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The GAA And Taking The Knee.

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Correction. Underpins, not undermines.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1344 - 12/06/2021 19:10:07    2349899

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Replying To ecad123:  "Interesting you brought this up as Ice bucket challenge was to raise money for MND a very serious disease with no cure! I would like to see this trend still going and be more popular to raise much needed money for the cause. It seems to hit very active sports people as per rte yesterday."
I'd like to know what percentage of people who done the ice bucket challenge actually contributed to MND charity. It was a great idea to raise money for such a horrible disease but it did seem to become a bit gimmcky and just became the in thing to be seen to do and post on social media. I think the message of what it was all about got lost.
Similar to taking the knee I feel.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1165 - 12/06/2021 19:34:02    2349910

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There is little or no interest in the GAA whose absolute essence is in playing for where you come from. If a young fellah supports the Pakistani cricket team, the Limerick hurlers might not be able to compete with that.
It's all well and good saying that we need to be more inclusive but it's a two way thing. people from different backgrounds have to want to be involved also. If I saw a brilliant young fellah coming through for the senior hurlers with an eye for goal who happened to be African, Lebanese, Nepalese or Chinese I wouldn't care less. Most people would be the exact same.. Especially if he could score a goal or two."]There's also the factor that if you are good enough (the skill, fitness and determination) to play inter-county football or hurling; there is chance you could also be good enough to play other sports. DJ Carey comes to mind, but there are plenty of others.

If you're a young lad with a good all round ability at sport, and you're not the academic type, a career as a professional sportsmen would be appealing. Think of Niall Quinn, I quote from Wikipedia:

Niall Quinn played Gaelic football for the Perrystown, Dublin 12, club Robert Emmets. He also played underage football and hurling for Dublin. In July 1983, Quinn captained a Dublin Colleges GAA party on a one-month tour of Australia. Aged 16, he played in the 1983 All-Ireland Minor Hurling Championship Final, and was offered a contract to play professional Australian rules football before settling on a career in soccer. He played Gaelic football for Co. Kildare club Eadestown after his retirement, winning a junior C county title in 2008.

Also, first and second generation immigrants in Ireland would not be as steeped in the culture and history, of the parish and county ethos, that undermines the GAA.

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I agree that it is a two way street in terms of immigration. That's a different argument though.

I am making a point about the GAA not attracting participants beyond those with a white, Irish and from a 'Catholic' background. Other sports attract more diverse players in Ireland. I played rugby too and played with a diverse enough group and not many of us had many illusions of going pro. Kids want to play a sport, most don't have ambitions to go pro. On average, kids are much more exposed to GAA in school, I never knew any 'non-Irish' schoolmates to play GAA from my memory.

I agree with many of your points about why many play GAA. However, look at how the GAA has made great progress in Dublin, given how many people move to Dublin and would not be tied to an area, it is interesting that participation has went up. Yet, there doesn't seem to be anyone from a non-Irish background on their panels for either code. This seems odd to me.

HokeyPokey (Tyrone) - Posts: 1714 - 12/06/2021 20:00:18    2349927

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People should educate themselves before talking, I suggest watching the very in depth "What killed Michael Brown". Made by a great black film maker, it is the case which started the "hands up dont shoot protests". There is a concentrated effort to divide people along any line possible, division is the agenda. How many of the people taking the knee know who George Soros is?, he wrote the refugee quotas for Europe, recently increased from 45m to 75m, how about we stop creating refugees. How many people know who controls the currency currently being used in Ireland? People are being used as disposable pawns. We have to step outside the information being fed and educate ourselves, taking the knee is agenda driven and a sign of submission, btw, BLM are not welcomed by many black Americans. This is Marxist driven, read about the attempt to introduce "critical race theory" into US schools as its coming to Ireland soon

GAAK (Derry) - Posts: 9 - 12/06/2021 20:14:54    2349932

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May be I am naive and willing to be corrected but I do not perceive racism in the GAA. I think any kid who would come down to his local GAA field would be welcome. I think in fact pride would be take in teaching him/her football, hurling and camogie.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 1337 - 12/06/2021 20:20:37    2349936

