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Replying To bloodyban: "There's a heavy layer of victim culture in Republicans. It's been fostered and fed for many years by governments on both sides of the Irish sea. It has permeated down through Northern Irish Republicanism. Goes something like 'we are the most oppressed people in these Islands period'. Tends to stop there, no debate is welcomed.
The facts that Irish Republicans killed more people throughout the troubles than anyone else is a fairly terrible statistic yet its blithely brushed off. The problem with interactions between Southern and Northern GAA members is for the first time their world view is challenged by us saying 'GIVE over your nonsense' . Iv played Northern Teams and if the sledging starts then yeah I'd often tell them they are British. So what..all part of it. Let them boil up all they want. They call us Free Staters.. God I take that as a great compliment. Our big mistake down south is taking too much notice of Northerners." The IRA killed less civilians, ie people who werent members of Loyalist paramilitaries or the armed forces, than the various loyalist paramilitaries, particularly the UDA/UFF more so than the UVF, and crown forces. Anyway this is dragging up a past which hurts the future so best is to leave it in the past. If we end up in a situation where future generations on the island are healthy, prosperous and happy then maybe all that loss of life wont have been in vain.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12009 - 30/07/2021 14:15:34
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Replying To AfricanGael: "Fair play to the Dublin supporters who every time they're in Omagh ay flowers where Aidan Mc Anespie was gunned down going to play football .
I hope they also lay flowers for Detective Garda Adrian Donohoe at the Lordship Credit Union" Adrian Donohue was murdered by gangsters in the course of his work. Sad though that is it has nothing to do with the GAA and a lad who was murdered on his way to a GAA ground.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12009 - 30/07/2021 14:27:00
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I have the upmost respect for GAA members in Ulster, You undoubtedly had to greatly suffer just to be part of the games.
Directly targeted by an oppressive state sanctioned cohort, simply because you liked a certain type of sport. People lost their lives for enjoying a certain way of striking a ball..
We didn't have to worry about such stuff at all, if the shoe was on the other foot we'd be making plenty of noise about such treatment.
It would be deafening and we'd take great pride from our efforts to continually defy the odds.
It's impossible to understand the level of threat you had to endure. You lived your everyday lives in a war zone. There has to be a PTSD linked mental state there, both full blown and simply inherited.
Ulster fans have every right to carry the scars of such desperate ill treatment. I simply just don't get it and never will.
I absolutely applaud you and if it means anything at all, I for one greatly respect you and recognise the dire situation you've undoubtedly been through just to call yourself a GAA fan.
You're made of the right stuff boys and girls.
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 30/07/2021 14:30:40
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Replying To Donegal_abroad: " Replying To AfricanGael: "Suffering in Ireland didn't just start when the troubles in the North began, millions of people on the whole island of Ireland suffered for centuries but I understand you are talking about recent history but it's also important not to pick and choose to suit a narrative by comparing "relatively peaceful lives of southern nationalists" to Northern nationalists, otherwise we can also say that the "Northern nationalists" had relatively good lives compared to children who were starved to death due to famine in Ethiopia, so it's a pointless exercise.
Is the woman who is sleeping in a car in Dublin with her children today through no fault of her own suffering more than a lad being called a fenian in the North because he is a member of a GAA club, I think any reasonable person would say she is, so we must be very careful of not abusing the word "suffering".
The GAA is built on tribalism, sledging is common among players and even more among supporters, all you have to do is read this forum to see that, so when tribalism meets victim mentality there can only be one outcome.
Where is the evidence that any significant amount of people "from the 26 sneer at people in the 6 for being victims of partition" outside of trolling comments which people from every county are a victim of ?
