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Lots of comments in here about the ref and the on and off the ball incidents. I'm a club ref and unfortuntately tend to watch these games as a ref and not just enjoy it like everyone else. I have empathy for Lane on the Small/McLaughlin tackle. In real time it looked good and the ref only gets real time (no tmo/var in GAA please!) and he has half a sec to make that call. After watching it a gazillion times since it could have been red but definitely a yellow - that's the interpretation between "rough play" and "behaving in a way that is dangerous to an opponent" - subjective. Either way, Lane should have stopped play and he could have done that at any point after the tackle once he realised McLaughlin was not getting up - err on the side of caution which in fairness, most refs do in such instances.
Pundits such as T. O´Sé and O.McC call for a definitite black card for the pull on the jersey (Davy Byrne) but apparently it doesn't fit their image to actually read what the rules state. Pulling a jersey is not a black card offence and it doesn't matter where/when it happens. In fact it is a noting offence only (not even a yellow card!!). Pulling a player by the jersey and that player going to ground is not the same as pulling him to the ground which is a black card. Happy to explain if asked but it's mostly about intent to bring the player down vs slow him down. If they want to argue that the rule should be changed then that's a different matter.
Finally, players and fans alike often call on refs to "let the game flow". Gimme a break! What does that actually mean anyway? Conor Lane and David Gough would be very different types of refs imo. They both reffed the two ´19 finals and I had a good seat on both occassions. The former tends to let a lot go rather than deal with incidents. If you do that at the start of a game then you are going to have problems in high intensity games such as these ones later on. It's difficult to now start pulling for fouls that weren't being pulled earlier - that's where you get charged with inconsistency. Gough is the opposite. He pulls for everything but I've never seen him lose control of a game.
Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 16/08/2021 18:01:01
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Replying To Hill16downunder: "The 45 was retaken as Mayo had 16 players on the pitch. If anything it should have been a throw ball and not a retake so agree it was a massive error on Lanes part.
He lost control of the game from early on an there was no going back. Dublin could have had a number of red cards and the call on Comerford fouling the ball was very harsh which gifted Mayo a free in front of the posts. Mayo deserved their win but Lane did not do ok" Did Comerford not hop the ball twice?.. that's what I thought at the time and I didn't watch the SG for their slow-moron analysis.
Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2521 - 16/08/2021 18:10:44
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Replying To Pericles: "Did Comerford not hop the ball twice?.. that's what I thought at the time and I didn't watch the SG for their slow-moron analysis." No, for overcarrying, which it never was.
Gavvygavgav (Dublin) - Posts: 383 - 16/08/2021 18:38:26
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Replying To Sindar: "Lots of comments in here about the ref and the on and off the ball incidents. I'm a club ref and unfortuntately tend to watch these games as a ref and not just enjoy it like everyone else. I have empathy for Lane on the Small/McLaughlin tackle. In real time it looked good and the ref only gets real time (no tmo/var in GAA please!) and he has half a sec to make that call. After watching it a gazillion times since it could have been red but definitely a yellow - that's the interpretation between "rough play" and "behaving in a way that is dangerous to an opponent" - subjective. Either way, Lane should have stopped play and he could have done that at any point after the tackle once he realised McLaughlin was not getting up - err on the side of caution which in fairness, most refs do in such instances.
Pundits such as T. O´Sé and O.McC call for a definitite black card for the pull on the jersey (Davy Byrne) but apparently it doesn't fit their image to actually read what the rules state. Pulling a jersey is not a black card offence and it doesn't matter where/when it happens. In fact it is a noting offence only (not even a yellow card!!). Pulling a player by the jersey and that player going to ground is not the same as pulling him to the ground which is a black card. Happy to explain if asked but it's mostly about intent to bring the player down vs slow him down. If they want to argue that the rule should be changed then that's a different matter.
