to them and in my opinion it is impossible to learn a language fluently unless you are in the country where it is the native tongue and you immerse yourself fully in it.
So without having a practical value unfortunately I don't foresee a time when Irish people will be completely bilingual and there is absolutely no point in an Irish person being bilingual unless their second language is English, it would be like a cart before the horse if your second language was your "native" language.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 31/08/2021 17:37:59
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Replying To AfricanGael: "It's different in Ireland though because English is already the first language so there is really no practical incentive to learn Irish because over 95% of people know they will never use it as their first language whereas the countries you mention who are bilingual they have a clear incentive to learn English.
I'm glad you mentioned GAA clubs around Europe because I have been involved with a fair few of them and have literally hundreds of Irish contacts on the continent including the Scandinavian countries and I can tell you there are very few of the Irish people I know there who can speak a second language even though some of them have settled there for many years.
As one example, I met a few guys in the Netherlands who had been there for well over 20 years but yet not one of them could even give the taxi driver instructions as to where we wanted to go and when I asked them why they were unable to speak Dutch they all said the same thing, they didn't need to as English was spoken everywhere.
On the flip side of that I was at the bar in Schiphol airport and could hear the barman converse in Dutch, English, German and French. When I said to him you speak four languages, he said no I speak eight languages.
I found a similar situation in Scandinavia and Germany although France was different because it is hard to do any business there without being able to speak French unless you live in the expat community in Dordogne but once you learn French it makes the other romance languages easier to pick up as well.
It's much the same situation in Italy as it is in France.
So basically the point is most people will not learn a language fluently unless they can put it to some practical use, why would anyone learn mandarin Chinese unless it had some practical value to them and in my opinion it is impossible to learn a language fluently unless you are in the country where it is the native tongue and you immerse yourself fully in it.
So without having a practical value unfortunately I don't foresee a time when Irish people will be completely bilingual and there is absolutely no point in an Irish person being bilingual unless their second language is English, it would be like a cart before the horse if your second language was your "native" language." Take a look at the revival of Te Reo in New Zealand and the amount of white NZers particularly who are now learning the language. Look at the revival of Catalan since Franco's death. Look at the revival of Finnish in the last century. Look at how well Welsh has been preserved. All of these examples contradict your statement that people will only learn languages with "practical" (isn't every language practical if you're using it to make conversation) use.
Look at Belfast, and how there's an Irish language community there who can now gain their education through Irish, go to Irish language restaurants, go to Irish language events and now play Gaelic Football competitively through Irish.
DL_Man (Donegal) - Posts: 145 - 01/09/2021 12:46:37
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Replying To DL_Man: "Take a look at the revival of Te Reo in New Zealand and the amount of white NZers particularly who are now learning the language. Look at the revival of Catalan since Franco's death. Look at the revival of Finnish in the last century. Look at how well Welsh has been preserved. All of these examples contradict your statement that people will only learn languages with "practical" (isn't every language practical if you're using it to make conversation) use.
Look at Belfast, and how there's an Irish language community there who can now gain their education through Irish, go to Irish language restaurants, go to Irish language events and now play Gaelic Football competitively through Irish." Yes indeed. The argument about Scandinavian and Benelux countries is a weak as all these countries speak English, but the French instance is telling. My reason for dismissing the significance of Hiberno English is that you never hear of Mank, Welsh or Cornish English, despite the fact that all these regions changed to English from other languages and no big issue is made of some remaining traces of their older language constructions in their new English.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4331 - 01/09/2021 13:11:41
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Replying To DL_Man: "Take a look at the revival of Te Reo in New Zealand and the amount of white NZers particularly who are now learning the language. Look at the revival of Catalan since Franco's death. Look at the revival of Finnish in the last century. Look at how well Welsh has been preserved. All of these examples contradict your statement that people will only learn languages with "practical" (isn't every language practical if you're using it to make conversation) use.
