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Anthem Protocol

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Replying To bad.monkey:  "They didnt exist. I think Protestants only started as the Catholic church was selling 'passes' into heaven for rich people who donated money to build a solid gold dome for the popes house in Rome. Classy. Both groups are religion based groups and exclude others based on that. Society would be better off without them."
Fairly succinct historical analysis there bad monkey. I don't think there is too much accurate historical perspective in that view.
I really think that commentators need to be very mindful of current culture and the impact of brief efforts at analysis to complex situations that actually reinforce prejudices and hence damage work done and being done by those keen to heal and bring communities together. Responsibility in being accurate would be appreciated before commenting.

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1606 - 04/06/2021 23:03:11    2348327

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Replying To tonguey:  "Where did I say I blamed "entire modern society" for the views of some??? Point that out please.

I have no problem with people speaking facts- the fact is some people in the church did evil things- not every person in the church. I understand you may have difficulty comprehending that but that is your problem not mine.

In your circles you say people do not have faith in the church- that is fine, that is their perogative. I do not really care who has faith or who does not- my point is that there are a lot of people in the church who are extremely good, well intentioned people and "in my circles" I know that it really hurts them when they hear people who like to jump on bandwagons say "the church" did this, that or the other. They are a part of "the church" so therefore by people saying that it means they are included.

No doubt people in the church did evil things, but that is the way it should be stated- people in the church- not "THE CHURCH"

Democracy is not allowing people to do what they want- driving too fast because I want to, rob houses because I want to, assault people because I want to- are you saying they should be allowed in democracy?? I hope you are not a judge as if you are nobody would be convicted. "Oh I am sorry your honour, I just stole 10,000 from the post office because I wanted to and as it is a democracy you can do what you want." I think you are mixing up democracy and anarchy."
The Church v people in the church. Splitting hairs really.

To be honest, I'd take the argument that some people in the Church did good acts but not the Church itself more seriously.

I find it odd that you're so concerned about good people in the church feeling hurt about other people recognising the churches evil deeds

If you align yourself with an organisation that has tried to control people for a millenia, discriminated against everyone else, forgiven, hid and moved known sex offenders around the world giving them countless opportunities to abuse the vulnerable, denied the most basic of scientific facts, all the while taking as much money from anyone and everyone to enrich themselves as a organisation to the most ostentatious levels then you have to expect that some people might find that a little odd.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13302 - 04/06/2021 23:04:24    2348328

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "The prods would still be catholics only for Henry the 8th wanting a divorce and a younger woman. maybe he had a point lol."
Martin Luther started Protestantism long before Henry wanted a Divorce and Henry wrote a powerful rebuttal of Luther's ideas for which the Pope granted him the title 'Defender of the Faith' It should also be noted that Henry never regarded himself as a Protestant, but as a Catholic in dispute with Rome.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2913 - 04/06/2021 23:43:01    2348333

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Martin Luther started Protestantism long before Henry wanted a Divorce and Henry wrote a powerful rebuttal of Luther's ideas for which the Pope granted him the title 'Defender of the Faith' It should also be noted that Henry never regarded himself as a Protestant, but as a Catholic in dispute with Rome."
To me Henry 8th was like a monster. He beheaded 3 or 4 of his wives. Strange behaviour indeed.

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 2181 - 05/06/2021 12:00:32    2348382

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Martin Luther started Protestantism long before Henry wanted a Divorce and Henry wrote a powerful rebuttal of Luther's ideas for which the Pope granted him the title 'Defender of the Faith' It should also be noted that Henry never regarded himself as a Protestant, but as a Catholic in dispute with Rome."
Spot on Oldtourman. Henry remained a Catholic, although split from Rome. His children continued the Reformation.

