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Replying To MesAmis: "At the moment few are capable of seeing the bigger picture in terms of the amount of positive things the church did and always look towards the negative things. Yes a lot of bad things happened because of the church. But there is enormous positives also. The church basically set up and maintained an education and health system when it would not have happened to anything like the same extent otherwise. Many poor people would have got no education only for this. Years ago many girls got a great education because of the nuns at a time when girls education would not have been as high priority as now. In this way the church played a huge part in moving Ireland away from the very poor country in had been.
Reading some history of local GAA in Meath the religious years ago were often huge driving forces in local GAA which gave people great pride in local communities.
Also lot of missionary priests did huge work in poor countries helping people. I remember watching a program which talked about missionary priests, who were based local communities flying in food to starving people during war time in Biafra and having their planes shot at.
Recently I remember watching a program on the Spanish civil war which was very critical of the church for supporting the nationalist side. It was only after when I did a bit of reading I realised the program was one sided and had a very anti church bias as it ignored the fact that in the Red terror at the start of the war the left wing side murdered without trial about 50,000 innocent people including about 6,000 priests.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 858 - 06/06/2021 20:38:58
The church wanted control over education and health for their own ends though. They weren't only doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.
The fact that the state, both under British and Irish rule abdicated control of health and education to the church is an inditement of how much control the church had in general, this power in health and education was used by the church to control, abuse and indoctrinate people thus holding onto power.
There were good people involved in the church and they did positive things, that is not in question. However, overall the church has generally been about consolidating power over people and accumulating wealth throughout its history, which has caused untold misery. The sheer scale of the bad far outweighs the good." Generally I agree with all that, but I have some problems with your last sentence. I was watching a recent History Programme on the BBC. It dealt with the period when Henry V111 confiscated all the Church property in Britain. It appears that thousands of people who looked to the Abbeys for work, education, health care, alms, etc were then 'relieved' of all those advantages and left much poorer than before. You say the Brits, abdicated control of education to the Church. They abdicated control because did not the want poor educated, but to remain as uneducated poorly paid slaves. Any secondary education that was availabe in rural Ireland, while they were here was provided by Religious Orders or Philotraphic people. The Queens Colleges were mainly for the families of the rich people. The only reason they commenced building National Schoole in the 1830s, and funded Maynooth, was to indoctrinate the youth of the land away from the new ideologies steeming from the French and American Revouloutions. So anybody that did provide education, in those days, did it not out of the goodness of their heart, but for their own ends.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 08/06/2021 12:55:27
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Replying To Greengrass: "You are being highly disrespectful of the people who profess a genuinely held faith. Those people have a right to profess that faith without their beliefs being insulted. Sadly in the shiny, newly inclusive, "liberal" Ireland sneering at people who profess a faith and sneering at their faith has become all too common. Your post and attitude epitomises that." Cult:
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.
P.S. I am no Liberal.
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8592 - 08/06/2021 13:08:08
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Replying To tonguey: "How very noble of you- I am sure he was so glad to get your "business". It was a real coup I am sure!! Do you really think he cared if you went elsewhere??? Full of self importance you seem to be.
He was speaking about the teachings of the Catholic Church which as a priest he had every right to do- if you did not agree or could not understand what they were, why were you going there looking to get married in a Catholic Church??
Some people seem to bang on and on and give out about the Church, yet they use it when it suits!!!!!" Ok my wife craved the traditional wedding, not me. Had nothing to do with faith its just the way this country rolls. Furthermore the only time I've been in a church since was to pay respect to the loved ones of a deceased friend or family member. Again, nothing to do with faith.
The teachings of a cult who has murdered babies and abused young boys and girls will receive zero respect from me. I didn't care whether he cared, it was my response to his question which was posed in the most arrogant and demeaning tone.
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8592 - 08/06/2021 13:16:35
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Replying To realdub: "Ok my wife craved the traditional wedding, not me. Had nothing to do with faith its just the way this country rolls. Furthermore the only time I've been in a church since was to pay respect to the loved ones of a deceased friend or family member. Again, nothing to do with faith.
The teachings of a cult who has murdered babies and abused young boys and girls will receive zero respect from me. I didn't care whether he cared, it was my response to his question which was posed in the most arrogant and demeaning tone." So yes you used the church to get married and pay respects to people who lost loved ones?? Could not go to their house/funeral home???
It doesn't matter if you have faith or not- the fact is you used the church that you claim to despise when it suited you to do so. They are the facts and no matter what way you twist it that is the truth.