Look at Belfast, and how there's an Irish language community there who can now gain their education through Irish, go to Irish language restaurants, go to Irish language events and now play Gaelic Football competitively through Irish." Did you bother reading what I wrote at all, as opposed to being a contradiction they are in fact confirmation of what I said to be correct.
"So basically the point is most people will not learn a language fluently unless they can put it to some practical use"
Forget about New Zealand, the Catalans, the Welsh and the Finnish, we are talking about Ireland here and the small example you gave regarding a restaurant in Belfast.
"isn't every language practical if you're using it to make conversation" well no not exactly, there are people out there who have learned Latin for example, they can converse with each other, has it any practical value ? Absolutely not.
So the people in Belfast are putting it to some practical use which makes my point completely valid.
But there is nothing stopping any community from doing the same thing, maybe they just don't want to, because they don't have to and that's a million miles from going to settle in somewhere like France where you simply have to learn the language to open up many doors for you.
Right now if someone only spoke Irish they would struggle to be understood by the majority of people in Ireland and that's the reality.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 01/09/2021 13:53:49
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Replying To AfricanGael: "Did you bother reading what I wrote at all, as opposed to being a contradiction they are in fact confirmation of what I said to be correct.
"So basically the point is most people will not learn a language fluently unless they can put it to some practical use"
Forget about New Zealand, the Catalans, the Welsh and the Finnish, we are talking about Ireland here and the small example you gave regarding a restaurant in Belfast.
"isn't every language practical if you're using it to make conversation" well no not exactly, there are people out there who have learned Latin for example, they can converse with each other, has it any practical value ? Absolutely not.
So the people in Belfast are putting it to some practical use which makes my point completely valid.
But there is nothing stopping any community from doing the same thing, maybe they just don't want to, because they don't have to and that's a million miles from going to settle in somewhere like France where you simply have to learn the language to open up many doors for you.
Right now if someone only spoke Irish they would struggle to be understood by the majority of people in Ireland and that's the reality." Yes but efficiency in two languages makes it easier to learn a third one.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4331 - 01/09/2021 14:07:02
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Replying To Oldtourman: " Replying To AfricanGael: "Did you bother reading what I wrote at all, as opposed to being a contradiction they are in fact confirmation of what I said to be correct.
"So basically the point is most people will not learn a language fluently unless they can put it to some practical use"
Forget about New Zealand, the Catalans, the Welsh and the Finnish, we are talking about Ireland here and the small example you gave regarding a restaurant in Belfast.
"isn't every language practical if you're using it to make conversation" well no not exactly, there are people out there who have learned Latin for example, they can converse with each other, has it any practical value ? Absolutely not.
So the people in Belfast are putting it to some practical use which makes my point completely valid.
But there is nothing stopping any community from doing the same thing, maybe they just don't want to, because they don't have to and that's a million miles from going to settle in somewhere like France where you simply have to learn the language to open up many doors for you.
Right now if someone only spoke Irish they would struggle to be understood by the majority of people in Ireland and that's the reality." Yes but efficiency in two languages makes it easier to learn a third one."
"Young people in the Republic have one of the worst records in Europe when it comes to speaking continental languages, a new report has found.
The Euro Student Survey found that Irish people in general "have little competence in continental European languages" and about half of all students, even with the benefit of second-level education, cannot speak a foreign language.
The report which examined student life across Europe said the Republic was a "special case" in relation to foreign languages. Even those with a proficiency in a foreign language (French in most cases) admitted they were not "good or very good" at speaking that language.
The performance of Irish students in relation to languages lagged considerably behind students from Belgium, the Netherlands, Finland and Germany. Ireland had the lowest proficiency in the whole report"
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 01/09/2021 14:51:09
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We're not genetically hampered from picking up new languages. The reason for the results in that study is because we generally haven't needed to learn a second language.
English is typically the global language of business. It's a learned language in schools in most of Europe. We're able to get buy with only English as result. In the same way that English people's proficiency in a 2nd language is also low, as it is for Americans.
In saying that, there's very strong evidence that bilingual people are much more proficient in learning additional languages, than those who are monolingual.
