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Replying To Mailman98: "But Walsh got injured which by your logic on McLaughlin makes the other player entitled to a red. I'm merely trying to show you how flawed that logic is and you've confirmed that by saying O'hora didn't deserve a red for injuring Walsh." no and watch it again both players tangled with each other small lined mcloughlin up he didnt see it coming you really need to watch game back
mayo_123 (Mayo) - Posts: 240 - 17/08/2021 09:48:30
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Replying To roundball: "Sindar... Genuine question from a health professional who covers sports fixtures to a referee-
How can you argue that this "could have been red but definitely a yellow - that's the interpretation between "rough play" and "behaving in a way that is dangerous to an opponent" - subjective"- How can it be subjective?
McLaughlin has the ball.
He is deliberately and forcefully challenged for the ball by John Small.
As a result of that forceful and deliberate challenge he quite apparently loses consciousness and falls to the floor.
The medical staff immediately determine that he must be triple immobilised and place on a spinal scoop to be safely extricated from the field of play.
How can a referee determine that this outcome for Eoghan McLaughlin was the result anything other than the result of John Small "behaving in a way that is dangerous to an opponent"? By definition?
I don't see how this is, as you have said a "subjective call"? Clearly it's a deliberate action from John Small- he has intended to make a legitimate tackle. And quite clearly in doing so he has endangered Eoghan McLaughlin.
Any possible sanction other than a red card in this instance surely makes the game unsafe does it not?" Shoulders are always deliberate though so I'm not sure how we can judge whether is unsafe or not given any change to body positioning at the moment of impact etc. Do away with the shoulder. That's the only way to make the game safer.
lilylanger (Kildare) - Posts: 758 - 17/08/2021 09:58:18
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Replying To supersub15: "Let it go, - and throw out that shovel." Are you not busy getting your stats for ranking teams? Although subs do have plenty of time on their hands.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2017 - 17/08/2021 10:02:11
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Replying To Aibrean: "Good post. I too can't understand why the 'experts' have such difficulty with the black card rule. The rule states: "To deliberately pull down an opponent". The word 'deliberately' is obviously crucial. So, clearly, the Small/McLoughlin incident did not merit a black card. In any case McLoughlin fell to the ground as if he were in the Euro Finals. And, by the way, the word 'intent' does not feature anywhere in the rules.
Errors - not highlighted - by Conor Lane included a pick-off-the-ground by John Small (37th min) and penalising Davy Byrne (61st min) for over-holding.
Of the two, Gough is by far the better ref." Very poor choice of words given that a man drooped to the ground and was brought back to life at the Euros following a heart attack.
Thankfully he was surrounded by professionals.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 17/08/2021 10:03:22
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Replying To GreenandRed: "Great explanation there Sindar. Has the introduction of the black card made refereeing easier for you and other referees?" Harder but it's not really a question of making things easier or harder for refs and there is a problem with the rule. Not all cynical play is a black card and that is confusing for supporters, players, coaches etc. An example would be pushing a player to the ground running in on goal. That play might be entirely cynical but it is only a noting offence as is pulling the player back by the jersey in a cynical play. To distinguish between the two, a defender who pulls the attacker by the jersey and it is clear that his intent is to bring him to the ground is a black card.
Another example is a player cynicially taking out an opponent with a tackle above the shoulders (yellow if there is little force). He could be going in on goal but it is not a black card. When an offence is clearly identified in the rule book a ref cannot apply another rule. Some refs give yellows for pulling jerseys in a cynical move and it may be because they feel they need to do something other than note. This is not good refereeing.
The ref can only apply the rules as written and interpretated in referee training. Difficult in such a rivalry and when half the country is screaming at you to take further action and have to listen to pundits who haven't read the rules themselves - McStay is an exception, though I didn't like his aboutturn after. (I thought O.McC went way ott on Lane on the Sunday Game telling him to take a long hard look at himself! He didn't have a good day for sure but he doesn't need that commentary and I hope he's doing well this week. He's reffed three All Ireland's (I think) and no controversies as far as I recall. I wish I could say that.
Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 17/08/2021 10:03:31
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Replying To Saynothing: "Agree, seemed to bounce ball twice, goes to show when the pressure is on they were made to look average. Cluxton was the same, when you pushed up and covered men he more than likely kicked ball over sideline. Done it umpteen times in the past. Schoolboy stuff in the back line when their panicked." I checked that again last night and he didn't hop it twice as I thought in realtime. He soloed, took a step or two, stopped and then when he started to move again the ref pulled him. Definitely on the harsh side but balanced up a free given against McLaughlin in the first half which was harsh enough too.
Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2521 - 17/08/2021 10:06:51
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Replying To timmyhogan: ".
Well it's good to have an informed opinion from an actual ref but there is another 'issue' at play here - here being the reffing of high profile GAA matches. You make a valid point in contrasting the styles of Gough & Lane in 2019 but lets take the different ref out of the equation and look at say one ref only. Lets also take Mayo out of the equation - that way we might avoid the usual scutter from the usual suspects.
Gough reffed Dublin Kerry in 2016 & again in 2019. Don't know if you watched both games but I did - as a neutral - if only on TV. Do you honestly think both games were reffed in the same manner
I don't and could even call on Jim Gavin as an expert witness. Gavin certainly knows more than I about watching/managing SemiFinals and Finals in Croker. I suspect that he even knows more than most HS posters!
Lets just to take one (controversial) issue from the 2019 - the sending off of Johnny Cooper. Now despite an early yellow and soft (non existent) penalty against Cooper Gavin didn't sub him off or worry that he might be down to 14 men. And yet suddenly before HT Cooper was off and Kerry almost stopped the 5 in a row. They would have only for leaving 2-2 behind in the first 15 mins.
Either Gavin knew thats not how Dublin games are usually reffed or else he had money on Kerry. I suspect the former.
Having said all that I always thought Lane was straight and a competent ref - well up till this year at any rate. He made some poor decisions yesterday and in the Meath & Galway games." I remember the 2016 Dublin v Kerry semi and I think the Kevin McManamon "shoulder" tackle was the major talking point. Gough missed that one for sure. I don't know what you mean by the two games being reffed in different syles but I would be surpised if a referee didn't develop his style over three years and having reffed more high level games.
In relation to the Cooper sending off, he applied the rule book to the letter. We know from afterwards that he told Cooper that he was on a last warning for persistent fouling.
Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 17/08/2021 10:11:48
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Replying To Pericles: "I checked that again last night and he didn't hop it twice as I thought in realtime. He soloed, took a step or two, stopped and then when he started to move again the ref pulled him. Definitely on the harsh side but balanced up a free given against McLaughlin in the first half which was harsh enough too." He held onto the ball too long and was going nowhere. Free all day long.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 17/08/2021 10:16:05
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Replying To Saynothing: "Agree, seemed to bounce ball twice, goes to show when the pressure is on they were made to look average. Cluxton was the same, when you pushed up and covered men he more than likely kicked ball over sideline. Done it umpteen times in the past. Schoolboy stuff in the back line when their panicked." For somebody who calls themselves "Saynothing" you can pack some amount of nonsense into 4 sentences.One of the silliest posts ever seen on HS.
avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1974 - 17/08/2021 10:18:15
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "Interesting post Sindar and good to get a refs views on matters. On the pulling a jersey I agree it's only a minor foul. However imo a black card can be issued for a deliberate pulldown and that incident was a deliberate pull down (pulling him to the ground by the Jersey). Correct me if I'm wrong but but you can deliberately pull someone down by jersey pulling. On the Small incident I agree that Lane made a wrong call but in real time it did look like a fair shoulder tackle. However Lane did nt have action replay. He should have course stopped play." Yes you can deliberately pull someone to the ground by the jersey and that is a black card. However, that wasn't the case here. He pulled him back and not down. That might sound pedantic and technical but that's why words are carefully chosen in rules. You'd change the rule to state that a pull back is now a black card. Of course that causes other problems.
Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 17/08/2021 10:18:39
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Replying To Sindar: "Harder but it's not really a question of making things easier or harder for refs and there is a problem with the rule. Not all cynical play is a black card and that is confusing for supporters, players, coaches etc. An example would be pushing a player to the ground running in on goal. That play might be entirely cynical but it is only a noting offence as is pulling the player back by the jersey in a cynical play. To distinguish between the two, a defender who pulls the attacker by the jersey and it is clear that his intent is to bring him to the ground is a black card.
Another example is a player cynicially taking out an opponent with a tackle above the shoulders (yellow if there is little force). He could be going in on goal but it is not a black card. When an offence is clearly identified in the rule book a ref cannot apply another rule. Some refs give yellows for pulling jerseys in a cynical move and it may be because they feel they need to do something other than note. This is not good refereeing.
