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Replying To bdbuddah: "At the moment few are capable of seeing the bigger picture in terms of the amount of positive things the church did and always look towards the negative things. Yes a lot of bad things happened because of the church. But there is enormous positives also. The church basically set up and maintained an education and health system when it would not have happened to anything like the same extent otherwise. Many poor people would have got no education only for this. Years ago many girls got a great education because of the nuns at a time when girls education would not have been as high priority as now. In this way the church played a huge part in moving Ireland away from the very poor country in had been.
Reading some history of local GAA in Meath the religious years ago were often huge driving forces in local GAA which gave people great pride in local communities.
Also lot of missionary priests did huge work in poor countries helping people. I remember watching a program which talked about missionary priests, who were based local communities flying in food to starving people during war time in Biafra and having their planes shot at.
Recently I remember watching a program on the Spanish civil war which was very critical of the church for supporting the nationalist side. It was only after when I did a bit of reading I realised the program was one sided and had a very anti church bias as it ignored the fact that in the Red terror at the start of the war the left wing side murdered without trial about 50,000 innocent people including about 6,000 priests." For balance can you post a detailed description of the many bad things that had happened with the church in this country?
Dubsfan28 (Dublin) - Posts: 2509 - 07/06/2021 00:54:53
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Replying To GreenandRed: "They did plenty of good and continue to do so. But their abuse of children and code of silence outweighs any good they've done for me." But countless other agencies were complicit in that abuse. I am over 70 years of age and even when I was a child every one knew Orphanages were hell holes. Yet parents, often of both the young parents involved, Medical personnel, Social Workers, Journalists, and indeed society at large were all complicit in what went on in these places. I remember a young man called John Feeney attempting to rightly criticise Archbishop John C McQuaid on the 'Late Late Show' one night, about fifty Five years ago, and Gay Byrne, the so called 'great Liberator', practically took the head off him for having a cut off the great man that 'did so much good'. Gaybo gave an worse performance the night he belittled Annie Murphy.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 07/06/2021 09:40:01
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Replying To Greengrass: "Ah here. You're at it too. He only had two of his wives executed. Mind you Anne Boleyn was convicted on trumped up charges of which she was entirely innocent. There were also five men including her brother executed over that particular affair. They were innocent too. The second poor victim was his fifth wife, Catherine Howard. She was alleged to have been having an affair with Thomas Culpeper whist married to Henry. It wasn't the wisest thing to do. Mind you she was only nineteen when she was executed. Henry did become a rather nasty individual. Thomas Cromwell would bear testimony to that." Indeed you are right- I stand corrected - Ah shure, he was not the worst of them at all.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 07/06/2021 09:42:16
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Replying To Oldtourman: "Indeed you are right- I stand corrected - Ah shure, he was not the worst of them at all." I wouldn't like to have annoyed him Oldtourman,
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 07/06/2021 10:19:35
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We all have our idiosyncrasies and believes. My young neighbour comes and gets the water from my tap because I have a well. He will not drink the municipal water because he believes the authorities are drugging us. I ask do you believe that ? What about that thing you are puffing into your lungs ? You don't think those tobacco companies could be slipping something into them ? No answer.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 07/06/2021 17:16:05
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Replying To Oldtourman: "But countless other agencies were complicit in that abuse. I am over 70 years of age and even when I was a child every one knew Orphanages were hell holes. Yet parents, often of both the young parents involved, Medical personnel, Social Workers, Journalists, and indeed society at large were all complicit in what went on in these places. I remember a young man called John Feeney attempting to rightly criticise Archbishop John C McQuaid on the 'Late Late Show' one night, about fifty Five years ago, and Gay Byrne, the so called 'great Liberator', practically took the head off him for having a cut off the great man that 'did so much good'. Gaybo gave an worse performance the night he belittled Annie Murphy." My reply was blocked. Others were complicit because the church created a culture of fear amongst it's followers.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7344 - 07/06/2021 17:54:42