So you went into this "cult" to suit your own needs. That is very noble now.
the creeler (Cavan) - Posts: 512 - 08/06/2021 13:30:42
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The speed of change that has taken place throughout our little country is quiet alarming let it be for the right reasons or otherwise, it is said widely that in theory we are still a catholic country but in practice we are far from it,
It is also suggested we are the most liberal country in Western Europe.
As for religion it's said we are fast dismissing it in favor of the Atheistic approach, there are seriously qualified people in this country who are Atheist, just wondering how would we function as a people if we had no religion or it's beliefs, documentaries on prisoners on death row suggest that very many of them in their last days or hours will call for a religious person or the prison Chaplin to pray with them until the very end, irrespective of the fact that they may have committed some of the most hideous crimes against humanity. Is there any truth in the suggestion that it's easier not to believe than it is to believe, that may be why we opt for the obvious choice.
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2907 - 08/06/2021 13:39:39
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You are being highly disrespectful of the people who profess a genuinely held faith. Those people have a right to profess that faith without their beliefs being insulted. Sadly in the shiny, newly inclusive, "liberal" Ireland sneering at people who profess a faith and sneering at their faith has become all too common. Your post and attitude epitomises that.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5395 - 08/06/2021 11:24:55
I'm genuinely not trying to be offensive but religious people do not have a right to their beliefs not being insulted or sneered at imo.
I think that a lot of what religious people believe is silly. They have the right to believe these things ( as long as they do not impinge on others' rights which we know has been a problem in the past and indeed the present with religions) and I have the right to think that they are silly beliefs.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 08/06/2021 15:00:06
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Replying To supersub15: "The speed of change that has taken place throughout our little country is quiet alarming let it be for the right reasons or otherwise, it is said widely that in theory we are still a catholic country but in practice we are far from it,
It is also suggested we are the most liberal country in Western Europe.
As for religion it's said we are fast dismissing it in favor of the Atheistic approach, there are seriously qualified people in this country who are Atheist, just wondering how would we function as a people if we had no religion or it's beliefs, documentaries on prisoners on death row suggest that very many of them in their last days or hours will call for a religious person or the prison Chaplin to pray with them until the very end, irrespective of the fact that they may have committed some of the most hideous crimes against humanity. Is there any truth in the suggestion that it's easier not to believe than it is to believe, that may be why we opt for the obvious choice." I suppose Pascal's wager comes into play for inmates on death row or maybe someone with terminal illness, there are no atheists in foxholes unless they are very committed to the idea I suppose.
Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2748 - 08/06/2021 15:02:28
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Replying To MesAmis: "You are being highly disrespectful of the people who profess a genuinely held faith. Those people have a right to profess that faith without their beliefs being insulted. Sadly in the shiny, newly inclusive, "liberal" Ireland sneering at people who profess a faith and sneering at their faith has become all too common. Your post and attitude epitomises that.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5395 - 08/06/2021 11:24:55
I'm genuinely not trying to be offensive but religious people do not have a right to their beliefs not being insulted or sneered at imo.
I think that a lot of what religious people believe is silly. They have the right to believe these things ( as long as they do not impinge on others' rights which we know has been a problem in the past and indeed the present with religions) and I have the right to think that they are silly beliefs." Yes you may have that right indeed but you do not have the right to insult people on their beliefs- that is bullying. So would it be ok for a religious person to sneer at you because of your beliefs?? If you did it to another religion it would be discrimination.
Just because you do not believe (which is your right and nobody really cares anyway what your rights are) does not give you the "right" to sneer at other people because they do not share your view. As I said it is bullying so please mature a little bit and behave like an adult. Thank you.
the creeler (Cavan) - Posts: 512 - 08/06/2021 15:11:15
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Replying To MesAmis: "You are being highly disrespectful of the people who profess a genuinely held faith. Those people have a right to profess that faith without their beliefs being insulted. Sadly in the shiny, newly inclusive, "liberal" Ireland sneering at people who profess a faith and sneering at their faith has become all too common. Your post and attitude epitomises that.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5395 - 08/06/2021 11:24:55
I'm genuinely not trying to be offensive but religious people do not have a right to their beliefs not being insulted or sneered at imo.
I think that a lot of what religious people believe is silly. They have the right to believe these things ( as long as they do not impinge on others' rights which we know has been a problem in the past and indeed the present with religions) and I have the right to think that they are silly beliefs." What a way to live your life, making choices based on whether someone else has a right to something or not, use a bit of common sense and decency man.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 08/06/2021 15:13:30
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Replying To MesAmis: "You are being highly disrespectful of the people who profess a genuinely held faith. Those people have a right to profess that faith without their beliefs being insulted. Sadly in the shiny, newly inclusive, "liberal" Ireland sneering at people who profess a faith and sneering at their faith has become all too common. Your post and attitude epitomises that.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5395 - 08/06/2021 11:24:55
I'm genuinely not trying to be offensive but religious people do not have a right to their beliefs not being insulted or sneered at imo.
