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Rose Tinted Glasses.

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Replying To avonali:  "Lots of talk about how boring robotic etc modern football has become. Looking back on a few All_Irelands from the70s I was struck with just how awful the game was. The folllowing typified GAA football in the past.

Aimless hoofing of the ball into the other half.

The awful handpass/throw- what an abomination that was

Tackles that would get you red carded on a rubgy pitch. Have a look at Brian Mullins' tackle on Ger Power in second half of '77 fina!

The terrible point taking.

Poor officiating

Are we looking back on the past with rose tinted glasses?? What do people consider the Golden Age of GAA football? What was the greatest final??? Any chance we could keep this thread free of the usual Dublin V Kerry BS???"
sorry, that should have read '77 semi-final of course. The so called 'greatest game of all time'.

avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1813 - 23/06/2021 10:40:27    2352786

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The best footbal is always in the future, it is as should be really, the game needs to breath, progress, innovate and evolve. we will look back in future decades at the last 20 years as not as good as 20 years time.

Its a good thing really, the game grows, innovates and evolves.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4125 - 23/06/2021 10:43:21    2352787

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "To be honest it's very hard to compare eras like music sport etc as time changes everything.Everything changes like technology etc and yes it's better but is it more appealing? For younger people yes. Every sport athletes get faster stronger. Look at heavyweight boxing. Muhammed Ali "The Greatest" well he would nt be big enough to be a heavyweight today. The games yesteryear were very entertaining for their time but that time has gone. The game now has its entertainment value and in 20 years time people will look back and say the games now were nt great. I suppose its all about perception really. The skill level as a rule is much better nowadays But and it's a big but with hurling in particular I think its too easy score now and that takes the entertainment value away a little."
I totally agree with this Mick. I remember as a kid watching the Dublin V. Kerry games of the 70s and being utterly enthralled. Yes, they were very entertaining. And I think if you looked back on the older recorded games form earlier decades you would have concluded that the brand played in the 70s was far superior. WE thought we were looking at the best players of all time.
All sports evolve. The powerful serve/volley male tennis players-assisted by changes in racket spelt the end of the rally and denied us the pleasure of seeing players use a diverse range of shots: lobbies, backhands, chips etc. The serves were awesome in their power but they radically changed the dynamic of game.
Look at rugby. There are no Phil Davies or Gareth Edwards now. It's all about power. You're right. It's the application of sports analytics, strength and conditioning, skill specific coaching, You need access to great resources One of the effects of all is the virtual disappearance of brilliant individualism. Graft, gym work, coaching, teamwork and higher levels of aerobic fitness have somehow negated flair, risk taking and to use Kerryboy's phrase, "off the cuff".
Let's face it. GAA football is mongrel by comparison to hurling. As such it is open to influences from other sports like basketball, rugby Aussie Rules and arguably soccer. It stands to reason that the those teams with the greatest resources are going to excel in this new version of our game. WE won't have another decade like the 90s where we had. multiple winners unless the game evolves in a new surprising direction.
The fact that we have had some thrilling finals in the last few years can't mask the fact that there have been some awful spectacles and my impression is the the overall health of the game as a form of entertainment has greatly disimproved.
The Championship now features a lot of one sided thrashings that are terrible to watch.
I think it's simplistic to blame any one team for this unfortunate fact. All teams want to win and apart from natural talent you also need resources to win. Sport is organic and it evolves dialectically. WE are looking at an interesting stage now. WE had the application of the blanket and teams have had to evolve systems and strategies to overcome that. I think the Donegal of 2012 team utilised the blanket and added a swift counterattacking style to it and it won them an All-Ireland. After 2014, the Dubs took elements of the blanket system and transcended it. I think Kerry may have learnt from that. I think it's simplistic to hold that Kerry are going back to their "original off the cuff" style. They will surely use their natural attacking flair but that will be underpinned by all that they have learnt from Dublin's success. I predict that Kerry win this year and repeat that feat. Other well resourced teams -Dublin Mayo Tyrone for example -will go back to the drawing board and evolve a winning system. I doubt that it is ever going to be possible for any team outside the top 5-6 teams will ever win an All_Ireland again as long as access to resources has such an influence on results.

avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1813 - 23/06/2021 11:19:50    2352797