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Replying To GreenandRed: "My reply was blocked. Others were complicit because the church created a culture of fear amongst it's followers." Well there were ten people of roughly my age in a particular part of rural Ireland that, who were all born into, what they used call outside wedlock, from about twenty years older that me to about ten years younger. They were all reared with their mother's families and almost all grew up to be fine decent, hard working people, with grown up families of their own now. Significantly, they were all born to members of working class families. I feel when these things happened in farming and professional families 'what the neighbours would say' was feared just as much as what the Church might do. The Church also preached against joining the IRA and other things back then and certain people took absolutely no notice of them. A priest in a local parish as far back as about 1880 was lambasting his congregation about boycotting the local Landlord. An elderly uneducated woman, who happened to be my two times Great Grandmother, rose from the pew and shouted at the Priest 'you are talking nonsense Father' and walked with no little noise out of the Church. Several of the congregation, mainly other women acting in support followed her. Apparently the Priest never mentioned the Landlord issue again. I know of two situations, one in the twenties, and the other the case on which 'The Field' is based, in the late Fifties, where Bishops begged their followers to give information to authorities, which might lead to the apprehension and possible conviction of murderers. In both cases people seems to have steadfastly resisted the Churches pleadings to cooperate with these inquiries. The Church excommunicated De Valera and his followers in 1922, yet ten years the people- 90% Roman Catholic- returned them to power. There are several other examples I could quote to of where the Laity did not do what their Priests told them.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 07/06/2021 19:50:32
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Replying To Oldtourman: "Well there were ten people of roughly my age in a particular part of rural Ireland that, who were all born into, what they used call outside wedlock, from about twenty years older that me to about ten years younger. They were all reared with their mother's families and almost all grew up to be fine decent, hard working people, with grown up families of their own now. Significantly, they were all born to members of working class families. I feel when these things happened in farming and professional families 'what the neighbours would say' was feared just as much as what the Church might do. The Church also preached against joining the IRA and other things back then and certain people took absolutely no notice of them. A priest in a local parish as far back as about 1880 was lambasting his congregation about boycotting the local Landlord. An elderly uneducated woman, who happened to be my two times Great Grandmother, rose from the pew and shouted at the Priest 'you are talking nonsense Father' and walked with no little noise out of the Church. Several of the congregation, mainly other women acting in support followed her. Apparently the Priest never mentioned the Landlord issue again. I know of two situations, one in the twenties, and the other the case on which 'The Field' is based, in the late Fifties, where Bishops begged their followers to give information to authorities, which might lead to the apprehension and possible conviction of murderers. In both cases people seems to have steadfastly resisted the Churches pleadings to cooperate with these inquiries. The Church excommunicated De Valera and his followers in 1922, yet ten years the people- 90% Roman Catholic- returned them to power. There are several other examples I could quote to of where the Laity did not do what their Priests told them." Why should anyone have done what what their priest told them what to do?
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7344 - 07/06/2021 20:13:43
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Replying To Dubsfan28: "For balance can you post a detailed description of the many bad things that had happened with the church in this country?" For balance? There was no balance. Evil far outweighed good in that cult. Preaching on marriage and children when they would be the least qualified.
Even in recent enough times, I was questioned by the parish priest in the lead up to my own wedding (in the 90s) regarding my first son having been already born.
Told him to get fucked and that I'd gladly take my business elsewhere. This was followed subsequently by an apology.
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8591 - 07/06/2021 20:59:29
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If you believe in the Mayo curse story that priest at the funeral in Foxford must have had strong connections.
The church is unrecognisable now from when I was young, before covid you'd only get a full house really at a big funeral or Easter or Christmas, changed times, when we were young everyone was supposed to be scared of the priest, turns out in a lot of cases we should have been.
Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2747 - 07/06/2021 21:19:55
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Replying To realdub: "For balance? There was no balance. Evil far outweighed good in that cult. Preaching on marriage and children when they would be the least qualified.
Even in recent enough times, I was questioned by the parish priest in the lead up to my own wedding (in the 90s) regarding my first son having been already born.