I never heard anyone refer to a team from the North as being British and believed that they in any way felt that to be true so I think there is some victim mentality at play here." Okay then, we could start talking about victims of suffering across the globe I suppose and where does that conversation end!? That's a strange tact to take! I'm not picking and choosing any narrative… I was specifically talking about the item being discussed which was digs at peoples' national identity. I said that I find it odious how Irish people in the 6 counties have had their nationality undermined at times by some people in the 26 counties in a sneering manner. As if partition was something to laugh at them about and all that went with that. Also, I think members of GAA clubs during the troubles experienced much worse than simply being called 'fenians.' That's downplaying the intimidation and harassment many went through. There were no Aidan McAnespies in the 26 counties during those years anyway. If you have never heard anyone refer to a team or person from the north in GAA circles as British, well I have I can assure you. I have personally experienced it and I'm from Donegal, I was called British and not in jest, laughable to me as I've had that peaceful upbringing denied to so many in my neighbouring counties so it didn't bother me. But for someone from Strabane or Derry or Enniskillen, it's hateful stuff. I've heard plenty of discussions about nordies and the Queen, Brits etc and at times in GAA conversations. You've never heard that stuff, good for you. It's funny how northern nationalists who are mocked by (some) southern nationalists are engaging in a 'victim mentality.' Would you use that term to describe the experiences of other groups?"
"I never heard anyone refer to a team from the North as being British and believed that they in any way felt that to be true"
In others words, at no point did I believe anyone ushering such words actually believed that what they were saying was true.
Surely we can all recognize something that is said with tongue in cheek ?
No, I actually think the Irish are well up there when it comes to victim mentality, North and South.
There will always be a way to blame someone else for everything that is shambolic in Ireland, usually England.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 30/07/2021 14:35:18
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Replying To bloodyban: "There's a heavy layer of victim culture in Republicans. It's been fostered and fed for many years by governments on both sides of the Irish sea. It has permeated down through Northern Irish Republicanism. Goes something like 'we are the most oppressed people in these Islands period'. Tends to stop there, no debate is welcomed.
The facts that Irish Republicans killed more people throughout the troubles than anyone else is a fairly terrible statistic yet its blithely brushed off. The problem with interactions between Southern and Northern GAA members is for the first time their world view is challenged by us saying 'GIVE over your nonsense' . Iv played Northern Teams and if the sledging starts then yeah I'd often tell them they are British. So what..all part of it. Let them boil up all they want. They call us Free Staters.. God I take that as a great compliment. Our big mistake down south is taking too much notice of Northerners." Come on man your generalizing a whole community totally unfair. What's coming out about collusion between loyalist paramilitaries, British army and British government, there are people within the British establishment should have gone on trail in The Hague. Alot of the troubles could have being avoided if the British government got help from the UN and used an impartial outside peace keeping group between both communities but no they sent in their own army with their agenda to follow. You go on about republican victimhood look how the loyalists glorify someone the likes of Stevie McKeigue.
DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 1038 - 30/07/2021 14:44:01
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Replying To Viking66: "Adrian Donohue was murdered by gangsters in the course of his work. Sad though that is it has nothing to do with the GAA and a lad who was murdered on his way to a GAA ground." Ah look it, don't try and say the loss of one life is less significant than the other just because one victim was on his way to a GAA ground and the other was doing his job and looking forward to go home to his wife and kids.
And then imply that Aidan McAnespie was murdered solely because he was a member of a GAA club and not because he may have been a nationalist.
Such a disrespectful and uneducated comment.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 30/07/2021 14:44:46
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Replying To Viking66: "Adrian Donohue was murdered by gangsters in the course of his work. Sad though that is it has nothing to do with the GAA and a lad who was murdered on his way to a GAA ground." I would advise you to read up on the investigation into the murder of Adrian Donohue very carefully before replying with such a ludicrous and disrespectful comment.
Join the dots, that's all I'll say to you.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 30/07/2021 14:50:31
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Replying To AfricanGael: "Ah look it, don't try and say the loss of one life is less significant than the other just because one victim was on his way to a GAA ground and the other was doing his job and looking forward to go home to his wife and kids.
And then imply that Aidan McAnespie was murdered solely because he was a member of a GAA club and not because he may have been a nationalist.
Such a disrespectful and uneducated comment." "Because he might have been a nationalist"
I think you perfectly define the uneducated on here time and time again.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 30/07/2021 15:02:06
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Replying To AfricanGael: " Replying To Donegal_abroad: "[quote=AfricanGael: "Suffering in Ireland didn't just start when the troubles in the North began, millions of people on the whole island of Ireland suffered for centuries but I understand you are talking about recent history but it's also important not to pick and choose to suit a narrative by comparing "relatively peaceful lives of southern nationalists" to Northern nationalists, otherwise we can also say that the "Northern nationalists" had relatively good lives compared to children who were starved to death due to famine in Ethiopia, so it's a pointless exercise.