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 269 - 05/06/2021 12:05:22    2348386

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Replying To galwayford:  "To me Henry 8th was like a monster. He beheaded 3 or 4 of his wives. Strange behaviour indeed."
GF, Poor auld Henry got a bad press in Ireland. When I was a young I was told that Henry had eight wives and that he done away with six of them. However on later investigation I found out he only had six wives and that he only had three of them executed. Even you have slyly tried to exaggerate by claiming he done away with four of them. Is there any rounds that people won't go to to give a lad a bad name.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2913 - 05/06/2021 13:39:53    2348402

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I remember the thrill of the anthem being played in the 70s and 80s, and the paras / other squaddies outside. It was a way of standing up to them, literally. Agree it should be a recording by a band and also agree about the amout of embarrassingly atrocious "sound" systems still out there; get a grip, they're not dear nowadays

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 908 - 05/06/2021 13:50:53    2348404

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I've always felt emotional pride when the anthem is played on all Ireland final day. The parade has just finished, the Artane band drums are bearing a single beat in anticipation for the war ahead. Then the silence and the anthem followed by the roar. It's magnified when Mayo are in the final but I've attended finals as a neutral and still get that same feeling. You think about the people no longer with us and can feel the history around the stadium and occasion.

In that moment there is nowhere else in the world I'd rather be.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 10583 - 05/06/2021 15:06:56    2348424

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Replying To Bon:  "I think you'll find that the Catholic Church wasn't founded out of hatred of Protestants."
The Catholic church certainly embraced Catholics getting married to Protestants down the years didn't they?

republicofcloone (Leitrim) - Posts: 350 - 05/06/2021 18:29:47    2348474

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Replying To MicktheMiller:  "Spot on Oldtourman. Henry remained a Catholic, although split from Rome. His children continued the Reformation."
He was excommunicated from the Church by the Pope of the time, on the advice of a Leitrim priest I do believe

republicofcloone (Leitrim) - Posts: 350 - 05/06/2021 18:36:12    2348477

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Replying To the_creeler:  "One can see the dichotomy of the thing when you stand back and ponder what is in front of you in general at any given time.
Sectors of Irish society were bad, still are, not everything is bad.
The three pillars of Irish society, on this side of the fence anyway were the church, gaa and fianna fail. It could be argued all three have been massively damaged via numerous reasons.
For the sake of this forum i will ponder a while on the GAA. The GAA was set up to promote the 'amateur' pursuit of gaelic games, athletics and Irish language and be non political. It could be argued that the GAA has completely forgotten about the Irish language except for tokenism, and athletics don't get a look in anymore. In fact when have you last heard about rounders being played either, another GAA remit.
The GAA in my opinion has a couple of things on its mind in the past 15-20 years and that is elitism and money. 'Weaker' counties struggling, who cares, throw them a pat on the head tiered competition structure. that will shut them up. Unequal funding, who cares, Dublin are the cash cow so we'll keep foddering them the euro bills. Sell our games to a British broadcasting channel, shur pensioners can go and watch the games in the pubs if they can't afford to get the tv installed at home, but don't drink too much now. Not that watching the games on RTE are much better, with their unimaginative dull commentating and analysis and presenting.
Until the people take the games back off the suits and the big name useless coaches with their systems and diet plans, then the amateur status is in big trouble. If they want to go semi professional or professional they should just say it and not be cowardly about it."
I think on many levels it's already semi professional.
Have a listen to Paul Curran and Colm orurke podcast. It's only 30 years , in my lifetime anyway. And they way they are treated (players) now to then is like centuries apart.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17530 - 05/06/2021 18:47:09    2348479

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Replying To MicktheMiller:  "Spot on Oldtourman. Henry remained a Catholic, although split from Rome. His children continued the Reformation."
Henry VIII's son Edward VI was only nine when he succeeded to the throne. The Reformation continued apace during his brief reign. He died in 1553 at the age of fifteen. Henry's eldest daughter Mary succeeded Edward. She tried to reverse the Reformation as she was a Catholic. She died in 1558 and was succeeded by Elizabeth I. She reigned until 1603. She cemented the Reformation. Henry VIII is the only English monarch to have been succeeded by each of his three children.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5410 - 05/06/2021 18:47:55    2348480

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "GF, Poor auld Henry got a bad press in Ireland. When I was a young I was told that Henry had eight wives and that he done away with six of them. However on later investigation I found out he only had six wives and that he only had three of them executed. Even you have slyly tried to exaggerate by claiming he done away with four of them. Is there any rounds that people won't go to to give a lad a bad name."
It's amazing how he kept his cool while those around him lost their heads. I heard he backed up any incriminating evidence to the cloud and the finest Russian hackers still can't break the code. Good old Henry the Eighth, the godfather of feminism, the cool ruler. Sure God is good and the divil isn't a bad lad either.