I think that a lot of what religious people believe is silly. They have the right to believe these things ( as long as they do not impinge on others' rights which we know has been a problem in the past and indeed the present with religions) and I have the right to think that they are silly beliefs." I agree with quite a bit of what you say MesAmis. Organised religion in the past was most certainly intolerant. It did impinge upon people's lives most particularly when the way that people lived their lives was perceived to be a threat to that particular religion. That however is not a trait that is unique to organised religion. That is a trait common to societal structures in general most particularly where power was wielded. A threat to the power that individuals wielded was very seldom if ever tolerated. That is true to this day most particularly in dictatorships or indeed theocracies. Ultimately it is part of the human condition that power is to be held on to at any costs irrespective of the suffering that may inflict upon fellow human beings. It is also part of the human condition to abuse power and to inflict unspeakable suffering upon fellow human beings. That is not unique to religious institutions. That permeated all walks of life right throughout human history. Slavery is one example. Empires, conquest and systematic exploitation is another example. In today's society in Ireland institutions are still being protected at all costs. We have seen people enduring intolerable hardship as a result of measures taken to protect our financial institutions. Corruption and abuse are not the preserve of the church. It is part of the human condition. You have every right to disagree with the beliefs of people of faith. However I believe that can be done in a manner that is respectful and tolerant. To overtly sneer at someone's beliefs is intolerant and disrespectful. Sadly I believe we have replaced one intolerant orthodoxy in this country with another orthodoxy that is equally intolerant. Realdub's sentiments epitomise that.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 08/06/2021 16:06:33
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Replying To Tirchonaill1: "I suppose Pascal's wager comes into play for inmates on death row or maybe someone with terminal illness, there are no atheists in foxholes unless they are very committed to the idea I suppose." It's suggested that very many of them, - but have another read.
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2907 - 08/06/2021 16:08:35
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Replying To AfricanGael: " Replying To MesAmis: "You are being highly disrespectful of the people who profess a genuinely held faith. Those people have a right to profess that faith without their beliefs being insulted. Sadly in the shiny, newly inclusive, "liberal" Ireland sneering at people who profess a faith and sneering at their faith has become all too common. Your post and attitude epitomises that.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5395 - 08/06/2021 11:24:55
I'm genuinely not trying to be offensive but religious people do not have a right to their beliefs not being insulted or sneered at imo.
I think that a lot of what religious people believe is silly. They have the right to believe these things ( as long as they do not impinge on others' rights which we know has been a problem in the past and indeed the present with religions) and I have the right to think that they are silly beliefs." What a way to live your life, making choices based on whether someone else has a right to something or not, use a bit of common sense and decency man.
"
Nothing I've written above informs how I make a choice or how I live my life.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 08/06/2021 17:31:52
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Replying To tonguey: " Replying To MesAmis: "You are being highly disrespectful of the people who profess a genuinely held faith. Those people have a right to profess that faith without their beliefs being insulted. Sadly in the shiny, newly inclusive, "liberal" Ireland sneering at people who profess a faith and sneering at their faith has become all too common. Your post and attitude epitomises that.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5395 - 08/06/2021 11:24:55
I'm genuinely not trying to be offensive but religious people do not have a right to their beliefs not being insulted or sneered at imo.
I think that a lot of what religious people believe is silly. They have the right to believe these things ( as long as they do not impinge on others' rights which we know has been a problem in the past and indeed the present with religions) and I have the right to think that they are silly beliefs." Yes you may have that right indeed but you do not have the right to insult people on their beliefs- that is bullying. So would it be ok for a religious person to sneer at you because of your beliefs?? If you did it to another religion it would be discrimination. Just because you do not believe (which is your right and nobody really cares anyway what your rights are) does not give you the "right" to sneer at other people because they do not share your view. As I said it is bullying so please mature a little bit and behave like an adult. Thank you."
You, or anyone, doesn't have an automatic right to never be offended. It's more complicated than that. Something that insults one Christian might not insult another Christian etc.
There are plenty of religious beliefs that I find insulting but that does not mean that I have some sort of right to never ever be confronted by those beliefs. Some people will find my offence to their beliefs as offensive in and of itself.