Is the woman who is sleeping in a car in Dublin with her children today through no fault of her own suffering more than a lad being called a fenian in the North because he is a member of a GAA club, I think any reasonable person would say she is, so we must be very careful of not abusing the word "suffering".
The GAA is built on tribalism, sledging is common among players and even more among supporters, all you have to do is read this forum to see that, so when tribalism meets victim mentality there can only be one outcome.
Where is the evidence that any significant amount of people "from the 26 sneer at people in the 6 for being victims of partition" outside of trolling comments which people from every county are a victim of ?
I never heard anyone refer to a team from the North as being British and believed that they in any way felt that to be true so I think there is some victim mentality at play here." Okay then, we could start talking about victims of suffering across the globe I suppose and where does that conversation end!? That's a strange tact to take! I'm not picking and choosing any narrative… I was specifically talking about the item being discussed which was digs at peoples' national identity. I said that I find it odious how Irish people in the 6 counties have had their nationality undermined at times by some people in the 26 counties in a sneering manner. As if partition was something to laugh at them about and all that went with that. Also, I think members of GAA clubs during the troubles experienced much worse than simply being called 'fenians.' That's downplaying the intimidation and harassment many went through. There were no Aidan McAnespies in the 26 counties during those years anyway. If you have never heard anyone refer to a team or person from the north in GAA circles as British, well I have I can assure you. I have personally experienced it and I'm from Donegal, I was called British and not in jest, laughable to me as I've had that peaceful upbringing denied to so many in my neighbouring counties so it didn't bother me. But for someone from Strabane or Derry or Enniskillen, it's hateful stuff. I've heard plenty of discussions about nordies and the Queen, Brits etc and at times in GAA conversations. You've never heard that stuff, good for you. It's funny how northern nationalists who are mocked by (some) southern nationalists are engaging in a 'victim mentality.' Would you use that term to describe the experiences of other groups?"
"I never heard anyone refer to a team from the North as being British and believed that they in any way felt that to be true"
In others words, at no point did I believe anyone ushering such words actually believed that what they were saying was true.
Surely we can all recognize something that is said with tongue in cheek ?
No, I actually think the Irish are well up there when it comes to victim mentality, North and South.
There will always be a way to blame someone else for everything that is shambolic in Ireland, usually England."]I don't think those kind of remarks can be regarded as tongue in cheek given the systemic undermining of Irish nationality in the 6 counties and the death, harassment, gerrymandering and lack of civil rights which accompanied it, no. Same way I wouldn't mock black South Africans for being victims of apartheid.
By the way, I actually agree with much of what you're saying in that post about moving on. I do agree certainly that harping on about the past indefinitely isn't healthy in any walk of life. That doesn't mean we can't be respectful though of the past. I think it's okay to have views about moving on while simultaneously not sneering at the identity of northern nationalists. That kind of stuff doesn't really equate to moving on.
Donegal_abroad (Donegal) - Posts: 1321 - 30/07/2021 15:23:30
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Replying To SaffronDon: "Putting what words in your mouth? They're your own words I'm quoting. Although you did decide to retaliate in kind to your perceived injustice I see. That wasn't a Dublin quote it was a Spillane quote when Kerry beat Donegal using extremely defensive tactics, something he used to call 'puke football'. It was celebrated on here at the time. Nice try with the drama queen act about it though 'most ridiculous things I've read on here' maybe stop whining, eh?
"Hate" is a strong word by the way, sporting banter doesn't begin to cover it, but politics and conflict can sum it up perfectly, of course you still don't get that so I haven't really anything left to discuss with you at this stage." There's no drama queen element to what I said. For you to make out that Dublin football gets nothing but positive credit for what they have achieved defies all logic and evidence, and makes no sense whatsoever, so I think that qualifies as ridiculous.
I'm struggling to remember a time I've come across anyone make such a bizarre claim.
