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Replying To ballydalane: " Replying To Aibrean: "Good post. I too can't understand why the 'experts' have such difficulty with the black card rule. The rule states: "To deliberately pull down an opponent". The word 'deliberately' is obviously crucial. So, clearly, the Small/McLoughlin incident did not merit a black card. In any case McLoughlin fell to the ground as if he were in the Euro Finals. And, by the way, the word 'intent' does not feature anywhere in the rules.
Errors - not highlighted - by Conor Lane included a pick-off-the-ground by John Small (37th min) and penalising Davy Byrne (61st min) for over-holding.
Of the two, Gough is by far the better ref." Mclaughlin fell to the ground as if he were in the Euros? The guy needed surgery on a double jaw break."
Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 263 - 17/08/2021 11:05:54
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Replying To Saynothing: "On Saturday were Dublin made to look average? Were their back playing like schoolboys near the end? Has Cluxton not kicked balls over sideline when pressure was on? Yes, he done it 3 times in a row in Omagh not so long ago. They don't like pressure. They looked great when they were let kick the ball to one another and bide their time to shoot but Mayo put an end to that. If ye want to see silly posts, look back at posts about shoulder charges." Dublin couldn't play football when it came to it, a basketball outfit, so anyone who says they were great champions knows nothing about football.
When asked, they couldn't play the game.
I must try and root out my post from a few months back which predicted that when they would come under real pressure that they wouldn't be able to play themselves out of it which was the case.
Beaten by a team of mostly young lads, one with broken ribs and with their key players missing.
Dublin were exposed and humiliated on Saturday night.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 17/08/2021 11:14:41
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Replying To AfricanGael: "Dublin couldn't play football when it came to it, a basketball outfit, so anyone who says they were great champions knows nothing about football.
When asked, they couldn't play the game.
I must try and root out my post from a few months back which predicted that when they would come under real pressure that they wouldn't be able to play themselves out of it which was the case.
Beaten by a team of mostly young lads, one with broken ribs and with their key players missing.
Dublin were exposed and humiliated on Saturday night." Good post, it only took 8 All-Irelands in 10 years for them to be found out.
Frauds!
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13717 - 17/08/2021 11:21:24
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "Hi Cluiche that. I never said it was a legal shoulder. I said it looked good in real time. It was nt good it was a red card offence. When I saw it in action replay I agree it was over the top and red." I never said you didn't. You said it looked good in real time and I asked you how a player can deliver a legal hit start from Smalls starting position on McLaughlin, he came from the front and unless McLaughlin turns there's no way to make contact with the shoulder. I'm beginning to think that some people seem to think a shoulder hit to the front part of the shoulder is legal it isn't. Outside of shoulder is where the contact has to be made. In a legal shoulder to shoulder hit a player is sent sideways not backwards. That's all I'm saying.
cluichethar (Mayo) - Posts: 454 - 17/08/2021 11:22:06
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Replying To AfricanGael: "Dublin couldn't play football when it came to it, a basketball outfit, so anyone who says they were great champions knows nothing about football.
When asked, they couldn't play the game.
I must try and root out my post from a few months back which predicted that when they would come under real pressure that they wouldn't be able to play themselves out of it which was the case.
Beaten by a team of mostly young lads, one with broken ribs and with their key players missing.
Dublin were exposed and humiliated on Saturday night." You're not actually suggesting that a team who won 6 AI's in a row, unquestionably the greatest squad to ever play the game, couldn't play under pressure are you? That's comical. One blip on an otherwise perfect 6 and a half year championship run means absolutely zero. Dublin have been put under much more pressure in the past and still came through. The only thing that was proven on Sat, which us Dubs all knew, was that they were human and beatable. The "blue juggernaut" only existed in the minds of opponents.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 17/08/2021 11:22:09
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Replying To Sindar: "Harder but it's not really a question of making things easier or harder for refs and there is a problem with the rule. Not all cynical play is a black card and that is confusing for supporters, players, coaches etc. An example would be pushing a player to the ground running in on goal. That play might be entirely cynical but it is only a noting offence as is pulling the player back by the jersey in a cynical play. To distinguish between the two, a defender who pulls the attacker by the jersey and it is clear that his intent is to bring him to the ground is a black card.
Another example is a player cynicially taking out an opponent with a tackle above the shoulders (yellow if there is little force). He could be going in on goal but it is not a black card. When an offence is clearly identified in the rule book a ref cannot apply another rule. Some refs give yellows for pulling jerseys in a cynical move and it may be because they feel they need to do something other than note. This is not good refereeing.