Told him to get fucked and that I'd gladly take my business elsewhere. This was followed subsequently by an apology." Cult?
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 07/06/2021 22:07:36
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Replying To Dubsfan28: "For balance can you post a detailed description of the many bad things that had happened with the church in this country?" People here, judging by the comments, have already had plenty of the bad stuff detailed to them. The whole point of previous post was, as a means to provide balance, write down some of the positive contribution.
Another thing I think Irish is people tend to be more family and community orientated than British or other traditionally protestant countries who tend to be much more individualistic. Other traditionally Catholic countries like Italy or Spain are said to have this trait also. For better or worse, and even if most of the people in the countries are now mainly secular, countries like Ireland/ Italy or Spain have national identities/ values that are hugely influenced by the Catholic church even if a lot of the people in them them don't actually realise it.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1347 - 07/06/2021 22:11:07
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Replying To Greengrass: "Cult?" Yep
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8591 - 07/06/2021 23:02:17
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Replying To GreenandRed: "Why should anyone have done what what their priest told them what to do?" My point is they were opposed far more often in the past that we think and they were certainly not opposed often enough by people who were in a position to do so. I do not for one minute claim the Church were not at serious fault, but there were others culprits as well and we should not forget that
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 08/06/2021 09:08:19
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Replying To bdbuddah: "People here, judging by the comments, have already had plenty of the bad stuff detailed to them. The whole point of previous post was, as a means to provide balance, write down some of the positive contribution.
Another thing I think Irish is people tend to be more family and community orientated than British or other traditionally protestant countries who tend to be much more individualistic. Other traditionally Catholic countries like Italy or Spain are said to have this trait also. For better or worse, and even if most of the people in the countries are now mainly secular, countries like Ireland/ Italy or Spain have national identities/ values that are hugely influenced by the Catholic church even if a lot of the people in them them don't actually realise it." There was plenty young girls in Britain who had to give their children for adoption as well, due to Parental pressure and as late as the Seventies at that. You just look at the 'Lost Families' for confirmation of this.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 08/06/2021 09:12:51
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At the moment few are capable of seeing the bigger picture in terms of the amount of positive things the church did and always look towards the negative things. Yes a lot of bad things happened because of the church. But there is enormous positives also. The church basically set up and maintained an education and health system when it would not have happened to anything like the same extent otherwise. Many poor people would have got no education only for this. Years ago many girls got a great education because of the nuns at a time when girls education would not have been as high priority as now. In this way the church played a huge part in moving Ireland away from the very poor country in had been.
Reading some history of local GAA in Meath the religious years ago were often huge driving forces in local GAA which gave people great pride in local communities.
Also lot of missionary priests did huge work in poor countries helping people. I remember watching a program which talked about missionary priests, who were based local communities flying in food to starving people during war time in Biafra and having their planes shot at.
Recently I remember watching a program on the Spanish civil war which was very critical of the church for supporting the nationalist side. It was only after when I did a bit of reading I realised the program was one sided and had a very anti church bias as it ignored the fact that in the Red terror at the start of the war the left wing side murdered without trial about 50,000 innocent people including about 6,000 priests.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 858 - 06/06/2021 20:38:58
The church wanted control over education and health for their own ends though. They weren't only doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.
The fact that the state, both under British and Irish rule abdicated control of health and education to the church is an inditement of how much control the church had in general, this power in health and education was used by the church to control, abuse and indoctrinate people thus holding onto power.