The ref can only apply the rules as written and interpretated in referee training. Difficult in such a rivalry and when half the country is screaming at you to take further action and have to listen to pundits who haven't read the rules themselves - McStay is an exception, though I didn't like his aboutturn after. (I thought O.McC went way ott on Lane on the Sunday Game telling him to take a long hard look at himself! He didn't have a good day for sure but he doesn't need that commentary and I hope he's doing well this week. He's reffed three All Ireland's (I think) and no controversies as far as I recall. I wish I could say that." Oisin McConville was 100% correct and fair play to him, we need more people with a pair like him.
Are you telling me that you wouldn't take a long hard look at yourself if you left a seriously injured player on the ground and didn't stop the game.
If he's not fit to see when a player is seriously injured then he's not fit to ref and what happened on Saturday is what Lane will be remembered by and on top of that he lost total control of the game.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 17/08/2021 10:28:03
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Replying To Sindar: "Yes you can deliberately pull someone to the ground by the jersey and that is a black card. However, that wasn't the case here. He pulled him back and not down. That might sound pedantic and technical but that's why words are carefully chosen in rules. You'd change the rule to state that a pull back is now a black card. Of course that causes other problems." Yeah its annoying people still haven't understood the difference in the rules of a pull back and pull down.
The rule is or will bring in diving, as if you get a pull of the jersey now the player is told to go to ground and black card might be given. Also if you are defending, you are told if you pull back someone grab them and keep them upright so then you will only receive a yellow card
tommy132 (Mayo) - Posts: 602 - 17/08/2021 10:34:17
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Replying To AfricanGael: "He held onto the ball too long and was going nowhere. Free all day long." Just saying you see worse not being penalised Africangael but that's the problem with so many rules. Fully agree, his indecision was probably what convinced Lane... when he stopped he needed to get rid of the ball.
Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2521 - 17/08/2021 10:35:41
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Replying To Tirchonaill1: "Looks like P.Mckenna (Louth) is another one of African Gail's aliases, along with Killingfields as well,
it must have some kind of personality disorder, more to be pitied really I suppose. puerile indeed." AnBlianainainAir was another. He claimed to be from Laois. A sad case .
avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1974 - 17/08/2021 10:36:25
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Replying To roundball: "Sindar... Genuine question from a health professional who covers sports fixtures to a referee-
How can you argue that this "could have been red but definitely a yellow - that's the interpretation between "rough play" and "behaving in a way that is dangerous to an opponent" - subjective"- How can it be subjective?
McLaughlin has the ball.
He is deliberately and forcefully challenged for the ball by John Small.
As a result of that forceful and deliberate challenge he quite apparently loses consciousness and falls to the floor.
The medical staff immediately determine that he must be triple immobilised and place on a spinal scoop to be safely extricated from the field of play.
How can a referee determine that this outcome for Eoghan McLaughlin was the result anything other than the result of John Small "behaving in a way that is dangerous to an opponent"? By definition?
I don't see how this is, as you have said a "subjective call"? Clearly it's a deliberate action from John Small- he has intended to make a legitimate tackle. And quite clearly in doing so he has endangered Eoghan McLaughlin.
Any possible sanction other than a red card in this instance surely makes the game unsafe does it not?" No two aggressive tackles are the same so interpretation is always required. As in soccer, rugby etc., GAA referees review and discuss as many incidents as possible so that some level of standardisation can be achieved but it's never going to be perfect.
In GAA the result of an aggressive foul is not a factor in determining the disciplinary action (I think it is in rugby from what I have seen). e.g. a player could be pushed to the ground and land awkwardly dislocating a shoulder. Is that a red card? No. On the opposite side of that, a player could take a swing at an opponents head fully intending to do damage but he misses. GAA rules state that is a red card because it's all about intent.
Other posters and some pundits mentioned "duty of care", which is something that you seem to be alluding to. You won't find "duty of care" mentioned in our playing rules (with the exception of a legal liability clause which is not relevant here). There is a rule about inflicting injury recklessly (red card) which could certainly be considered in this instance but they are not the same thing imo. It's often used in rugby (I'm just a watcher of the game only) when a player goes up for a high ball and is taken out such as in a lineout or garryowen. The player tackling but who does not win the ball has a responsibility to ensure his opponent lands safely. That's duty of care and it doesn't exist in GAA.
Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 17/08/2021 10:46:44
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Replying To tommy132: " Replying To Sindar: "Yes you can deliberately pull someone to the ground by the jersey and that is a black card. However, that wasn't the case here. He pulled him back and not down. That might sound pedantic and technical but that's why words are carefully chosen in rules. You'd change the rule to state that a pull back is now a black card. Of course that causes other problems." Yeah its annoying people still haven't understood the difference in the rules of a pull back and pull down. The rule is or will bring in diving, as if you get a pull of the jersey now the player is told to go to ground and black card might be given. Also if you are defending, you are told if you pull back someone grab them and keep them upright so then you will only receive a yellow card"
Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 17/08/2021 10:50:13
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Replying To Sindar: "Yes you can deliberately pull someone to the ground by the jersey and that is a black card. However, that wasn't the case here. He pulled him back and not down. That might sound pedantic and technical but that's why words are carefully chosen in rules. You'd change the rule to state that a pull back is now a black card. Of course that causes other problems." Very good posts and info Sindar, but surely if someone's accelerating away from you and you pull their jersey there's a good chance they're going to lose their footing. Would have been different if the two were side by side and/or running at the same speed. Kevin McLoughlin was running away from the defender and the jersey pull caused him to lose traction and balance. Is that not a pull down? I'm leaving the cynical aspect out as that doesn't seem to make any difference to what the ref decides according to what you've said (rules not open to interpretation).
Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2521 - 17/08/2021 10:54:34
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Replying To Oldtourman: " Replying To Aibrean: "Good post. I too can't understand why the 'experts' have such difficulty with the black card rule. The rule states: "To deliberately pull down an opponent". The word 'deliberately' is obviously crucial. So, clearly, the Small/McLoughlin incident did not merit a black card. In any case McLoughlin fell to the ground as if he were in the Euro Finals. And, by the way, the word 'intent' does not feature anywhere in the rules.
Errors - not highlighted - by Conor Lane included a pick-off-the-ground by John Small (37th min) and penalising Davy Byrne (61st min) for over-holding.
Of the two, Gough is by far the better ref." You might fall to the ground like a sack of spuds if your jaw was broke in two places. Your county man Tomas O'Shea said last that Small owed a duty of care to the man he was tackling and once it went so badly wrong he should have walked."
Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 263 - 17/08/2021 10:57:02
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Replying To avonali: "For somebody who calls themselves "Saynothing" you can pack some amount of nonsense into 4 sentences.One of the silliest posts ever seen on HS." On Saturday were Dublin made to look average? Were their back playing like schoolboys near the end? Has Cluxton not kicked balls over sideline when pressure was on? Yes, he done it 3 times in a row in Omagh not so long ago. They don't like pressure. They looked great when they were let kick the ball to one another and bide their time to shoot but Mayo put an end to that. If ye want to see silly posts, look back at posts about shoulder charges.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2017 - 17/08/2021 10:59:36
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Replying To Mailman98: "How is it astonishing? I don't know of any local rivals who want their neighbours to win in any sport worldwide. You probably follow a Premier League team like Man Utd or Liverpool and would break out in a cold sweat if the other wins a trophy. Do you think the Cork people will be backing Kerry against Tyrone or Armagh backing Tyrone v Kerry? Nobody would bat an eyelid at Meath lads shouting for Mayo but Galway people are expected to back Mayo just because they never win an All Ireland. I find it astonishing that any Galway person in their right mind would want Mayo to bring a cup across the Shannon. I'd also be disgusted if Mayo fans got any pleasure from a Galway win." There are different types of supporters in all counties obviously! Most people in Ireland would normally support the underdog. Dublin and Kerry would never be underdogs, not in our lifetime anyway. I don't follow any soccer but I have noticed the influence of soccer on our games and on our supporters, especially in the the past 30 years.
It's called sport you know! I must be naive. If things are so vicious shouldn't we call it warfare or a blood sport.
Are you saying that neither Joe Connolly nor Joe Canning, two of our finest sportmen, were in "their right mind" when they said publicly that they'd love to see Mayo win an All Ireland?
Taking pleasure in other people's misfortune, well, that's not good for your soul unless you're a dystopian!
baire (Galway) - Posts: 1813 - 17/08/2021 11:00:37
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