Finally, players and fans alike often call on refs to "let the game flow". Gimme a break! What does that actually mean anyway? Conor Lane and David Gough would be very different types of refs imo. They both reffed the two ´19 finals and I had a good seat on both occassions. The former tends to let a lot go rather than deal with incidents. If you do that at the start of a game then you are going to have problems in high intensity games such as these ones later on. It's difficult to now start pulling for fouls that weren't being pulled earlier - that's where you get charged with inconsistency. Gough is the opposite. He pulls for everything but I've never seen him lose control of a game." Interesting post Sindar and good to get a refs views on matters. On the pulling a jersey I agree it's only a minor foul. However imo a black card can be issued for a deliberate pulldown and that incident was a deliberate pull down (pulling him to the ground by the Jersey). Correct me if I'm wrong but but you can deliberately pull someone down by jersey pulling. On the Small incident I agree that Lane made a wrong call but in real time it did look like a fair shoulder tackle. However Lane did nt have action replay. He should have course stopped play.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3678 - 16/08/2021 18:45:58
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Replying To Sindar: "Lots of comments in here about the ref and the on and off the ball incidents. I'm a club ref and unfortuntately tend to watch these games as a ref and not just enjoy it like everyone else. I have empathy for Lane on the Small/McLaughlin tackle. In real time it looked good and the ref only gets real time (no tmo/var in GAA please!) and he has half a sec to make that call. After watching it a gazillion times since it could have been red but definitely a yellow - that's the interpretation between "rough play" and "behaving in a way that is dangerous to an opponent" - subjective. Either way, Lane should have stopped play and he could have done that at any point after the tackle once he realised McLaughlin was not getting up - err on the side of caution which in fairness, most refs do in such instances.
Pundits such as T. O´Sé and O.McC call for a definitite black card for the pull on the jersey (Davy Byrne) but apparently it doesn't fit their image to actually read what the rules state. Pulling a jersey is not a black card offence and it doesn't matter where/when it happens. In fact it is a noting offence only (not even a yellow card!!). Pulling a player by the jersey and that player going to ground is not the same as pulling him to the ground which is a black card. Happy to explain if asked but it's mostly about intent to bring the player down vs slow him down. If they want to argue that the rule should be changed then that's a different matter.
Finally, players and fans alike often call on refs to "let the game flow". Gimme a break! What does that actually mean anyway? Conor Lane and David Gough would be very different types of refs imo. They both reffed the two ´19 finals and I had a good seat on both occassions. The former tends to let a lot go rather than deal with incidents. If you do that at the start of a game then you are going to have problems in high intensity games such as these ones later on. It's difficult to now start pulling for fouls that weren't being pulled earlier - that's where you get charged with inconsistency. Gough is the opposite. He pulls for everything but I've never seen him lose control of a game." .
Well it's good to have an informed opinion from an actual ref but there is another 'issue' at play here - here being the reffing of high profile GAA matches. You make a valid point in contrasting the styles of Gough & Lane in 2019 but lets take the different ref out of the equation and look at say one ref only. Lets also take Mayo out of the equation - that way we might avoid the usual scutter from the usual suspects.
Gough reffed Dublin Kerry in 2016 & again in 2019. Don't know if you watched both games but I did - as a neutral - if only on TV. Do you honestly think both games were reffed in the same manner
I don't and could even call on Jim Gavin as an expert witness. Gavin certainly knows more than I about watching/managing SemiFinals and Finals in Croker. I suspect that he even knows more than most HS posters!
Lets just to take one (controversial) issue from the 2019 - the sending off of Johnny Cooper. Now despite an early yellow and soft (non existent) penalty against Cooper Gavin didn't sub him off or worry that he might be down to 14 men. And yet suddenly before HT Cooper was off and Kerry almost stopped the 5 in a row. They would have only for leaving 2-2 behind in the first 15 mins.
Either Gavin knew thats not how Dublin games are usually reffed or else he had money on Kerry. I suspect the former.
Having said all that I always thought Lane was straight and a competent ref - well up till this year at any rate. He made some poor decisions yesterday and in the Meath & Galway games.
timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 16/08/2021 19:35:23
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Replying To Pericles: "Did Comerford not hop the ball twice?.. that's what I thought at the time and I didn't watch the SG for their slow-moron analysis." Agree, seemed to bounce ball twice, goes to show when the pressure is on they were made to look average. Cluxton was the same, when you pushed up and covered men he more than likely kicked ball over sideline. Done it umpteen times in the past. Schoolboy stuff in the back line when their panicked.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2016 - 16/08/2021 20:08:18
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The only difference between Smalls (awful) tackle on McLaughlin and Michael Murphys (inspirational) tackle on Cooper in 2014 was about a tenth of a second in the timing.