The ref can only apply the rules as written and interpretated in referee training. Difficult in such a rivalry and when half the country is screaming at you to take further action and have to listen to pundits who haven't read the rules themselves - McStay is an exception, though I didn't like his aboutturn after. (I thought O.McC went way ott on Lane on the Sunday Game telling him to take a long hard look at himself! He didn't have a good day for sure but he doesn't need that commentary and I hope he's doing well this week. He's reffed three All Ireland's (I think) and no controversies as far as I recall. I wish I could say that." "To distinguish between the two, a defender who pulls the attacker by the jersey and it is clear that his intent is to bring him to the ground is a black card."
I don't agree. "Intent" is not mentioned in the rules and, accordingly, is not a consideration. "Deliberately" is the word in the rules.
So, for example, when John Small tugged the jersey of Kevin McLoughlin you could not say that he "deliberately" pulled McLoughlin to the ground - even though McLoughlin ended up on the ground.
McStay got this one wrong, by the way. He was also mistaken on two counts when he said the re-taking of the 45 was due to a recent rule change whereby interfering with the free taker was a foul.
Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 263 - 17/08/2021 11:24:10
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Replying To AfricanGael: "Dublin couldn't play football when it came to it, a basketball outfit, so anyone who says they were great champions knows nothing about football.
When asked, they couldn't play the game.
I must try and root out my post from a few months back which predicted that when they would come under real pressure that they wouldn't be able to play themselves out of it which was the case.
Beaten by a team of mostly young lads, one with broken ribs and with their key players missing.
Dublin were exposed and humiliated on Saturday night." I could have sworn the game went to extra time. Maybe I'm mistaken.
Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 263 - 17/08/2021 11:26:31
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Replying To Pericles: "I checked that again last night and he didn't hop it twice as I thought in realtime. He soloed, took a step or two, stopped and then when he started to move again the ref pulled him. Definitely on the harsh side but balanced up a free given against McLaughlin in the first half which was harsh enough too." Towards the end frees could have went either way, ref didn't know.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2016 - 17/08/2021 11:35:36
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Replying To Pericles: " Replying To Sindar: "Yes you can deliberately pull someone to the ground by the jersey and that is a black card. However, that wasn't the case here. He pulled him back and not down. That might sound pedantic and technical but that's why words are carefully chosen in rules. You'd change the rule to state that a pull back is now a black card. Of course that causes other problems." Very good posts and info Sindar, but surely if someone's accelerating away from you and you pull their jersey there's a good chance they're going to lose their footing. Would have been different if the two were side by side and/or running at the same speed. Kevin McLoughlin was running away from the defender and the jersey pull caused him to lose traction and balance. Is that not a pull down? I'm leaving the cynical aspect out as that doesn't seem to make any difference to what the ref decides according to what you've said (rules not open to interpretation)."
It all definitely needs to be looked at again and all cyncial play should be black cards in my view. But all eventualities need to be covered.
It I was in charge of it I'd get rid of the black cards completely (not the offences) and make them yellow cards and make all yellow cards a sin binning offence. That's the way it is in ladies football and it seems to work. Not perfect in men's but there would be no debates between black and yellow.
Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 17/08/2021 11:35:38
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Replying To Aibrean: "I could have sworn the game went to extra time. Maybe I'm mistaken." Well you have already made a serious mistake regarding the Small/McLoughlin incident and a wrong choice of words regarding players falling at the Euros so you have form when it comes to making mistakes.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 17/08/2021 11:37:34
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Replying To MesAmis: "Good post, it only took 8 All-Irelands in 10 years for them to be found out.
Frauds!" Six in a row in football and basketball, even when we loose we win! ;D
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 17/08/2021 11:45:39
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Replying To Aibrean: ""To distinguish between the two, a defender who pulls the attacker by the jersey and it is clear that his intent is to bring him to the ground is a black card."
I don't agree. "Intent" is not mentioned in the rules and, accordingly, is not a consideration. "Deliberately" is the word in the rules.
So, for example, when John Small tugged the jersey of Kevin McLoughlin you could not say that he "deliberately" pulled McLoughlin to the ground - even though McLoughlin ended up on the ground.
McStay got this one wrong, by the way. He was also mistaken on two counts when he said the re-taking of the 45 was due to a recent rule change whereby interfering with the free taker was a foul." You are right I should have used deliberate instead of intent. I don't think we can say Small deliberatley pulled McLoughlin to the ground though. That's not the way referees interpret this and I would be quite adamant that I am correct on that.
Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 17/08/2021 11:48:30
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Replying To Joxer: "You're not actually suggesting that a team who won 6 AI's in a row, unquestionably the greatest squad to ever play the game, couldn't play under pressure are you? That's comical. One blip on an otherwise perfect 6 and a half year championship run means absolutely zero. Dublin have been put under much more pressure in the past and still came through. The only thing that was proven on Sat, which us Dubs all knew, was that they were human and beatable. The "blue juggernaut" only existed in the minds of opponents." Look ,we all know how they won 6 All-Irelands in a row and the help they were given to get there from every quarter.