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Replying To Canuck:  "The stats show completely different. If a black man is driving a nice car he is 75% more likely to be pulled over on some trunked up violation because he is suspected to have stolen it. The first thing black parents teach their kids when stopped keep your hands on the wheel because if you reach for any thing you may be shot. If arrested the charging and court system treats them different. Do you know there are thousands of black people in prison for having a few ounces of pot because they don't have the $100 to get out. There was a case of a woman who had spent 9 years in jail until some realized it and paid it. Prisons are privately run and they get paid per head. So fill them up. That is why U.S. has the highest prison numbers per capitol in the world. Some police in America are extremely biased towards blacks. Personally I know this while working there. A black co worker was stopped at least once a week on his way home. If he happened to work late he was almost sure to be swooped on. That is not to say there are not good police but until they deal with this they will all be painted the same. It is so convient to blame BLM and put labels on them. It a great way of pushing reality under the rug."
A police officer is a very dangerous job in America and because of the gun culture in America police officers have to undertake their role in a much more aggressive manner than probably anywhere else in the western world.
I've no doubt some police officers are racists in the same way that some people generally are racists. But the reason in the main that the police mindset is the black guy might have stolen car is because, in his job he has probably comes across black men stealing cars at a higher rate than the general population. It is unfair on the vast majority of blacks who would never commit serious crime but the root cause is the higher crime rates.
Ultimately high crime rates is in large part linked to poverty, government and local communities need to work to sort this out rather than just blame the police.
BLM don't hide the fact that they are Marxist. They are genuinely calling for crazy policies like defunding the police.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 878 - 12/06/2021 20:50:47    2349948

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If we took the knee for black lives matters , then take the other knee for sexism , then lie on our backs for ageism.
If we have energy left we then could play a match !

OpenStand (Limerick) - Posts: 326 - 12/06/2021 21:07:41    2349966

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Replying To Gaillimh_Abu:  "Really? Lee Chin's father had to stop going to matches long ago because he could not bear to listen to the vile racist insults and abuse that Lee was routinely subjected to from the stands. Jason Sherlock has spoken about the racist crap that he had to endure all through his career. And these are the experiences of popular, high-profile inter-county stars. Imagine what it must be like for a player of colour on a rural junior club team. I can definitely say that many people in my social circle when I was growing up in the 1980s were openly racist. I was often shocked by the hateful comments out of the blue that I heard from friends and relatives. These were people that I otherwise respected and liked. I knew their words were unacceptable at the time but I lacked the assurance and self-confidence to speak out. I definitely would not hold back now in calling out racist bigotry when I hear it. Irish society is much more diverse and open-minded now than it was in the 80s but anyone who thinks racism has disappeared is deluded. Taking a knee is a minor gesture of solidarity and anyone ranting on about connections to Antifa and Marxism is spending way too much time on alt-right social media. People who claim to be anti-racist should walk the walk in their daily lives by calling out racism when they see it and supporting racialized people in their communities - ask them about their experiences and try listening with an open mind."
I think the most racism I've seen at GAA grounds was when I trained English born lads, nearly all with Irish parents and brought them over on tour. It was regular abuse by players and fans. I cannot believe that any people, of any race, gender or creed should not be applauded for playing and promoting our games. I suspect there are a few that are appalled by racism but would be quick to turn on an English accent, even before knowing the background.

BaldyBadger (Cork) - Posts: 221 - 12/06/2021 21:49:21    2349988

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Well Hokeypokey, there are non white players coming through. It will take time. There are as many if not more Eastern Europeans in the part of Dublin I live in. Will we see them playing the Gah. I hope so.

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 2181 - 12/06/2021 21:55:42    2349991

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Replying To Canuck:  "May be I am naive and willing to be corrected but I do not perceive racism in the GAA. I think any kid who would come down to his local GAA field would be welcome. I think in fact pride would be take in teaching him/her football, hurling and camogie."
You're right i dont think the GAA has a massive racism problem. It does happen.