Mar dhuine a rugadh agus tógadh i gConamara, tá Gaeilge lárnach i mo shaol ó lá go lá. Ach tuigim go maith go nach shin é an chaoi atá sé ag an chuid is mó. Caithfidh mé a rá gur chuidigh sé liom cinnte, teanga breise a fhoghlaim agus tá an rud céanna le feiceáil le mo ghasúir.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2045 - 01/09/2021 17:09:48
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Replying To WanPintWin: "We're not genetically hampered from picking up new languages. The reason for the results in that study is because we generally haven't needed to learn a second language.
English is typically the global language of business. It's a learned language in schools in most of Europe. We're able to get buy with only English as result. In the same way that English people's proficiency in a 2nd language is also low, as it is for Americans.
In saying that, there's very strong evidence that bilingual people are much more proficient in learning additional languages, than those who are monolingual.
Mar dhuine a rugadh agus tógadh i gConamara, tá Gaeilge lárnach i mo shaol ó lá go lá. Ach tuigim go maith go nach shin é an chaoi atá sé ag an chuid is mó. Caithfidh mé a rá gur chuidigh sé liom cinnte, teanga breise a fhoghlaim agus tá an rud céanna le feiceáil le mo ghasúir." That's not true about the Americans, there's probably 50 million Americans who speak both English and Spanish and French is spoken by millions as well and there are many others European languages spoken there also.
English is the most common second language in the world but is Ireland the only country in Europe that uses a "foreign" language as it's first language, it probably is, so in that sense we are the odd man out.
I think as a people the majority are just too lazy to learn how to speak, read, write and understand Irish fluently and I include myself in that cohort.
Look at what the Israelis done with Hebrew, resurrected the language and it is now the day to day language of all Jewish Israelis.
So where there's a will there's a way but I don't think the majority of the Irish have the will, they are more interested in adopting other countries cultures than resurrecting or preserving their own.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 01/09/2021 18:55:26
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Replying To WanPintWin: "We're not genetically hampered from picking up new languages. The reason for the results in that study is because we generally haven't needed to learn a second language.
English is typically the global language of business. It's a learned language in schools in most of Europe. We're able to get buy with only English as result. In the same way that English people's proficiency in a 2nd language is also low, as it is for Americans.
In saying that, there's very strong evidence that bilingual people are much more proficient in learning additional languages, than those who are monolingual.
Mar dhuine a rugadh agus tógadh i gConamara, tá Gaeilge lárnach i mo shaol ó lá go lá. Ach tuigim go maith go nach shin é an chaoi atá sé ag an chuid is mó. Caithfidh mé a rá gur chuidigh sé liom cinnte, teanga breise a fhoghlaim agus tá an rud céanna le feiceáil le mo ghasúir." Tá dara teangacha i bhfad níos úsáideach do dhaoine ina gconaí congarach do teorainn. Féach ár an Eilvéis.
Suas Sios (None) - Posts: 1550 - 01/09/2021 19:20:26
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Replying To AfricanGael: "That's not true about the Americans, there's probably 50 million Americans who speak both English and Spanish and French is spoken by millions as well and there are many others European languages spoken there also.
English is the most common second language in the world but is Ireland the only country in Europe that uses a "foreign" language as it's first language, it probably is, so in that sense we are the odd man out.
I think as a people the majority are just too lazy to learn how to speak, read, write and understand Irish fluently and I include myself in that cohort.
Look at what the Israelis done with Hebrew, resurrected the language and it is now the day to day language of all Jewish Israelis.
So where there's a will there's a way but I don't think the majority of the Irish have the will, they are more interested in adopting other countries cultures than resurrecting or preserving their own." In the US, I'm referring to people who are not of immigrant background within the last generation. The vast majority of Americans of European background which is more than one generation ago, are primarily monolingual. They don't have a necessity to learn another language.
Scotland would be similar to Ireland also, in that they would have a low proportion of people fluent in a second language, relative to other European countries. This again is borne from necessity. There hasn't been a need in general to acquire another language.
