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All rubbish..... The leagues are perfect the way they are... Most if not all teams are playing against similar strength opposition which leads to far better matches.... It's our Championship that is totally lob sided for the most part with probably 60% of the games fore gone conclusions before the ball is even thrown in...what use is that.. The clowns running the GAA are messing up the game enough by tinkering with the rules non stop without putting ideas in their empty heads about the League....

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 217 - 05/06/2021 08:28:25    2348347

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "All rubbish..... The leagues are perfect the way they are... Most if not all teams are playing against similar strength opposition which leads to far better matches.... It's our Championship that is totally lob sided for the most part with probably 60% of the games fore gone conclusions before the ball is even thrown in...what use is that.. The clowns running the GAA are messing up the game enough by tinkering with the rules non stop without putting ideas in their empty heads about the League...."
The leagues should be used as a model for the championship.

That's my main point.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3448 - 05/06/2021 12:06:33    2348387

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That's my problem with the league is perfect as it is idea.

The league is a very good competition but it's actually too good to be the secondary competition.

The hurling championship is pretty much the league but with a regional element added to it. Football could have such a better championship if it was closer to that. It needs to be tiered also.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3448 - 05/06/2021 12:12:45    2348389

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Wham - While I like the two-league season, would 14 games in the 17-week span be too intense ? And, if it alternates North/South and East/West, some pairings would occur twice (e.g. Cork/Kerry, Galw/Mayo, Done/Tyr).

I'd pare back the leagues from 7 games in each half to 6 or 5 games.

6 Regional games = Top 7 round robin and Lower 9 (for fixtures only, 3 groups of 3, teams playing 6 games inter-group), with still 2 up/2 down from the 7 & 9 team tables.

5 Regional games = Top 6 round robin and Lower 10 (5v5), with 1.5 up/1.5 down (playoff 5th v 2nd) from the 6 & 10 team tables.

Or, mix n match - alternate between tier 1 top 6 E/W initial spring league, 1 down/2 up, to top 7 N/S summer league, 2.5 down/1.5 up (playoff 5th v 2nd).

Or, to avoid repeat pairings (in NE, SE, SW, NW), just have one annual 'national' league championship - 16 team, 12 match tier 1 and similar tier 2 - for fixtures only, 4 groups of 4, with similar mixed quality strength, and teams playing all 12 inter-group opponents - top 8 to Aussie AFL style playoffs in each tier (SF 4 up / 4 down).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2028 - 06/06/2021 05:11:37    2348575

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Replying To omahant:  "Wham - While I like the two-league season, would 14 games in the 17-week span be too intense ? And, if it alternates North/South and East/West, some pairings would occur twice (e.g. Cork/Kerry, Galw/Mayo, Done/Tyr).

I'd pare back the leagues from 7 games in each half to 6 or 5 games.

6 Regional games = Top 7 round robin and Lower 9 (for fixtures only, 3 groups of 3, teams playing 6 games inter-group), with still 2 up/2 down from the 7 & 9 team tables.

5 Regional games = Top 6 round robin and Lower 10 (5v5), with 1.5 up/1.5 down (playoff 5th v 2nd) from the 6 & 10 team tables.

Or, mix n match - alternate between tier 1 top 6 E/W initial spring league, 1 down/2 up, to top 7 N/S summer league, 2.5 down/1.5 up (playoff 5th v 2nd).

Or, to avoid repeat pairings (in NE, SE, SW, NW), just have one annual 'national' league championship - 16 team, 12 match tier 1 and similar tier 2 - for fixtures only, 4 groups of 4, with similar mixed quality strength, and teams playing all 12 inter-group opponents - top 8 to Aussie AFL style playoffs in each tier (SF 4 up / 4 down)."
I think you'd have to use a few weeks in February for sure.

Mid Feb to June is fine for a 14 week season.