Lads will be welcome by their own team, until you play for a club team in the GAA or your child does I dont really think people understand the bonds of club teammates. But when this first started last year the younger players who came forward about racial abuse on the pitch it was always from the opposition. One young lad didn't tell his teammates what was said to him. Lee Chins dad isn't hearing racist comments about his son from members of his own club but hes hearing it from others.

I think the taking the knee is performative by a lot of people and that's the reason I wouldn't like to see it in the GAA. So many people talking about stuff like this and I honestly think they couldnt care less it's just the popular self righteous thing to do

The main BLM group recently had one of their founders or higher ups step down because she spent over a million dollars on a new home. One of the victims brothers that they are "fighting" for publicly denounced them because he said he didnt know where the money was going and were not transparent

I'd like the GAA to put out a clear anti racism message like the mental health one and follow it up with action. Id also like to see them follow up the mental health one with action too. It's very performative.

galwayfball (Galway) - Posts: 1364 - 12/06/2021 22:17:25    2350003

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Replying To HokeyPokey:  "
Replying To galwayford:  "[quote=HokeyPokey:  "[quote=galwayford:  "[quote=HokeyPokey:  "I'm not sure how effective it is or whether it would work in the GAA. I think doing it in empty stadiums diluted the impact. The reaction now by fans in England and elsewhere is the point to these kinds of gestures. The reaction against highlights the work we need to do. It sparks conversation around race.

Disappointed but not surprised by the people here who have clearly drank the right wing Kool-Aid.

Taking a knee was started by an NFL player. BLM uses it, but the gesture doesn't belong to them in any shape or form. Soccer players are taking the knee to highlight racism and racial inequality, I haven't heard any of them endorsing anything tangentially linked to BLM.

Being against racism is not and should not be seen as political. People need to educate themselves properly on these issues. There are no shortage of statistics that show how stark it is. In the US, income inequality levels for blacks is the same as it was in the 1960s, a black masters graduate is still on average likely to earn less than a white high school graduate. Black people are overwhelmingly targeted by police and discriminatory laws, police checks of white drivers are more likely to find drugs.

Someone also mentioned about statues being torn down. This is a typical red herring used by the right wing. There was only one statue torn down in the UK and it was a long running issue. That hasn't stopped the Tories and right wing media from writing constantly about the threat. Now someone who defaces a statue can face longer jail time than a rapist in the UK. Makes sense, no?

Ireland is a racist country, that doesn't mean everyone is racist. It means we have work to do and we shouldn't try to shrink from that. Immigrants report experiencing discrimination in the South much more than other EU countries. Thankfully we don't have a media that perpetuates racism on the same level as elsewhere. But, issues with racism in Ireland is well documented and look at any comment section online you will find it very easily, and as someone else pointed out, we will all have heard racist remarks of varying degrees by friends, colleagues and families.

The GAA has a lot of work to do. Having played rugby and GAA in Ireland, there were far, far more players of different skin colours playing rugby, but I only ever remember experiencing very outright racism in GAA circles. The GAA needs to modernise and think more clearly what it stands for and its purpose. There's a lot of work to do to make it more inclusive and not just attractive to the typical GAA head."
Are you a non white. You seem to be an expert. I have noticed far more racism in Irish rugby towards working class people. So does that count as discrimination. A lot of Irish rugby comes from fee paying schools."
I think you are talking about classism rather than racism there.

I know that's definitely an issue in certain rugby circles. Rugby culture varies from place to place in Ireland though and is much less uniform than GAA. I didn't play for a club or school team that would have played against many of the private school types.