Tune in next week when we can argue that William of Orange was a sound bloke indeed and never ate an orange in his life.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 6091 - 05/06/2021 19:39:22    2348491

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "It's amazing how he kept his cool while those around him lost their heads. I heard he backed up any incriminating evidence to the cloud and the finest Russian hackers still can't break the code. Good old Henry the Eighth, the godfather of feminism, the cool ruler. Sure God is good and the divil isn't a bad lad either.

Tune in next week when we can argue that William of Orange was a sound bloke indeed and never ate an orange in his life."
You remind me of the auld buck, who on his deathbed was asked by the Priest to 'renounce the Devil', 'Father, he queried 'is this the time to be making enemies'.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2913 - 05/06/2021 21:29:21    2348524

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "GF, Poor auld Henry got a bad press in Ireland. When I was a young I was told that Henry had eight wives and that he done away with six of them. However on later investigation I found out he only had six wives and that he only had three of them executed. Even you have slyly tried to exaggerate by claiming he done away with four of them. Is there any rounds that people won't go to to give a lad a bad name."
Ah here. You're at it too. He only had two of his wives executed. Mind you Anne Boleyn was convicted on trumped up charges of which she was entirely innocent. There were also five men including her brother executed over that particular affair. They were innocent too. The second poor victim was his fifth wife, Catherine Howard. She was alleged to have been having an affair with Thomas Culpeper whist married to Henry. It wasn't the wisest thing to do. Mind you she was only nineteen when she was executed. Henry did become a rather nasty individual. Thomas Cromwell would bear testimony to that.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5410 - 05/06/2021 22:46:53    2348559

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "
Replying To essmac:  "The last 3 words of the National Anthem tend to be: "C'mon [NAME OF YOUR COUNTY
!""
Na it's just them heathens about Tyrone that do that !!
that point the man made about fellas shuffling about during the end of the anthem coming from the old IRA's thought's on the free state anthem I have heard that before years ago, think there's something to it."]It doesn't really sound like a likely story to me, sounds to me more like more like a story made up to suit a certain narrative after the event. If some people were going to make a point of disrespected the anthem I can't imagine they would do it in such a half hearted manner.
Reminds me of around the time the centenary of the rising a few years ago we heard some constantly repeating the line in the media 'the men of the rising didn't fight for the state that emerged' always amzed me why I never heard an interviewer answering them back by pointing out the leaders of the state for the first 30 years, Cosgrave, deValera and Lemass all fought in the rising and shaped the state.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 877 - 06/06/2021 11:50:13    2348607

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "
Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "[quote=essmac:  "The last 3 words of the National Anthem tend to be: "C'mon [NAME OF YOUR COUNTY
!""
Na it's just them heathens about Tyrone that do that !!
that point the man made about fellas shuffling about during the end of the anthem coming from the old IRA's thought's on the free state anthem I have heard that before years ago, think there's something to it."]It doesn't really sound like a likely story to me, sounds to me more like more like a story made up to suit a certain narrative after the event. If some people were going to make a point of disrespected the anthem I can't imagine they would do it in such a half hearted manner.
Reminds me of around the time the centenary of the rising a few years ago we heard some constantly repeating the line in the media 'the men of the rising didn't fight for the state that emerged' always amzed me why I never heard an interviewer answering them back by pointing out the leaders of the state for the first 30 years, Cosgrave, deValera and Lemass all fought in the rising and shaped the state."]Well I am 71 years of age and I come from the country where three counties meet, in a land 'where Mountainy Men took on the might of an Empire', I am a life long History Buff and I have never heard that OLD IRA Men, and I knew more than a few, had any serious reservations about the National Anthem.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2913 - 06/06/2021 19:31:18    2348689

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Replying To MesAmis:  "The Church v people in the church. Splitting hairs really.

To be honest, I'd take the argument that some people in the Church did good acts but not the Church itself more seriously.