2 tiers with a 12 game schedule would be fine too though.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3448 - 06/06/2021 14:37:56    2348634

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There are 3 fundamentals to the league which should be remembered
1. It's the best competition we have
2. It's at the wrong time of year
3. It has created an elite which has in-turn reduced the number of all Ireland and provincial contenders (most competitive championships occurred when leagues were 1a/1b and 2a/2b)

At the moment we have an elite competition preparing teams (unevenly) for championship

It should be the other way around

The championship should be an elite of 8 plus 4 going for Sam (plus other tiers)

However the league should be less competitive and give lesser teams exposure to the elite teams

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 839 - 07/06/2021 07:41:05    2348760

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Quite a few of us agree that an upper 16 (1a/1b) and lower 16 (2a/2b) would be a better setup. Only the 4 group winners to respective league finals.

You could use those league placings for AIC entry point as well - say, 1a/1b = top 3 in each to Rd 3; next 4 in each to Rd 2; bottom 1 in each to Rd 1. And, 2a/2b = top 3 in each to Rd 2; bottom 5 in each to Rd 1.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2028 - 08/06/2021 01:33:09    2348890

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There seems to be a bit of a disconnect in terms of what we want the league to be. Do we want it to be an important competition with the best teams playing each other as we have now or do we want it to be primarily about player development and giving players a run out.

For me - its somewhere in between. The Old 1a/1b and 2a/2b structure was more about the latter and the games were slightly less competitive. There's a big enough gap between teams ranked 1,2,3 & teams ranked 14,15,16.

Maybe the solution looks a bit like hurling with a 12 team Division 1 broken into 1A and 1B; a 12 team division 2 broken into 2A and 2B with division 3 sitting below that. That would save a couple of weeks from the league season that could be put towards meaningful championship weeks for everyone.

As for promotion / relegation; I think fluid promotion / relegation works best. Moving to 1 up / 1 down would entrench the teams in each division and further drive a gap in championship competitiveness. If it needed to change I'd sooner move to 3 up / 3 meaning a lot more to play for all around.

But as for now - I don't think there's a big clamor to fix the league. If it isn't really broken you don't need to touch it.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 29 - 08/06/2021 10:35:23    2348919

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Replying To brianb:  "There seems to be a bit of a disconnect in terms of what we want the league to be. Do we want it to be an important competition with the best teams playing each other as we have now or do we want it to be primarily about player development and giving players a run out.

For me - its somewhere in between. The Old 1a/1b and 2a/2b structure was more about the latter and the games were slightly less competitive. There's a big enough gap between teams ranked 1,2,3 & teams ranked 14,15,16.

Maybe the solution looks a bit like hurling with a 12 team Division 1 broken into 1A and 1B; a 12 team division 2 broken into 2A and 2B with division 3 sitting below that. That would save a couple of weeks from the league season that could be put towards meaningful championship weeks for everyone.

As for promotion / relegation; I think fluid promotion / relegation works best. Moving to 1 up / 1 down would entrench the teams in each division and further drive a gap in championship competitiveness. If it needed to change I'd sooner move to 3 up / 3 meaning a lot more to play for all around.

But as for now - I don't think there's a big clamor to fix the league. If it isn't really broken you don't need to touch it."
If the league is to remain a secondary competition I think it's very much not broken.

The fixtures review committee did highlight that the league could be used as the championship though. It was a bloody awful format that was proposed with 10 going through to the All Ireland playoffs and then there also being a second tier cup competition for division 3 and 4 counties where they could get promotion out of their division if they won it.

The other proposal that came out was to have North, East, South and West championships replace Ulster, Leinster, Munster and Connacht. Each region would have 8 teams.

I just think if you want a more league based approach to the championship you just go 2 tiers of 2 groups of 8 in each. If you want you could regionalise it North and South.