It's been by far and away the most talked about issue in the gaa since 2016 like.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1717 - 30/07/2021 15:29:31
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Replying To AfricanGael: " Replying To Galway9801: "[quote=AfricanGael: "Suffering in Ireland didn't just start when the troubles in the North began, millions of people on the whole island of Ireland suffered for centuries but I understand you are talking about recent history but it's also important not to pick and choose to suit a narrative by comparing "relatively peaceful lives of southern nationalists" to Northern nationalists, otherwise we can also say that the "Northern nationalists" had relatively good lives compared to children who were starved to death due to famine in Ethiopia, so it's a pointless exercise.
Is the woman who is sleeping in a car in Dublin with her children today through no fault of her own suffering more than a lad being called a fenian in the North because he is a member of a GAA club, I think any reasonable person would say she is, so we must be very careful of not abusing the word "suffering".
The GAA is built on tribalism, sledging is common among players and even more among supporters, all you have to do is read this forum to see that, so when tribalism meets victim mentality there can only be one outcome.
Where is the evidence that any significant amount of people "from the 26 sneer at people in the 6 for being victims of partition" outside of trolling comments which people from every county are a victim of ?
I never heard anyone refer to a team from the North as being British and believed that they in any way felt that to be true so I think there is some victim mentality at play here." Another good post from you. You're making a habit of this lately"
:-)."]Anyone who dislikes anyone for what they post on an anonymous forum really isnt worth caring about Africangael:-D
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12009 - 30/07/2021 16:39:12
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Replying To Galway9801: "There's no drama queen element to what I said. For you to make out that Dublin football gets nothing but positive credit for what they have achieved defies all logic and evidence, and makes no sense whatsoever, so I think that qualifies as ridiculous.
I'm struggling to remember a time I've come across anyone make such a bizarre claim.
It's been by far and away the most talked about issue in the gaa since 2016 like." I'll correct you again. I never said Dublin recieve only positive credit. I actually gave you a breakdown of how people view them and the nature of those views which you chose to ignore and ran back to your previous rant obviously. Bizarre indeed!
I dont remember any anti Dublin/Kerry/Kilkenny threads being shut down due of the toxic nature of messages being sent. This thread is likely heading that way just like many before it about the North. But you go ahead and pretend like it never happens if it makes you feel better.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 30/07/2021 17:37:32
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Replying To SaffronDon: ""Because he might have been a nationalist"
I think you perfectly define the uneducated on here time and time again." Says it all doesn't it. Deeply familiar with what reality was in Tyrone and elsewhere is our AG....
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2577 - 30/07/2021 17:51:35
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "Says it all doesn't it. Deeply familiar with what reality was in Tyrone and elsewhere is our AG...." He wouldnt last long in a game of poker would he
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 30/07/2021 18:15:24
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Replying To SaffronDon: "I'll correct you again. I never said Dublin recieve only positive credit. I actually gave you a breakdown of how people view them and the nature of those views which you chose to ignore and ran back to your previous rant obviously. Bizarre indeed!
I dont remember any anti Dublin/Kerry/Kilkenny threads being shut down due of the toxic nature of messages being sent. This thread is likely heading that way just like many before it about the North. But you go ahead and pretend like it never happens if it makes you feel better." The most toxic threads on this forum over the last few years have all involved the issue of Dublins success, its up to admin whether or not to shut them down, but introducing politics and nationalism into a debate puts moderators on an awkward position.
For example, saying that Dublin have bought their success is far more controversial and debatable than saying that both sides in the North have blood on their hands, but the latter claim involves history, social opinions etc, is more likely to stir up tensions between posters,and the thread more likely to end up being shut down.
Back to the point at hand, you said in a previous post that whenever Dublin or kerry achieve success it's put down to "the cream rising to the top", it was a totally inaccurate thing to say, but, those were the words you used, I don't know why you're denying it.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1717 - 30/07/2021 19:16:26
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Replying To Galway9801: "The most toxic threads on this forum over the last few years have all involved the issue of Dublins success, its up to admin whether or not to shut them down, but introducing politics and nationalism into a debate puts moderators on an awkward position.
For example, saying that Dublin have bought their success is far more controversial and debatable than saying that both sides in the North have blood on their hands, but the latter claim involves history, social opinions etc, is more likely to stir up tensions between posters,and the thread more likely to end up being shut down.