I reject the notion that everyone has a right to not be ever offended.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 08/06/2021 17:47:57
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Replying To Greengrass: " Replying To MesAmis: "You are being highly disrespectful of the people who profess a genuinely held faith. Those people have a right to profess that faith without their beliefs being insulted. Sadly in the shiny, newly inclusive, "liberal" Ireland sneering at people who profess a faith and sneering at their faith has become all too common. Your post and attitude epitomises that.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5395 - 08/06/2021 11:24:55
I'm genuinely not trying to be offensive but religious people do not have a right to their beliefs not being insulted or sneered at imo.
I think that a lot of what religious people believe is silly. They have the right to believe these things ( as long as they do not impinge on others' rights which we know has been a problem in the past and indeed the present with religions) and I have the right to think that they are silly beliefs." I agree with quite a bit of what you say MesAmis. Organised religion in the past was most certainly intolerant. It did impinge upon people's lives most particularly when the way that people lived their lives was perceived to be a threat to that particular religion. That however is not a trait that is unique to organised religion. That is a trait common to societal structures in general most particularly where power was wielded. A threat to the power that individuals wielded was very seldom if ever tolerated. That is true to this day most particularly in dictatorships or indeed theocracies. Ultimately it is part of the human condition that power is to be held on to at any costs irrespective of the suffering that may inflict upon fellow human beings. It is also part of the human condition to abuse power and to inflict unspeakable suffering upon fellow human beings. That is not unique to religious institutions. That permeated all walks of life right throughout human history. Slavery is one example. Empires, conquest and systematic exploitation is another example. In today's society in Ireland institutions are still being protected at all costs. We have seen people enduring intolerable hardship as a result of measures taken to protect our financial institutions. Corruption and abuse are not the preserve of the church. It is part of the human condition. You have every right to disagree with the beliefs of people of faith. However I believe that can be done in a manner that is respectful and tolerant. To overtly sneer at someone's beliefs is intolerant and disrespectful. Sadly I believe we have replaced one intolerant orthodoxy in this country with another orthodoxy that is equally intolerant. Realdub's sentiments epitomise that."
I disagree with your last point though. The 'new orthodoxy' has a long way to go before it could ever even come close to matching the churches (and other religions) levels of real world intolerance. I also don't believe we have a new orthodoxy. We have a huge amount of differing opinions and a culture of questioning each others beliefs in the western world. It can be messy at times but I actually think it is a good thing overall. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but crucially, everyone else is entitled to their right of reply. This is often decried as 'cancel culture' but oftentimes 'cancel culture' is just a cloak that people throw up when questioned on their assertions rather than defending those assertions.
Also I don't think we can compare snide remarks with the atrocities commited by the church over the centuries. Yes, maybe snide remarks about deeply held religious beliefs are hurtful but they are nothing compared to what has gone before.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 08/06/2021 18:03:33
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Replying To tonguey: "So yes you used the church to get married and pay respects to people who lost loved ones?? Could not go to their house/funeral home???
It doesn't matter if you have faith or not- the fact is you used the church that you claim to despise when it suited you to do so. They are the facts and no matter what way you twist it that is the truth.
So you went into this "cult" to suit your own needs. That is very noble now." Let's get this straight, I didn't use the church, the church is where the people went so that's where I went. If it had of been in the depths of hades that's where I would have gone.
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8592 - 08/06/2021 18:11:51
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Replying To realdub: "Cult:
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.
P.S. I am no Liberal." You're being disingenuous. The rest of that definition says, " The cult of St. Olaf." There is also a second definition which says, "A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members."
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 08/06/2021 19:43:02
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Replying To MesAmis: "At the moment few are capable of seeing the bigger picture in terms of the amount of positive things the church did and always look towards the negative things. Yes a lot of bad things happened because of the church. But there is enormous positives also. The church basically set up and maintained an education and health system when it would not have happened to anything like the same extent otherwise. Many poor people would have got no education only for this. Years ago many girls got a great education because of the nuns at a time when girls education would not have been as high priority as now. In this way the church played a huge part in moving Ireland away from the very poor country in had been.
Reading some history of local GAA in Meath the religious years ago were often huge driving forces in local GAA which gave people great pride in local communities.
Also lot of missionary priests did huge work in poor countries helping people. I remember watching a program which talked about missionary priests, who were based local communities flying in food to starving people during war time in Biafra and having their planes shot at.