Just seems a lot better than the other mooted formats.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3448 - 08/06/2021 15:34:54    2349018

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "All rubbish..... The leagues are perfect the way they are... Most if not all teams are playing against similar strength opposition which leads to far better matches.... It's our Championship that is totally lob sided for the most part with probably 60% of the games fore gone conclusions before the ball is even thrown in...what use is that.. The clowns running the GAA are messing up the game enough by tinkering with the rules non stop without putting ideas in their empty heads about the League...."
You 100% on the money. League by far the most interesting competition. Just a pity it not played in summer months.

seamusorinn (USA) - Posts: 160 - 08/06/2021 23:42:12    2349134

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To give more teams a better chance of silverware in the league and championship - how about 6 tiered divisions of team quantities 5, 6, 5, 5, 6, 5.
5-team divs play a round robin, and they also play the 6 teams in the div above or below.
Everyone plays a 10-match season of 'sliding scale quality', 1up / 1 down, top 2 in each div contest one of the 6 league finals, 5 winners are promoted.

Use league placings for AIC entry point -
Top 3-2-1-0-0-0 to Rd 3;
Bottom 0-0-0-3-5-4 to Rd 1;
Other 14 to Rd 2.

Have similar 5-6-5-5-6-5 in hurling (league only; championship unchanged as the current tiered structure works).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2028 - 09/06/2021 02:45:56    2349140

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Replying To omahant:  "To give more teams a better chance of silverware in the league and championship - how about 6 tiered divisions of team quantities 5, 6, 5, 5, 6, 5.
5-team divs play a round robin, and they also play the 6 teams in the div above or below.
Everyone plays a 10-match season of 'sliding scale quality', 1up / 1 down, top 2 in each div contest one of the 6 league finals, 5 winners are promoted.

Use league placings for AIC entry point -
Top 3-2-1-0-0-0 to Rd 3;
Bottom 0-0-0-3-5-4 to Rd 1;
Other 14 to Rd 2.

Have similar 5-6-5-5-6-5 in hurling (league only; championship unchanged as the current tiered structure works)."
I really don't like it. I don't like it in hurling either.

This one for everyone in the audience approach to championship medals I don't like.

It's a little more understandable in hurling because there is a decent spread in the standards.

In football i just think it's completely unnecessary. 4 tiers is a lot for 32 teams for the NFL. It's fine because it is the secondary competition but there's not a lot between the middle 20 teams in football.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3448 - 09/06/2021 11:44:27    2349175

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What ? - it's wonderful ! :) -
You don't have to like it - in lieu of a single div Top 16, I am just tiering these for a more targetted and lower count 10 games - e.g. the Top 5 play the Top 11 for div 1 final places; the Lower 5 (of Top 16) play the Lower 11, akin to a current div 2 schedule with three current div 1 opponents added in.

Would you prefer 2 tiers of 16, each with 3 balanced mixed quality groups of 5, 6, 5 in each (again 10 games, with groups 1a, 1b, 1c. 2a, 2b & 2c) - best 4 records to each Tier SFs - Tier 2 SF 4 up/ 4 down (worst 4 Tier 1 records).

Now, for the AIC Sam entry point, I'd have -
NFL Tier 1 Top 6 to Rd 3;
NFL Tier 1 & 2, Bottom 2 & 10 to Rd 1;
Other 14 to Rd 2.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2028 - 09/06/2021 22:44:48    2349299

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Replying To omahant:  "What ? - it's wonderful ! :) -
You don't have to like it - in lieu of a single div Top 16, I am just tiering these for a more targetted and lower count 10 games - e.g. the Top 5 play the Top 11 for div 1 final places; the Lower 5 (of Top 16) play the Lower 11, akin to a current div 2 schedule with three current div 1 opponents added in.

Would you prefer 2 tiers of 16, each with 3 balanced mixed quality groups of 5, 6, 5 in each (again 10 games, with groups 1a, 1b, 1c. 2a, 2b & 2c) - best 4 records to each Tier SFs - Tier 2 SF 4 up/ 4 down (worst 4 Tier 1 records).

Now, for the AIC Sam entry point, I'd have -
NFL Tier 1 Top 6 to Rd 3;
NFL Tier 1 & 2, Bottom 2 & 10 to Rd 1;
Other 14 to Rd 2."
I do just think simple single round robins or at most a simple enough Shara style format would be way more accessible for the average fan.

2 groups of 8 in a 16 team tier just would be very easily understood at get a lot of top quality games in.