There were good people involved in the church and they did positive things, that is not in question. However, overall the church has generally been about consolidating power over people and accumulating wealth throughout its history, which has caused untold misery. The sheer scale of the bad far outweighs the good.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 08/06/2021 11:03:23
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Replying To realdub: "Yep" You are being highly disrespectful of the people who profess a genuinely held faith. Those people have a right to profess that faith without their beliefs being insulted. Sadly in the shiny, newly inclusive, "liberal" Ireland sneering at people who profess a faith and sneering at their faith has become all too common. Your post and attitude epitomises that.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 08/06/2021 11:24:55
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Replying To Greengrass: "You are being highly disrespectful of the people who profess a genuinely held faith. Those people have a right to profess that faith without their beliefs being insulted. Sadly in the shiny, newly inclusive, "liberal" Ireland sneering at people who profess a faith and sneering at their faith has become all too common. Your post and attitude epitomises that." That's his opinion. I respect anyone that's genuinely devout in any faith. But people's opinions can be swayed those that claimed how devout they were and are and disrespected people of their faith and other faiths. The majority of Irish Catholics, clergy and laity were and ate very good and decent people. Just like in a lot of of organisations, not just religious, the bad deeds of the minority, influences people's opinions of the whole organisation. There's nothing wrong with being liberal or conservative or centrist thinking unless it harms people.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7344 - 08/06/2021 12:20:51
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Replying To MesAmis: "At the moment few are capable of seeing the bigger picture in terms of the amount of positive things the church did and always look towards the negative things. Yes a lot of bad things happened because of the church. But there is enormous positives also. The church basically set up and maintained an education and health system when it would not have happened to anything like the same extent otherwise. Many poor people would have got no education only for this. Years ago many girls got a great education because of the nuns at a time when girls education would not have been as high priority as now. In this way the church played a huge part in moving Ireland away from the very poor country in had been.
Reading some history of local GAA in Meath the religious years ago were often huge driving forces in local GAA which gave people great pride in local communities.
Also lot of missionary priests did huge work in poor countries helping people. I remember watching a program which talked about missionary priests, who were based local communities flying in food to starving people during war time in Biafra and having their planes shot at.
Recently I remember watching a program on the Spanish civil war which was very critical of the church for supporting the nationalist side. It was only after when I did a bit of reading I realised the program was one sided and had a very anti church bias as it ignored the fact that in the Red terror at the start of the war the left wing side murdered without trial about 50,000 innocent people including about 6,000 priests.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 858 - 06/06/2021 20:38:58
The church wanted control over education and health for their own ends though. They weren't only doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.
The fact that the state, both under British and Irish rule abdicated control of health and education to the church is an inditement of how much control the church had in general, this power in health and education was used by the church to control, abuse and indoctrinate people thus holding onto power.
There were good people involved in the church and they did positive things, that is not in question. However, overall the church has generally been about consolidating power over people and accumulating wealth throughout its history, which has caused untold misery. The sheer scale of the bad far outweighs the good." That's the thing I could never understand about the catholic church, it had so much wealth but was always collecting money for the poor and starving in the world. if it was practicing what it preached it would have given away its wealth to feed the poor, that was surely the 'Christian' thing to do.
Then you'd see the parish priest with this new car, a maid to do the housework and a fine big house for nothing, handy oul gig too if you were that way inclined.
I think a lot of gays and paedophiles joined the church too as a way to hide from society and in the case of the paedos it gave them access to children,
now there were lots of good priests I know but the whole thing is rotten really, and I'm not even going to mention the nuns.
Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2747 - 08/06/2021 12:44:41
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Replying To realdub: "For balance? There was no balance. Evil far outweighed good in that cult. Preaching on marriage and children when they would be the least qualified.
Even in recent enough times, I was questioned by the parish priest in the lead up to my own wedding (in the 90s) regarding my first son having been already born.
Told him to get fucked and that I'd gladly take my business elsewhere. This was followed subsequently by an apology." How very noble of you- I am sure he was so glad to get your "business". It was a real coup I am sure!! Do you really think he cared if you went elsewhere??? Full of self importance you seem to be.
He was speaking about the teachings of the Catholic Church which as a priest he had every right to do- if you did not agree or could not understand what they were, why were you going there looking to get married in a Catholic Church??
Some people seem to bang on and on and give out about the Church, yet they use it when it suits!!!!!
the creeler (Cavan) - Posts: 512 - 08/06/2021 12:46:39
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