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Replying To avonali:  "I totally agree with this Mick. I remember as a kid watching the Dublin V. Kerry games of the 70s and being utterly enthralled. Yes, they were very entertaining. And I think if you looked back on the older recorded games form earlier decades you would have concluded that the brand played in the 70s was far superior. WE thought we were looking at the best players of all time.
All sports evolve. The powerful serve/volley male tennis players-assisted by changes in racket spelt the end of the rally and denied us the pleasure of seeing players use a diverse range of shots: lobbies, backhands, chips etc. The serves were awesome in their power but they radically changed the dynamic of game.
Look at rugby. There are no Phil Davies or Gareth Edwards now. It's all about power. You're right. It's the application of sports analytics, strength and conditioning, skill specific coaching, You need access to great resources One of the effects of all is the virtual disappearance of brilliant individualism. Graft, gym work, coaching, teamwork and higher levels of aerobic fitness have somehow negated flair, risk taking and to use Kerryboy's phrase, "off the cuff".
Let's face it. GAA football is mongrel by comparison to hurling. As such it is open to influences from other sports like basketball, rugby Aussie Rules and arguably soccer. It stands to reason that the those teams with the greatest resources are going to excel in this new version of our game. WE won't have another decade like the 90s where we had. multiple winners unless the game evolves in a new surprising direction.
The fact that we have had some thrilling finals in the last few years can't mask the fact that there have been some awful spectacles and my impression is the the overall health of the game as a form of entertainment has greatly disimproved.
The Championship now features a lot of one sided thrashings that are terrible to watch.
I think it's simplistic to blame any one team for this unfortunate fact. All teams want to win and apart from natural talent you also need resources to win. Sport is organic and it evolves dialectically. WE are looking at an interesting stage now. WE had the application of the blanket and teams have had to evolve systems and strategies to overcome that. I think the Donegal of 2012 team utilised the blanket and added a swift counterattacking style to it and it won them an All-Ireland. After 2014, the Dubs took elements of the blanket system and transcended it. I think Kerry may have learnt from that. I think it's simplistic to hold that Kerry are going back to their "original off the cuff" style. They will surely use their natural attacking flair but that will be underpinned by all that they have learnt from Dublin's success. I predict that Kerry win this year and repeat that feat. Other well resourced teams -Dublin Mayo Tyrone for example -will go back to the drawing board and evolve a winning system. I doubt that it is ever going to be possible for any team outside the top 5-6 teams will ever win an All_Ireland again as long as access to resources has such an influence on results."
Yes Avon the role of the special individual has dwindled but still some brilliant ballers around at the mó. After reading your post you have me thinking about Gareth Edwards try for the Barbarians v all blacks. IMO the greatest try ever. One can't blame any team for the current game as one team finds a system that works for victory and the next team perfects it and so on. You are right too about the finals masking some of the poorer games that go on. We ve been lucky with the finals but there s been many poor games too. While individualism is nt as prevalent as years gone by there is always room for those special players. Things keep evolving sometimes for the better and sometimes not but cest la vie. I also agree sadly that the chances of any team outside of the top bracket winning in the near future are very low unless the gaa help them with resources etc. So many of the lower tier teams don't even have their best players playing more s the pity.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 2712 - 23/06/2021 12:04:28    2352806

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Replying To TheUsername:  "The best footbal is always in the future, it is as should be really, the game needs to breath, progress, innovate and evolve. we will look back in future decades at the last 20 years as not as good as 20 years time.

Its a good thing really, the game grows, innovates and evolves."
True and it has to be. In sport in general though they are spoilt compared to years ago. Take boxing. Years ago pro boxing 15 rounds (I'd die) less money bad training conditions. Soccer brutal pitches less money. Gaa poorer pitches and at club level cold showers in dirty dressing rooms buy your own shorts and socks and the club will supply the Jersey. Half time drinks sipping out of the same bottles. Different times and while I know older people (much older than me) used to say things like "there were no hamstrings in my time" but you know there were far less injuries in gaa or soccer then eventhough the pitches were rougher.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 2712 - 23/06/2021 12:13:46    2352807

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Yeah I'd agree that games from years gone by almost look like different sports compared to what we see nowadays. Sports science, nutrition, data analytics, learning from other sports etc has changed the game so much in the last 20 odd years. Tactics on All Ireland Gold are very rudimentary indeed. Retaining possession wasn't nearly as important, the be all and end all was beating your man to the ball and manufacturing a score as quickly as possible.

Brolly and co hark back to the golden days when they were simpler times and I agree to an extent with him. You could argue now that even club football has become way too serious. Lads are expected to live sheltered, disciplined lives for much of the year for what is meant to be a fun hobby or pass-time. But then again young fellas are a lot different nowadays than what they were even 20 years ago. We live in an Instagram age where looking and feeling good are very important to our youth. So what may seem like a ridiculous commitment to club football to us, isn't seen as big deal to them. It's a sacrifice to make to keep fit and earn kudos in the local community and beyond by being the best they can be.