If you need more fixtures maybe 2 conferences of 8 where they play each other once in their own and half of the 8 teams in the other conference could work and provide 11 games each.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3448 - 10/06/2021 10:31:06    2349330

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Maybe you do something like 16 teams, 4 are designated north east, 4 south east, 4 south west, 4 north west. A north west team plays the other north west teams, the 4 north east teams and the 4 south west teams. Maybe they play just 1 fixture v a South east team.

Would mean Mayo would play Galway each year and it wouldn't just be Northern and Southern rivalries maintained.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3448 - 10/06/2021 11:54:08    2349347

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I would like to see a 16/16 league with each division split east - west one year and then north - south the other years

Promotion would then be 4 up and 4 down

I would then like the final standings to decide who enters what tier of a regional championship

2 tiers of 12 teams and a bottom tier of 10 - Kilkenny and New York getting in

Each championship group being split in the opposite direction

Based on this years leagues…….
Div 1 west would be -Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone, Kerry, Roscommon, Clare, Cork, Galway,
Div 1 east would be - Dublin, Meath, Kildare, Down, Armagh, Monaghan, Laois, Westmeath

Aeschylus team getting 7 matches plus league final
Bottom two in each div get relegated

The All Ireland A championship would then be:
North - Mayo, Roscommon, Donegal, Tyrone, Armagh, Monaghan

South - Dublin, Meath, Kildare, Kerry, Clare, Galway

Each team getting 5 matches
Top team in each div goes into all ireland semi
2nd and 3rd teams in each div go into all ireland q finals
Bottom team gets relegated
2nd from bottom plays off vs losing all ireland B semi finalists

League and championship separated completely from then on - team could be in A championship but div 2 league

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 839 - 11/06/2021 04:19:25    2349513

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That would be very exciting all 'round. Teams guaranteed 12 matches per year (7+5) and at most 4 KO matches (1+3). I like the separation of promotion between NFL and AIC, and the alternating regional change - although fixing east/west for NFL and north/south for AIC would work too.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2028 - 11/06/2021 12:04:42    2349558

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Maybe you do something like 16 teams, 4 are designated north east, 4 south east, 4 south west, 4 north west. A north west team plays the other north west teams, the 4 north east teams and the 4 south west teams. Maybe they play just 1 fixture v a South east team.

Would mean Mayo would play Galway each year and it wouldn't just be Northern and Southern rivalries maintained."
For fixture determination, I had one idea for a 12-match season based on 4 groups of 4, with each team playing all inter-group opponents. This could incorporate your regional breakdown by assiging one team from each region to each group. Then I'd have each team playing 3 teams from each of the 4 regions (v your 3, 4, 4, 1).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2028 - 11/06/2021 22:41:38    2349682

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Maybe you do something like 16 teams, 4 are designated north east, 4 south east, 4 south west, 4 north west. A north west team plays the other north west teams, the 4 north east teams and the 4 south west teams. Maybe they play just 1 fixture v a South east team.

Would mean Mayo would play Galway each year and it wouldn't just be Northern and Southern rivalries maintained."
When they talked about a 4 Eights, why didn't think of something new/refreshing like along those NW, NE, SE and SW lines.
I have to stay, it still looks unbalanced - maybe we need 4 mixed National Conferences of 8 (further below, targeting mixed quality balance with certain rivalries retained, not all).

NW 8= Done, Tyr, Ferm, Mayo, Slig, Leit, Long, Wmea
NE 8= Derr, Arma, Antr, Down, Cav, Mona, Louth, Mea,
SE 8 = Lein 11, plus Lond/Kilk, less Lou, Mea, Long, Wmea
SW 8 = Muns 6, plus Galw, Rosc

Conf A = Dubs, Mea, Wick, Derr, Ant, Tipp, Lime, Leit
Conf B = Kerry, Cork, Lou, Long, Wmea, Cav, Mona, Rosc
Conf C = Mayo, Galw, Done, Tyr, Wex, Carl, Kilk/Lond, Clar
Conf D = Arma, Down, Ferm, Kild, Lao, Off, Slig, Wat

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2028 - 12/06/2021 02:29:12    2349697

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