Recently I remember watching a program on the Spanish civil war which was very critical of the church for supporting the nationalist side. It was only after when I did a bit of reading I realised the program was one sided and had a very anti church bias as it ignored the fact that in the Red terror at the start of the war the left wing side murdered without trial about 50,000 innocent people including about 6,000 priests.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 858 - 06/06/2021 20:38:58
The church wanted control over education and health for their own ends though. They weren't only doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.
The fact that the state, both under British and Irish rule abdicated control of health and education to the church is an inditement of how much control the church had in general, this power in health and education was used by the church to control, abuse and indoctrinate people thus holding onto power.
There were good people involved in the church and they did positive things, that is not in question. However, overall the church has generally been about consolidating power over people and accumulating wealth throughout its history, which has caused untold misery. The sheer scale of the bad far outweighs the good." I disagree with you not giving the church credit for what they did for Irish education. If it was all only about wanting control the church would have not wanted people to have minimal education.
What got the church into education and health initially wasn't that they took it off the state, it was that the state wasn't providing much for the masses. The Irish state after being set up was fairly impoverished so wasn't in much of a position to take education and health off the church. I also think looking at other countries such as America I'd be careful with you wish for in terms of the state removing the church from education. In many countries secular public education turns out not to be that good.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1349 - 08/06/2021 20:00:20
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Replying To Greengrass: "You're being disingenuous. The rest of that definition says, " The cult of St. Olaf." There is also a second definition which says, "A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members."" It's the same bloody thing, following something and being indoctrinated. Let's not get all pedantic mannn.
Look, they're a full creep show, you're wasting your time defending that with me, wanna know Jesus? Go to Jesus, not some pervy cult masquerading in his name.
Remember it was also a dumping ground for the young gay men in this country, and they were your priests. Hardly a vocation.
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8592 - 08/06/2021 20:17:06
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Replying To bdbuddah: " Replying To MesAmis: "At the moment few are capable of seeing the bigger picture in terms of the amount of positive things the church did and always look towards the negative things. Yes a lot of bad things happened because of the church. But there is enormous positives also. The church basically set up and maintained an education and health system when it would not have happened to anything like the same extent otherwise. Many poor people would have got no education only for this. Years ago many girls got a great education because of the nuns at a time when girls education would not have been as high priority as now. In this way the church played a huge part in moving Ireland away from the very poor country in had been.
Reading some history of local GAA in Meath the religious years ago were often huge driving forces in local GAA which gave people great pride in local communities.
Also lot of missionary priests did huge work in poor countries helping people. I remember watching a program which talked about missionary priests, who were based local communities flying in food to starving people during war time in Biafra and having their planes shot at.
Recently I remember watching a program on the Spanish civil war which was very critical of the church for supporting the nationalist side. It was only after when I did a bit of reading I realised the program was one sided and had a very anti church bias as it ignored the fact that in the Red terror at the start of the war the left wing side murdered without trial about 50,000 innocent people including about 6,000 priests.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 858 - 06/06/2021 20:38:58
The church wanted control over education and health for their own ends though. They weren't only doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.
The fact that the state, both under British and Irish rule abdicated control of health and education to the church is an inditement of how much control the church had in general, this power in health and education was used by the church to control, abuse and indoctrinate people thus holding onto power.
There were good people involved in the church and they did positive things, that is not in question. However, overall the church has generally been about consolidating power over people and accumulating wealth throughout its history, which has caused untold misery. The sheer scale of the bad far outweighs the good." I disagree with you not giving the church credit for what they did for Irish education. If it was all only about wanting control the church would have not wanted people to have minimal education. What got the church into education and health initially wasn't that they took it off the state, it was that the state wasn't providing much for the masses. The Irish state after being set up was fairly impoverished so wasn't in much of a position to take education and health off the church. I also think looking at other countries such as America I'd be careful with you wish for in terms of the state removing the church from education. In many countries secular public education turns out not to be that good."
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8592 - 08/06/2021 20:21:20
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Replying To realdub: "Ok my wife craved the traditional wedding, not me. Had nothing to do with faith its just the way this country rolls. Furthermore the only time I've been in a church since was to pay respect to the loved ones of a deceased friend or family member. Again, nothing to do with faith.
The teachings of a cult who has murdered babies and abused young boys and girls will receive zero respect from me. I didn't care whether he cared, it was my response to his question which was posed in the most arrogant and demeaning tone." Murdered babies?. I have never read anywhere the church murdered babies. The wrong committed by the church in relation to baby deaths in homes was of neglect, they didn't provide proper care and these poor babies died. This was a bad wrong by the church but stop saying crazy comments that as if there was a policy of killing babies.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1349 - 08/06/2021 20:23:35
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