The bloody stupid part is that within 50 years when public reactions like the ones seen in this thread result in physical contact being all but removed from sport ye'll all be giving out about it.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1717 - 16/08/2021 20:47:55
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "Interesting post Sindar and good to get a refs views on matters. On the pulling a jersey I agree it's only a minor foul. However imo a black card can be issued for a deliberate pulldown and that incident was a deliberate pull down (pulling him to the ground by the Jersey). Correct me if I'm wrong but but you can deliberately pull someone down by jersey pulling. On the Small incident I agree that Lane made a wrong call but in real time it did look like a fair shoulder tackle. However Lane did nt have action replay. He should have course stopped play." Mick can you explain how a player can deliver a legal shoulder to shoulder hit when challenging from the front. Small hit McLaughlin on the left side of his chest & his head. No way can a player make a legal hit from that starting position
cluichethar (Mayo) - Posts: 454 - 16/08/2021 21:05:00
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "Interesting post Sindar and good to get a refs views on matters. On the pulling a jersey I agree it's only a minor foul. However imo a black card can be issued for a deliberate pulldown and that incident was a deliberate pull down (pulling him to the ground by the Jersey). Correct me if I'm wrong but but you can deliberately pull someone down by jersey pulling. On the Small incident I agree that Lane made a wrong call but in real time it did look like a fair shoulder tackle. However Lane did nt have action replay. He should have course stopped play." Mick can you explain how a player can deliver a legal shoulder to shoulder hit when challenging from the front. Small hit McLaughlin on the left side of his chest & his head. No way can a player make a legal hit from that starting position
cluichethar (Mayo) - Posts: 454 - 16/08/2021 21:07:21
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Whatever about the incident itself, the fact that the game continued after McLoughlin had been felled and was lying prone on the ground is pretty poor. Lane had to practically step over him to keep up with the game but didn't give him a second glance, and where was the linesman?
festinog (Galway) - Posts: 3097 - 16/08/2021 21:19:35
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Replying To Sindar: "Lots of comments in here about the ref and the on and off the ball incidents. I'm a club ref and unfortuntately tend to watch these games as a ref and not just enjoy it like everyone else. I have empathy for Lane on the Small/McLaughlin tackle. In real time it looked good and the ref only gets real time (no tmo/var in GAA please!) and he has half a sec to make that call. After watching it a gazillion times since it could have been red but definitely a yellow - that's the interpretation between "rough play" and "behaving in a way that is dangerous to an opponent" - subjective. Either way, Lane should have stopped play and he could have done that at any point after the tackle once he realised McLaughlin was not getting up - err on the side of caution which in fairness, most refs do in such instances.
Pundits such as T. O´Sé and O.McC call for a definitite black card for the pull on the jersey (Davy Byrne) but apparently it doesn't fit their image to actually read what the rules state. Pulling a jersey is not a black card offence and it doesn't matter where/when it happens. In fact it is a noting offence only (not even a yellow card!!). Pulling a player by the jersey and that player going to ground is not the same as pulling him to the ground which is a black card. Happy to explain if asked but it's mostly about intent to bring the player down vs slow him down. If they want to argue that the rule should be changed then that's a different matter.
Finally, players and fans alike often call on refs to "let the game flow". Gimme a break! What does that actually mean anyway? Conor Lane and David Gough would be very different types of refs imo. They both reffed the two ´19 finals and I had a good seat on both occassions. The former tends to let a lot go rather than deal with incidents. If you do that at the start of a game then you are going to have problems in high intensity games such as these ones later on. It's difficult to now start pulling for fouls that weren't being pulled earlier - that's where you get charged with inconsistency. Gough is the opposite. He pulls for everything but I've never seen him lose control of a game." Good post. I too can't understand why the 'experts' have such difficulty with the black card rule. The rule states: "To deliberately pull down an opponent". The word 'deliberately' is obviously crucial. So, clearly, the Small/McLoughlin incident did not merit a black card. In any case McLoughlin fell to the ground as if he were in the Euro Finals. And, by the way, the word 'intent' does not feature anywhere in the rules.
Errors - not highlighted - by Conor Lane included a pick-off-the-ground by John Small (37th min) and penalising Davy Byrne (61st min) for over-holding.
Of the two, Gough is by far the better ref.
Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 263 - 16/08/2021 21:41:27
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Replying To Saynothing: "Agree, seemed to bounce ball twice, goes to show when the pressure is on they were made to look average. Cluxton was the same, when you pushed up and covered men he more than likely kicked ball over sideline. Done it umpteen times in the past. Schoolboy stuff in the back line when their panicked." Ha ha fair play to them for mulling through somehow! :D
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 16/08/2021 21:43:20
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Between Caffrey claiming the Small/McLaughlin incident wasn't even a foul on Off The Ball and Gilroy's hilarious attempts to deflect from Dublins advantages on his Sunday Game appearance last December hasn't been the finest hour for former Dublin managers.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 16/08/2021 21:55:43
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Replying To cluichethar: "Mick can you explain how a player can deliver a legal shoulder to shoulder hit when challenging from the front. Small hit McLaughlin on the left side of his chest & his head. No way can a player make a legal hit from that starting position" link
He wasn't challenging from the front.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7359 - 16/08/2021 22:05:42
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Replying To Sindar: "Lots of comments in here about the ref and the on and off the ball incidents. I'm a club ref and unfortuntately tend to watch these games as a ref and not just enjoy it like everyone else. I have empathy for Lane on the Small/McLaughlin tackle. In real time it looked good and the ref only gets real time (no tmo/var in GAA please!) and he has half a sec to make that call. After watching it a gazillion times since it could have been red but definitely a yellow - that's the interpretation between "rough play" and "behaving in a way that is dangerous to an opponent" - subjective. Either way, Lane should have stopped play and he could have done that at any point after the tackle once he realised McLaughlin was not getting up - err on the side of caution which in fairness, most refs do in such instances.