Had Kerry or Mayo been given the same treatment and advantages they would have won 6 in a row as well so it's no great achievement.
The only difference is they would have won in style and not have to resort to basketball.
In the end it was the basketball which caught the Dubs out, because they weren't able to play football when it came to pulling the game out of the fire.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 17/08/2021 11:52:13
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I see a lot of mayo posters on this site..none of ye have mentioned the stupidity of ye,re captain at the end of normal time..he goot involved with philly when he had been reaced and should have been watching from the stand..what do ye think of his actions?i think this was a huge mistake from all the officials and he should have received a red for it..
CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 2224 - 17/08/2021 11:53:13
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Replying To cluichethar: "I never said you didn't. You said it looked good in real time and I asked you how a player can deliver a legal hit start from Smalls starting position on McLaughlin, he came from the front and unless McLaughlin turns there's no way to make contact with the shoulder. I'm beginning to think that some people seem to think a shoulder hit to the front part of the shoulder is legal it isn't. Outside of shoulder is where the contact has to be made. In a legal shoulder to shoulder hit a player is sent sideways not backwards. That's all I'm saying." Spot on and good point Cluichethár. Didn't think about it like that. Apologies, I misunderstood you earlier.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7359 - 17/08/2021 12:00:42
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Replying To Joxer: "You're not actually suggesting that a team who won 6 AI's in a row, unquestionably the greatest squad to ever play the game, couldn't play under pressure are you? That's comical. One blip on an otherwise perfect 6 and a half year championship run means absolutely zero. Dublin have been put under much more pressure in the past and still came through. The only thing that was proven on Sat, which us Dubs all knew, was that they were human and beatable. The "blue juggernaut" only existed in the minds of opponents." Joxer, he's a troll and a WUM. I wouldn't give him the attention he craves.
avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1974 - 17/08/2021 12:00:52
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Replying To Sindar: "I remember the 2016 Dublin v Kerry semi and I think the Kevin McManamon "shoulder" tackle was the major talking point. Gough missed that one for sure. I don't know what you mean by the two games being reffed in different syles but I would be surpised if a referee didn't develop his style over three years and having reffed more high level games.
In relation to the Cooper sending off, he applied the rule book to the letter. We know from afterwards that he told Cooper that he was on a last warning for persistent fouling." .
The McManamon "shoulder" tackle was the major media talking point - Gough later in the year felt the need to 'apologise'. However for those who watched the match in full it wasn't that different from a hit by AOM or somebody on Philly Mc on the Cusack side a few mins earlier, both were fouls. Goes to show how media talking points inform people's opinions I suppose as opposed to the match as a whole which is hardly news.
But to the salient issue - the "development of his style" as you put it, which certainly surprised Cooper & Gavin as well as us observers, was precisely the point of the post I made. If you think both games were reffed in the same manner we shall simply have to agree to differ- to put it very mildly.
timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 17/08/2021 12:22:09
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Replying To CTGAA10: "I see a lot of mayo posters on this site..none of ye have mentioned the stupidity of ye,re captain at the end of normal time..he goot involved with philly when he had been reaced and should have been watching from the stand..what do ye think of his actions?i think this was a huge mistake from all the officials and he should have received a red for it.." Don't mention that great Aidan O'Shea whatever you do, sure he was only on there trying to help out the ref and officials like he always does,
he has extra work now that Cillian O'Connor is out injured, have some manners lad.
Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2756 - 17/08/2021 12:25:36
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Replying To Sindar: " Replying To Aibrean: ""To distinguish between the two, a defender who pulls the attacker by the jersey and it is clear that his intent is to bring him to the ground is a black card."
I don't agree. "Intent" is not mentioned in the rules and, accordingly, is not a consideration. "Deliberately" is the word in the rules.
So, for example, when John Small tugged the jersey of Kevin McLoughlin you could not say that he "deliberately" pulled McLoughlin to the ground - even though McLoughlin ended up on the ground.
McStay got this one wrong, by the way. He was also mistaken on two counts when he said the re-taking of the 45 was due to a recent rule change whereby interfering with the free taker was a foul." You are right I should have used deliberate instead of intent. I don't think we can say Small deliberatley pulled McLoughlin to the ground though. That's not the way referees interpret this and I would be quite adamant that I am correct on that."
Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 263 - 17/08/2021 12:39:56
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Replying To CTGAA10: "I see a lot of mayo posters on this site..none of ye have mentioned the stupidity of ye,re captain at the end of normal time..he goot involved with philly when he had been reaced and should have been watching from the stand..what do ye think of his actions?i think this was a huge mistake from all the officials and he should have received a red for it.." Absolute stupidity from him. He had no place being there and if it was vice versa philly running on there would be a lot more talk about it
galwayfball (Galway) - Posts: 1678 - 17/08/2021 12:40:51
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