Back to the point at hand, you said in a previous post that whenever Dublin or kerry achieve success it's put down to "the cream rising to the top", it was a totally inaccurate thing to say, but, those were the words you used, I don't know why you're denying it." OK this is the 3rd message in a row that you've made up blatant lies about what I've said. If you can't understand that 'cream rising to the top' comment at this stage I cant help you any further.
What you wrote above that is also complete nonsense from start to finish. A sports team taking flack over their success is in no way more serious than people's livelihoods and their basic civil rights that you obviously take for granted where you live. Its a shame you think that way and it's clear you won't listen either so we really don't have anything left to discuss here.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 30/07/2021 22:03:45
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Replying To SaffronDon: ""Because he might have been a nationalist"
I think you perfectly define the uneducated on here time and time again." So true.
seamusorinn (USA) - Posts: 295 - 31/07/2021 01:16:26
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Replying To Viking66: "Adrian Donohue was murdered by gangsters in the course of his work. Sad though that is it has nothing to do with the GAA and a lad who was murdered on his way to a GAA ground." What's that got to do with Tyrone or Dublin fans? Stop this crap. Garda Donohue is a hero and we all rightly celebrate his heroism.
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11236 - 31/07/2021 05:19:04
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Replying To SaffronDon: "OK this is the 3rd message in a row that you've made up blatant lies about what I've said. If you can't understand that 'cream rising to the top' comment at this stage I cant help you any further.
What you wrote above that is also complete nonsense from start to finish. A sports team taking flack over their success is in no way more serious than people's livelihoods and their basic civil rights that you obviously take for granted where you live. Its a shame you think that way and it's clear you won't listen either so we really don't have anything left to discuss here." Jeez you just don't get it do you?
I never said sport was more serious than people's rights, of course its not for Gods sake.
Read my post again,properly, and calmly this time, and then just stop replying, we're bloody well getting nowhere here.
I'm out.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1717 - 31/07/2021 11:45:06
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Replying To SaffronDon: ""Because he might have been a nationalist"
I think you perfectly define the uneducated on here time and time again." Thankfully SaffronDon I was educated enough to be able to read something and understand it, which is clearly more than can be said for yourself, BarneyGrant , seamusorinn and all the other thumbs up yahooers at a similar level which you attract.
Anyone who needs to resort to what you done and snip a full quote of mine and then trying to pass it off as a standalone comment is the one who needs to be educated but don't worry AG is here to help you.
This is what your mate Viking66 (Wexford) wrote :
"Adrian Donohue was murdered by gangsters in the course of his work. Sad though that is it has nothing to do with the GAA and a lad who was murdered on his way to a GAA ground"
And this was my reply to him:
"And then imply that Aidan McAnespie was murdered solely because he was a member of a GAA club and not because he may have been a nationalist"
Do I really need to explain to you, BarneyGrant, seamusorinn and the other yahooers in minute detail what my point is, it's pretty simple to understand really.
My point is that it is wrong and inappropriate to imply in any way that Aidan McAnespie was murdered just because he was a member of a GAA club, it is disrespectful actually and comes across as if the GAA are seeking out free publicity from the murder of an innocent lad, because it is irrelevant what sport the boy was involved in or where he was going at the time, he was passing a checkpoint and the question to Viking66 was that does he not consider that maybe Aidan McAnespie was shot merely because he was a nationalist, any nationalist and regardless of where he was going when he was passing a checkpoint, so to imply that he was murdered simply because of his involvement in the GAA is totally disrespectful.
Because that is like saying that it was the GAA which was targeted and that is simply not true, do you really believe that if Aidan McAnespie was wearing a Celtic jersey that he wouldn't have been murdered.
When Viking66 wrote:
"Adrian Donohue was murdered by gangsters in the course of his work. Sad though that is it has nothing to do with the GAA and a lad who was murdered on his way to a GAA ground"
"it has nothing to do with the GAA"
So by saying this, what Viking66 is saying here is that Aidan McAnespie's murder had something to do with the GAA and because of that it is somehow worse than the murder of Detective Adrian Donohue, that is such a disrespectful comment to make.
Detective Adrian Donohue never returned home to his wife and young kids because he was murdered by thugs who then ran home north of the border.
So before you start snipping half sentences again I'd appreciate if you might first read the whole post, however many times you need to understand it SaffronDon.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 31/07/2021 11:50:38
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