My point was racism is an issue in Ireland and there is work to do. A lot of people seem to buy into bad faith or factually incorrect arguments against things like taking the knee. The GAA has work to do on becoming more diverse. It seems that even a sport like rugby which is limited in its worldwide popularity attracts more non-white players / fans than the GAA."]With respect there are GAA clubs now in every major city in the World. They cater mainly for ex Pats that is true. And they are trying to get 2nd generation playing the games. For example there are teams from multicultural London and multicultural New York playing in the All Ireland championships. They could try and possible have a team from European GAA too in the future."]I was talking about worldwide appeal in terms of Ireland. People argue that soccer has worldwide appeal, so naturally they choose soccer. This is given as a reason non-Irish or kids from non-Irish backgrounds don't play GAA. I think it is a factor. But, rugby doesn't have much of a profile in most countries, yet it does better among these groups.

There are very, very few non Irish names on county teams. I'm not sure how it is on club teams, but seems very glaring at inter-county. Chin, Sherlock, Jemar Hall, the Ó hAilpíns all had one Irish parent.

The question is why aren't they choosing GAA?"]Simple. It doesn't have the international exposure rather than being because of race. If you have no previous Irish background, GAA is an alien game. However if you see familiar sports like soccer, rugby etc, you are more likely to play it. Look at the reverse. Any lad that plays GAA that goes abroad, is more likely to look for a local GAA team than take up a brand new sport they have no experience of.

BaldyBadger (Cork) - Posts: 221 - 12/06/2021 22:25:34    2350008

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Replying To Canuck:  "May be I am naive and willing to be corrected but I do not perceive racism in the GAA. I think any kid who would come down to his local GAA field would be welcome. I think in fact pride would be take in teaching him/her football, hurling and camogie."
I think the problem is that people saying 'there is racism in the GAA' is getting confused with, or worse, that the GAA is racist. There are a certain amount of individuals in Ireland who are racist, in all walks of life. Some of these people will be part of the GAA. However, I would agree with you, anyone who takes time out to teach and support kids at a local GAA club, is far less likely to be racist.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1344 - 12/06/2021 22:39:43    2350014

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BLM, Nike, Coca Cola all bad US brands. I am totally convinced a GAA team "taking the knee" would have ridicule heaped upon them. Selective inclusitivity is not what sport needs. On a very basic level players from diverse backgrounds should have an equal and fair chance to play whatever spirt tgey choose, without having to go through some sort of approval ritial before every game. World is going slowly mad.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4625 - 13/06/2021 00:02:39    2350043

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Replying To OpenStand:  "If we took the knee for black lives matters , then take the other knee for sexism , then lie on our backs for ageism.
If we have energy left we then could play a match !"
Very well said. Shows how idiotic this nonsense is, this american marxist organisation and its claptrap has no place in our society or association.

Tom1916 (Armagh) - Posts: 1935 - 13/06/2021 07:06:10    2350060

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "A police officer is a very dangerous job in America and because of the gun culture in America police officers have to undertake their role in a much more aggressive manner than probably anywhere else in the western world.
I've no doubt some police officers are racists in the same way that some people generally are racists. But the reason in the main that the police mindset is the black guy might have stolen car is because, in his job he has probably comes across black men stealing cars at a higher rate than the general population. It is unfair on the vast majority of blacks who would never commit serious crime but the root cause is the higher crime rates.
Ultimately high crime rates is in large part linked to poverty, government and local communities need to work to sort this out rather than just blame the police.
BLM don't hide the fact that they are Marxist. They are genuinely calling for crazy policies like defunding the police."
A police officer takes an oath to serve the people. All the people. He is trained not to have a racist mind set and if he has, that is what he is, a racist. If he does not know the risks of the job then he should not have joined this career. Suppose more Meath people got harassed and shot because they commit more crime than any where else in Ireland. Sometimes we need to put ourselves in the shoes of the other person. Cops in the U.S. have murdered black people since the foundation of the country and those deaths if you look up the stats is way out of portion than theory that they steal more cars.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 1337 - 13/06/2021 13:36:09    2350178

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Replying To Tom1916:  "Very well said. Shows how idiotic this nonsense is, this american marxist organisation and its claptrap has no place in our society or association."
Brings up the question also, why are certain parts of Irish society so desperate to associate with something that has nothing to do with our society or culture.

Systematic abuse, racism and slavery of Black Africans is not part of our history, despite the best attempts of a UCD professor of ' Black studies' who gets trotted out at every opportunity by RTE to tell us about how racist we all are.