But if we're talking just in terms of the game as a spectacle I'd have to say that the game is more skillful today and better to watch. I'd love to see more kick passing though, can agree with Spillane there, If a county footballer isn't able to, or isn't trusted to deliver a thirty or forty yard kick pass to a man's chest or into space then he isn't much of a footballer in my opinion.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 7396 - 23/06/2021 12:14:36    2352809

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The game today is light years ahead in every way. Might not be as much craic off the pitch but that is a personal decision for everyone involved so I hate listening to the whinging about that as well.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7296 - 23/06/2021 12:31:58    2352819

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Totally agree with the opening post.

But you don't even have to go as far back as the 70s.

I watched the 2006 Dublin V Mayo semi final only a few weeks ago. Dubbed one of the best games of the decade.

Truly awful stuff. Hoofing the ball. Stray passes left right and center. Horrible shooting. Bad wide after bad wide. Honestly if you watched that game today you would say it was an awful standard of football.

So we definitely have the rose tinted glasses on.

The standard of the recent Dublin Kerry finals of 2019 was exceptional really. And no one can tell me they were boring. No one. Regardless of who you were up for.

ConnollyDub (Dublin) - Posts: 1992 - 23/06/2021 13:04:49    2352832

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I'm sure football in the 70's was better than football in the 30's or 40's so comparing todays football to the 70's is a pointless exercise.

I'm also sure some of the best games ever played were full of mistakes. "Best" games do not have equate to best skills or techniques, if you judge sport in that way, then I suggest you stop watching it.

Football is not fun when it becomes too robotic, process orientated and clinical.

I believe in the long term such robotic football is not only damaging to the game but damaging to the GAA as well, but I also believe it will do the full circle once the robotic system has been smashed to bits by good players who are allowed to express themselves without the fear of their wired up baseball cap wearing manager throwing his evil eye at them, in other words the wrath of the joystick holder.

As for golden age, we are nowhere near it, in the future people may look at this era as the dark age of football.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1946 - 23/06/2021 13:07:49    2352833

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Replying To ConnollyDub:  "Totally agree with the opening post.

But you don't even have to go as far back as the 70s.

I watched the 2006 Dublin V Mayo semi final only a few weeks ago. Dubbed one of the best games of the decade.

Truly awful stuff. Hoofing the ball. Stray passes left right and center. Horrible shooting. Bad wide after bad wide. Honestly if you watched that game today you would say it was an awful standard of football.

So we definitely have the rose tinted glasses on.

The standard of the recent Dublin Kerry finals of 2019 was exceptional really. And no one can tell me they were boring. No one. Regardless of who you were up for."
I think it was the best game of football ever.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3488 - 23/06/2021 14:08:54    2352855

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Replying To AfricanGael:  "I'm sure football in the 70's was better than football in the 30's or 40's so comparing todays football to the 70's is a pointless exercise.

I'm also sure some of the best games ever played were full of mistakes. "Best" games do not have equate to best skills or techniques, if you judge sport in that way, then I suggest you stop watching it.

Football is not fun when it becomes too robotic, process orientated and clinical.

I believe in the long term such robotic football is not only damaging to the game but damaging to the GAA as well, but I also believe it will do the full circle once the robotic system has been smashed to bits by good players who are allowed to express themselves without the fear of their wired up baseball cap wearing manager throwing his evil eye at them, in other words the wrath of the joystick holder.

As for golden age, we are nowhere near it, in the future people may look at this era as the dark age of football."
We've had this discussion recently and we know where we each stand so don't want to rehash that argument.

I don't think the "robotic" football is going away though.

There's a reason why players are patient in terms of shot selection and are risk averse when it comes to passing. It's because it's a winning strategy.

It's very simple equation that each team will have the same number of possessions (including kick outs as a possession) per half. How you win is being more efficient in scoring from your possessions. Every possession that ends with no score is a waste. The name of the game is to not waste runs of possession by shooting stupidly or conceding the ball cheaply.

When the game is thought about in that way the current way of playing just makes sense and teams can't just unlearn that.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3488 - 23/06/2021 14:18:56    2352857

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Spot on Whammo. That's exactly the way it's gone just like basketball. Hold possession until you get a good scoring position and if you don't score it's a wasted opportunity. It makes sense though and you are correct in that it's hard to change that type of play.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 2712 - 23/06/2021 15:00:56    2352872

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As sure as the sun rises in the East and sets in the West we will be talking about the way the game was played in the past ten years or less from now. That has always been the way and it is naive to think other wise. Or that we live in the golden era. We thought that in the 70's with Kerry and Dublin. They might catch up to the players today with a ten speed but yet it was fabulous football !!! for the time.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 1639 - 23/06/2021 15:25:15    2352881

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Replying To Whammo86:  "We've had this discussion recently and we know where we each stand so don't want to rehash that argument.