Pundits such as T. O´Sé and O.McC call for a definitite black card for the pull on the jersey (Davy Byrne) but apparently it doesn't fit their image to actually read what the rules state. Pulling a jersey is not a black card offence and it doesn't matter where/when it happens. In fact it is a noting offence only (not even a yellow card!!). Pulling a player by the jersey and that player going to ground is not the same as pulling him to the ground which is a black card. Happy to explain if asked but it's mostly about intent to bring the player down vs slow him down. If they want to argue that the rule should be changed then that's a different matter.
Finally, players and fans alike often call on refs to "let the game flow". Gimme a break! What does that actually mean anyway? Conor Lane and David Gough would be very different types of refs imo. They both reffed the two ´19 finals and I had a good seat on both occassions. The former tends to let a lot go rather than deal with incidents. If you do that at the start of a game then you are going to have problems in high intensity games such as these ones later on. It's difficult to now start pulling for fouls that weren't being pulled earlier - that's where you get charged with inconsistency. Gough is the opposite. He pulls for everything but I've never seen him lose control of a game." Great explanation there Sindar. Has the introduction of the black card made refereeing easier for you and other referees?
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7359 - 16/08/2021 22:24:39
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Replying To Sindar: "Lots of comments in here about the ref and the on and off the ball incidents. I'm a club ref and unfortuntately tend to watch these games as a ref and not just enjoy it like everyone else. I have empathy for Lane on the Small/McLaughlin tackle. In real time it looked good and the ref only gets real time (no tmo/var in GAA please!) and he has half a sec to make that call. After watching it a gazillion times since it could have been red but definitely a yellow - that's the interpretation between "rough play" and "behaving in a way that is dangerous to an opponent" - subjective. Either way, Lane should have stopped play and he could have done that at any point after the tackle once he realised McLaughlin was not getting up - err on the side of caution which in fairness, most refs do in such instances.
Pundits such as T. O´Sé and O.McC call for a definitite black card for the pull on the jersey (Davy Byrne) but apparently it doesn't fit their image to actually read what the rules state. Pulling a jersey is not a black card offence and it doesn't matter where/when it happens. In fact it is a noting offence only (not even a yellow card!!). Pulling a player by the jersey and that player going to ground is not the same as pulling him to the ground which is a black card. Happy to explain if asked but it's mostly about intent to bring the player down vs slow him down. If they want to argue that the rule should be changed then that's a different matter.
Finally, players and fans alike often call on refs to "let the game flow". Gimme a break! What does that actually mean anyway? Conor Lane and David Gough would be very different types of refs imo. They both reffed the two ´19 finals and I had a good seat on both occassions. The former tends to let a lot go rather than deal with incidents. If you do that at the start of a game then you are going to have problems in high intensity games such as these ones later on. It's difficult to now start pulling for fouls that weren't being pulled earlier - that's where you get charged with inconsistency. Gough is the opposite. He pulls for everything but I've never seen him lose control of a game." I agree refs have an awful hard job. A rivalry like Dublin mayo will spill over at some point during the game. Whatever about the calls he got wrong not stopping the game for McLaughlins injury is for me the issue. Like you said err on the side of caution. It was a horrible decision. The man needed immediate attention and Lane was to blame for him not getting it
I can completely understand how the man could get the call wrong on it being a fair tackle now Mcstay fawning over Dublin with the benefit of the replays we all saw and all could see as a straight red was stomach churning. Our money pays these people good money and they get other jobs from it- why can the punditry be so poor and they have no fear of being dismissed
Staunton called out the refs poor performance and Cantwell jumped in to have a joke about having her Mayo hat on - almost dismissing her, similar to spillane trying to defend Clifford from accusations of hand holding when replays were clearly showing he was fouled (
galwayfball (Galway) - Posts: 1678 - 16/08/2021 22:24:44
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Replying To Aibrean: "Good post. I too can't understand why the 'experts' have such difficulty with the black card rule. The rule states: "To deliberately pull down an opponent". The word 'deliberately' is obviously crucial. So, clearly, the Small/McLoughlin incident did not merit a black card. In any case McLoughlin fell to the ground as if he were in the Euro Finals. And, by the way, the word 'intent' does not feature anywhere in the rules.