I remember the BLM march in Dublin last year when the whole country was supposed to be in Lockdown. it was ridiculous that it was allowed go ahead and even worse how our then Taoiseach fell over himself to support it all..the hypocrisy is unreal....

skillet (Limerick) - Posts: 816 - 13/06/2021 14:04:22    2350189

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Replying To Canuck:  "A police officer takes an oath to serve the people. All the people. He is trained not to have a racist mind set and if he has, that is what he is, a racist. If he does not know the risks of the job then he should not have joined this career. Suppose more Meath people got harassed and shot because they commit more crime than any where else in Ireland. Sometimes we need to put ourselves in the shoes of the other person. Cops in the U.S. have murdered black people since the foundation of the country and those deaths if you look up the stats is way out of portion than theory that they steal more cars."
"Cops in the U.S. have murdered black people since the foundation of the country"

Black people have murdered far more black people than cops.
Cops in the US have 'murdered' far more white people than black people.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1344 - 13/06/2021 17:11:06    2350292

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Replying To Canuck:  "A police officer takes an oath to serve the people. All the people. He is trained not to have a racist mind set and if he has, that is what he is, a racist. If he does not know the risks of the job then he should not have joined this career. Suppose more Meath people got harassed and shot because they commit more crime than any where else in Ireland. Sometimes we need to put ourselves in the shoes of the other person. Cops in the U.S. have murdered black people since the foundation of the country and those deaths if you look up the stats is way out of portion than theory that they steal more cars."
https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883

Above is an article from the from the Wall Street Journal (a well respected newspaper in US) I was sent last year during some of the BLM protests. Many people are buying the argument without question that statistics prove an extreme bias against black people in terms of treatment by police officers. Thus article puts the case that that this is not the reality.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 878 - 13/06/2021 17:38:12    2350305

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  ""Cops in the U.S. have murdered black people since the foundation of the country"

Black people have murdered far more black people than cops.
Cops in the US have 'murdered' far more white people than black people."
"Cops in the US have 'murdered' far more white people than black people."

13.4% of the U.S population is black. If you want to use as a gauge the percentage of whites killed to blacks then it should be no blacks ever.
Do some research and history and you will find the number of law men who went with the vigilantes and klu kluks clan and hung black men for taking some food, looking at women, sitting on a bus, using a toilet etc.etc. But then there are people who also deny the holocaust so no surprise at denial of racism by bad cops. Guess what the lynching guys hiding behind the white cloakes are as prevalent today as they were 100 years ago and have police support in many areas.
We as Irish should know better that anyone what it is to be policed by racist police. Not every policeman is that way but take off the blinkers.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 1337 - 14/06/2021 02:07:00    2350606

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Replying To Canuck:  "
Replying To Cockney_Cat:  ""Cops in the U.S. have murdered black people since the foundation of the country"

Black people have murdered far more black people than cops.
Cops in the US have 'murdered' far more white people than black people."
"Cops in the US have 'murdered' far more white people than black people."

13.4% of the U.S population is black. If you want to use as a gauge the percentage of whites killed to blacks then it should be no blacks ever.
Do some research and history and you will find the number of law men who went with the vigilantes and klu kluks clan and hung black men for taking some food, looking at women, sitting on a bus, using a toilet etc.etc. But then there are people who also deny the holocaust so no surprise at denial of racism by bad cops. Guess what the lynching guys hiding behind the white cloakes are as prevalent today as they were 100 years ago and have police support in many areas.
We as Irish should know better that anyone what it is to be policed by racist police. Not every policeman is that way but take off the blinkers."
No doubt blacks have historically been treated badly in America and very badly the American south but it when it comes to police officers and Black males in modern times it is a bad use of statistics to say blacks make up 13.4% of the population so if black shooting by police officers is much more than this this it shows bias.
You have to take into account other factors, in 2018 blacks made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and committed about 60% of the robberies.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 878 - 15/06/2021 19:56:12    2351251

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