My point is the fact that having a second language from a young age, does help with learning additional languages at a later age.
There's also evidence speaking more than one language can significantly improve the brain development in children improve learning ability across a range of areas, not just for language, but for memory and other cognitive skills.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2045 - 01/09/2021 19:38:24
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Replying To AfricanGael: "That's not true about the Americans, there's probably 50 million Americans who speak both English and Spanish and French is spoken by millions as well and there are many others European languages spoken there also.
English is the most common second language in the world but is Ireland the only country in Europe that uses a "foreign" language as it's first language, it probably is, so in that sense we are the odd man out.
I think as a people the majority are just too lazy to learn how to speak, read, write and understand Irish fluently and I include myself in that cohort.
Look at what the Israelis done with Hebrew, resurrected the language and it is now the day to day language of all Jewish Israelis.
So where there's a will there's a way but I don't think the majority of the Irish have the will, they are more interested in adopting other countries cultures than resurrecting or preserving their own." My point AG is that like you I know most Irish People will never want to learn Irish, but why are we so damn negative towards use of it at any level, and then they go all melancholy about 'losing our culture' if a few foreigners migrate here.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4331 - 01/09/2021 19:49:46
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Replying To Oldtourman: "My point AG is that like you I know most Irish People will never want to learn Irish, but why are we so damn negative towards use of it at any level, and then they go all melancholy about 'losing our culture' if a few foreigners migrate here." Maybe there's something in the psyche that associates the language with hardship or that the majority of young people simply think it's old fashioned or just not worth learning fluently, I don't know exactly.
I blame the teaching methods as well though, when learning any foreign language the first thing you should do is start putting together a few basic sentences and that builds confidence and don't worry too much about grammar or proper pronunciation.
I had to learn a foreign language for work reasons and even though I could converse well enough after a few months I could not read or write in the language because I had to self learn by just listening but I was immersed in it, I had no choice but to learn by listening.
Had I gone to a language school then there is not a hope in hell I would have been able to speak the language so well after a few months, I would have been bogged down learning about grammatical rules that native speakers don't even think about.
Learning languages can be fun so maybe it's the teaching methods which are wrong when it comes to Irish.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 01/09/2021 20:58:43
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Yeah the teaching of Irish has been spectacularly bad over the years. It was taught by people with no really gra for it and the curriculum was atrocious. It's changing because kids aren't saying they actively 'hate' it anymore. It's a start. However the point on Hebrew isn't really relevant. They needed a language for all. They nearly chose Yiddish and French was pushed hard aswell. All those Eastern European and North Africans just needed a vernacular everyone could understand.
The point about the Connemara fella and the currach being 'more' Irish is ludicrous. He's no more Irish than the guy with the skinny latte talking like a clown in Dublin. There's no graduated level of Irishness. It's actually a dangerous route to go down. It's what the Unionists are afraid of or our Protestant population. If you speak Irish ,play GAA ect ..it matters not a joy to your Irishness. We can't afford that carry on.
Good story about the Connemara fellas given good farms by a Bishop in Minnesota. About 300 of them were given the tools and seeds,horses everything. They lasted a year and were moved into Minneapolis and St Paul. They weren't able to farm the good land. They'd have farmed it well if guys got it down our way. That's just an aside. No slur on the Connemaras.
bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 03/09/2021 09:39:38
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Replying To gilly1910: "GAA is a huge part of our culture, but each to their own, and I hate this attitude that your are somehow less Irish if you don't love GAA, Irish music, culture etc. I absolutely love hurling, but I'm also a big Liverpool fan and rugby fan. I also love British music, television etc., so does that make me somehow less of an Irish person?" I do find it funny when all the Irish soccor fans want to see England beaten then the next week they are cheering for one of the premiership teams . I do think that the all Ireland hurling final day is the most Irish day of all. Alot of my relations in the uk have Irish passports and have never set foot in Ireland are they less Irish? But if you ask them they are British to the core.
ecad123 (Galway) - Posts: 272 - 03/09/2021 10:35:42
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