I find it odd that you're so concerned about good people in the church feeling hurt about other people recognising the churches evil deeds

If you align yourself with an organisation that has tried to control people for a millenia, discriminated against everyone else, forgiven, hid and moved known sex offenders around the world giving them countless opportunities to abuse the vulnerable, denied the most basic of scientific facts, all the while taking as much money from anyone and everyone to enrich themselves as a organisation to the most ostentatious levels then you have to expect that some people might find that a little odd."
At the moment few are capable of seeing the bigger picture in terms of the amount of positive things the church did and always look towards the negative things. Yes a lot of bad things happened because of the church. But there is enormous positives also. The church basically set up and maintained an education and health system when it would not have happened to anything like the same extent otherwise. Many poor people would have got no education only for this. Years ago many girls got a great education because of the nuns at a time when girls education would not have been as high priority as now. In this way the church played a huge part in moving Ireland away from the very poor country in had been.
Reading some history of local GAA in Meath the religious years ago were often huge driving forces in local GAA which gave people great pride in local communities.
Also lot of missionary priests did huge work in poor countries helping people. I remember watching a program which talked about missionary priests, who were based local communities flying in food to starving people during war time in Biafra and having their planes shot at.
Recently I remember watching a program on the Spanish civil war which was very critical of the church for supporting the nationalist side. It was only after when I did a bit of reading I realised the program was one sided and had a very anti church bias as it ignored the fact that in the Red terror at the start of the war the left wing side murdered without trial about 50,000 innocent people including about 6,000 priests.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 877 - 06/06/2021 20:38:58    2348710

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "GF, Poor auld Henry got a bad press in Ireland. When I was a young I was told that Henry had eight wives and that he done away with six of them. However on later investigation I found out he only had six wives and that he only had three of them executed. Even you have slyly tried to exaggerate by claiming he done away with four of them. Is there any rounds that people won't go to to give a lad a bad name."
The Six Wives of Henry VIII

Divorced, beheaded and died
Divorced, beheaded, survived
I'm Henry VIII, I had 6 sorry wives
Some might say I ruined their lives...

Catherine of Aragon was one
She failed to give me a son
I had to ask her for a divorce
That broke her poor heart of course

Young Anne Boleyn, she was two
Had a daughter, the best she could do
I said she flirted with some other man
And off for the chop went dear Anne

Lovely Jane Seymour was three
The love of a lifetime for me
She gave me a son, little prince Ed
Then poor old Jane went and dropped dead

Divorced, beheaded and died
Divorced, beheaded, survived
I'm Henry VIII, I had 6 sorry wives
Some might say I ruined their lives...

Anne of Cleeves came at four
I fell for a portrait I saw
Then laid eyes on her face and cried "She's a horse!
I must have another divorce!"

Catherine Howard was five
A child of 19, so alive
She flirted with others, no way to behave
The axe sent young Cath to her grave

Catherine Parr, she was last
By then all my best days were past
I lay on my deathbed aged just 55
Lucky young Catherine, the last, stayed alive

Divorced, beheaded and died
Divorced, beheaded, survived
I'm Henry VIII, I had 6 sorry wives
You could say I ruined their lives...
Yea, I killed them

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1344 - 06/06/2021 21:06:56    2348714

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "At the moment few are capable of seeing the bigger picture in terms of the amount of positive things the church did and always look towards the negative things. Yes a lot of bad things happened because of the church. But there is enormous positives also. The church basically set up and maintained an education and health system when it would not have happened to anything like the same extent otherwise. Many poor people would have got no education only for this. Years ago many girls got a great education because of the nuns at a time when girls education would not have been as high priority as now. In this way the church played a huge part in moving Ireland away from the very poor country in had been.
Reading some history of local GAA in Meath the religious years ago were often huge driving forces in local GAA which gave people great pride in local communities.
Also lot of missionary priests did huge work in poor countries helping people. I remember watching a program which talked about missionary priests, who were based local communities flying in food to starving people during war time in Biafra and having their planes shot at.
Recently I remember watching a program on the Spanish civil war which was very critical of the church for supporting the nationalist side. It was only after when I did a bit of reading I realised the program was one sided and had a very anti church bias as it ignored the fact that in the Red terror at the start of the war the left wing side murdered without trial about 50,000 innocent people including about 6,000 priests."
They did plenty of good and continue to do so. But their abuse of children and code of silence outweighs any good they've done for me.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 6091 - 06/06/2021 22:46:28    2348739

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