Errors - not highlighted - by Conor Lane included a pick-off-the-ground by John Small (37th min) and penalising Davy Byrne (61st min) for over-holding.
Of the two, Gough is by far the better ref." Of the two, Gough is by far the better ref.
Well given that the Kerry fans were throwing bottles (plastic IIRC) and other detritus at Gough after the 2016 Dublin game one hopes for his sake Lane never has to be on the receiving end of their opinions.
Wouldn't life be grand if Cormac Reilly could ref all Kerry's big games ;-)
Although to be fair Gough had nothing thrown at him after the drawn game in 2019.
timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 16/08/2021 22:41:01
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Replying To Saynothing: "Agree, seemed to bounce ball twice, goes to show when the pressure is on they were made to look average. Cluxton was the same, when you pushed up and covered men he more than likely kicked ball over sideline. Done it umpteen times in the past. Schoolboy stuff in the back line when their panicked." He didn't bounce the ball once during that passage of play, only soloed it. If that's overcarrying then the whistle would be blown 4 or 5 times every minute.
Gavvygavgav (Dublin) - Posts: 383 - 16/08/2021 22:43:57
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Replying To Saynothing: "Agree, seemed to bounce ball twice, goes to show when the pressure is on they were made to look average. Cluxton was the same, when you pushed up and covered men he more than likely kicked ball over sideline. Done it umpteen times in the past. Schoolboy stuff in the back line when their panicked." Ye you're right Cluxton was only an average keeper. You should have taken him for a few sessions and showed his what to do in those situations.
Leftpeg1 (Westmeath) - Posts: 89 - 16/08/2021 22:47:11
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Replying To Sindar: "Lots of comments in here about the ref and the on and off the ball incidents. I'm a club ref and unfortuntately tend to watch these games as a ref and not just enjoy it like everyone else. I have empathy for Lane on the Small/McLaughlin tackle. In real time it looked good and the ref only gets real time (no tmo/var in GAA please!) and he has half a sec to make that call. After watching it a gazillion times since it could have been red but definitely a yellow - that's the interpretation between "rough play" and "behaving in a way that is dangerous to an opponent" - subjective. Either way, Lane should have stopped play and he could have done that at any point after the tackle once he realised McLaughlin was not getting up - err on the side of caution which in fairness, most refs do in such instances.
Pundits such as T. O´Sé and O.McC call for a definitite black card for the pull on the jersey (Davy Byrne) but apparently it doesn't fit their image to actually read what the rules state. Pulling a jersey is not a black card offence and it doesn't matter where/when it happens. In fact it is a noting offence only (not even a yellow card!!). Pulling a player by the jersey and that player going to ground is not the same as pulling him to the ground which is a black card. Happy to explain if asked but it's mostly about intent to bring the player down vs slow him down. If they want to argue that the rule should be changed then that's a different matter.
Finally, players and fans alike often call on refs to "let the game flow". Gimme a break! What does that actually mean anyway? Conor Lane and David Gough would be very different types of refs imo. They both reffed the two ´19 finals and I had a good seat on both occassions. The former tends to let a lot go rather than deal with incidents. If you do that at the start of a game then you are going to have problems in high intensity games such as these ones later on. It's difficult to now start pulling for fouls that weren't being pulled earlier - that's where you get charged with inconsistency. Gough is the opposite. He pulls for everything but I've never seen him lose control of a game." Sindar... Genuine question from a health professional who covers sports fixtures to a referee-
How can you argue that this "could have been red but definitely a yellow - that's the interpretation between "rough play" and "behaving in a way that is dangerous to an opponent" - subjective"- How can it be subjective?
McLaughlin has the ball.
He is deliberately and forcefully challenged for the ball by John Small.
As a result of that forceful and deliberate challenge he quite apparently loses consciousness and falls to the floor.
The medical staff immediately determine that he must be triple immobilised and place on a spinal scoop to be safely extricated from the field of play.
How can a referee determine that this outcome for Eoghan McLaughlin was the result anything other than the result of John Small "behaving in a way that is dangerous to an opponent"? By definition?
I don't see how this is, as you have said a "subjective call"? Clearly it's a deliberate action from John Small- he has intended to make a legitimate tackle. And quite clearly in doing so he has endangered Eoghan McLaughlin.
Any possible sanction other than a red card in this instance surely makes the game unsafe does it not?
roundball (Tipperary) - Posts: 2514 - 16/08/2021 23:10:16
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