I don't think the "robotic" football is going away though.

There's a reason why players are patient in terms of shot selection and are risk averse when it comes to passing. It's because it's a winning strategy.

It's very simple equation that each team will have the same number of possessions (including kick outs as a possession) per half. How you win is being more efficient in scoring from your possessions. Every possession that ends with no score is a waste. The name of the game is to not waste runs of possession by shooting stupidly or conceding the ball cheaply.

When the game is thought about in that way the current way of playing just makes sense and teams can't just unlearn that."
You have nailed your colours to the mast of robotic football being here to stay as it's a winning strategy, that's fine I accept your point of view.

I can't argue that it's not a winning strategy and if it continues to be that for the years to come I'll be the first to come back to you and say, you were right Whammo86, I got it wrong, my attack minded "off the cuff" philosophy is wrong, likewise I would hope you will do the same, if my philosophy of the how to smash the robotic football is correct.

I accept teams must play to their strengths and you do need the forwards especially to pull it off, but unfortunately every county bar Dublin has to wait for a generation of players to come along.

The most frustrating part for me is we have a few teams who like to rank themselves 2 to 6 or whatever, who have the talent but are not using it correctly.

If you're not winning by playing defensive football, what the hell are you continuing to persist with it for ?

The ironic thing about blanket defensive systems is that defenders are actually losing the art of defending.

So what is very likely to happen is that when a team built on a blanket defensive system starts to adapt they will take several bad beatings in the process.

Time will tell.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1946 - 23/06/2021 15:26:00    2352883

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "You would pick that one. Only joking. 2005 was a great final as was 08."
I would say that on the day 2003 final was brilliant, when you watch it now it was awful .

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 835 - 23/06/2021 15:27:52    2352884

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Replying To avonali:  "sorry, that should have read '77 semi-final of course. The so called 'greatest game of all time'."
the 77 semi final was and will remain the greatest game of football ever

mickcunningham (Westmeath) - Posts: 1349 - 23/06/2021 15:39:08    2352887

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Replying To Saynothing:  "I would say that on the day 2003 final was brilliant, when you watch it now it was awful ."
We all have the rose tinted glasses but you see a final has a full house and if there are a good few scores and it's tense we all feel it was a great game but when you look back on it even a year or two later you see mistakes bad passes and so on but the perfect game has never happened and never will. For a game to be great it has to have mistakes too as it all adds to the excitement.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 2712 - 23/06/2021 16:09:52    2352890

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This thread is so true.

I watched several matches from the 80's and 90's over the lockdown. God the games were terrible.
The matches in 96 were terrible. The amount of bad striking, failed pick ups, bad wides, ground hurling straight to the opposition, was unreal.
Many's the much-fabled match is because of an exciting finish - I am looking at you Limerick v Clare 96. The last 10 minutes were very exciting, up to then the hurling was so poor. Ditto Wexford Kilkenny 97. Awful!

Football, even more braindead. Kick it up the field, get rid of it, kick it wide.

My earliest memory in GAA is the Wexford Cork 2003 - I watched this recently and even though I was 7, I knew something special was happening.

I would say GAA only really took off in the noughties. No offence to any of the men who went before, but it was very much "of its time".

Maybe it is like everything else, as we become a better educated society, if you ask a player to run a lap of the field they want to know why they are doing it.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1367 - 23/06/2021 16:39:26    2352899

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The only positive back then was it seemed more teams had a chance of winning or at least making a final. Now, there are even fewer of these counties.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1367 - 23/06/2021 16:40:29    2352900

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "Spot on Whammo. That's exactly the way it's gone just like basketball. Hold possession until you get a good scoring position and if you don't score it's a wasted opportunity. It makes sense though and you are correct in that it's hard to change that type of play."
I totally agree. The team more effective in converting their chances win the game. Like basketball there are a myriad of ways of playing this game. Full Court Press / Defence First / Fast Break; do you go zonal / man on man.

For me football was best in the 90's & 00's in terms of competitiveness but in terms of skill its got nothing on today. It is a much better game now with the extra athleticism and tactical nous needed to play the game. The problem is that there aren't that many teams able to be in contention at the highest level making the top level games too predictable.

Hurling though - I think the game is becoming unwatchable as a neutral spectator. To stick with the basketball analogy its the equivalent of hitting 3 pointers reliably from the half way line where the act of scoring for Team A frees up the man to take the next shot for Team B.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 59 - 23/06/2021 17:04:26    2352907

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