National Forum

Donegal V Dublin

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Replying To kiloughter:  "Slightly tongue in cheek but if Dublin have it handy in Leinster and you are correct on that front as it is the weakest province arguably Mayo have it awful easy given they are in the semi final already according to your good self. I do get what you are saying in general and if there was ever a time for an open draw with Covid etc and thus limiting the desire for the tradition of keeping the provincial championships this was the moment. Unfortunately missed. The other point about Ulster though is what makes it a good provincial championship is it has the most teams of a relatively equal standard. That does not make the teams better than in the other provinces necessarily and the record shows that since your great win in the 2014 semi final only Mayo and Kerry have come close to the Dubs at the business end of the season."
Sure - but this is not about which province has the better teams. The issue is about how being in a more evenly-matched province is to any Ulster team's disadvantage. This is about a structure which means that Ulster teams have to be at full throttle earlier in the season; which, as any modern trainer will tell you, is far from ideal when facing teams who have the luxury of peaking later.

(It's also the reason why, in the provincial club championship in Ulster, Tyrone teams regularly under-perform, because they have to put all they have into the winning the county; and they never get a run at the provincial championship.)

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 02/06/2021 18:49:11    2347795

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Replying To TheRock2121:  "Not starting another argument here but it's a shame this great Dublin team don't get tested, no fault of their own. No disrespect to Cavan or an aging Mayo but last year most teams would have fancied their chances of winning An All Ireland if that was the last 2 teams to beat.

This year they play Mayo in the semi final, who by their fans own accounts, aren't the same force as they were. Dublin could win by 10 plus and that's them in another All Ireland final.

Nothing new in this post but the All Ireland series is a complete joke. Needs restructuring. Dublin aren't even thinking about Leinster and all eyes on Donegal. While we have to worry about a Down team who destroyed the reigning Ulster champions in the first half of their semi final last year. If we get over that if have the form team in Ulster, Derry under the ex Donegal manager Rory Gallagher. If we win that we have Tyrone no doubt in a neutral venue. Win that and we play another division one team in Armagh or Monaghan.

While Dublin play, with all due respect, Wicklow, Carlow and the winner of Meath/Kildare.

An honest question, how many All Irelands would Dublin have if they were in Ulster before the All Ireland knockout series!?

Again, this is not a dig at this great Dublin team, the greatest we will ever see, it's just frustrating that the draw each year gives them, and Kerry, huge advantages over the rest, especially Ulster teams.

If a team wins Ulster, they celebrate after an epic run through the province, Dublin use Leinster as a training camp, once more no fault of their own.

MOVE THEM TO ULSTER"
I have heard this so many times before about Kerry and Dublin and the provincial system. However both teams top the table for National league wins as well and the league is effectively an open draw. I'm wondering why another team hasn't topped the league list. By the way Mayo is in third place

Kerry % of wins AI 27.8% L 23.6%
Dublin % of wins AI 22.5% L 14.6%

ky_dub (Kerry) - Posts: 16 - 02/06/2021 19:42:58    2347815

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Replying To essmac:  "Sure - but this is not about which province has the better teams. The issue is about how being in a more evenly-matched province is to any Ulster team's disadvantage. This is about a structure which means that Ulster teams have to be at full throttle earlier in the season; which, as any modern trainer will tell you, is far from ideal when facing teams who have the luxury of peaking later.

(It's also the reason why, in the provincial club championship in Ulster, Tyrone teams regularly under-perform, because they have to put all they have into the winning the county; and they never get a run at the provincial championship.)"
I agree with you on the county thing but tbf the club scene is different. I know that clubs in Kerry have to work very hard to try win championship and then because we have divisional teams in Kerry a club might have to win a seperate club championship to represent Kerry in munster which is also a very tough competition. Also I know Dublin clubs have to work very hard to win their county championship too before an assault on the provincial. I think the club system or more or less even but intercounty I certainly agree Ulster have the toughest journey essmac.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3675 - 02/06/2021 20:24:39    2347819

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Replying To essmac:  "Sure - but this is not about which province has the better teams. The issue is about how being in a more evenly-matched province is to any Ulster team's disadvantage. This is about a structure which means that Ulster teams have to be at full throttle earlier in the season; which, as any modern trainer will tell you, is far from ideal when facing teams who have the luxury of peaking later.

(It's also the reason why, in the provincial club championship in Ulster, Tyrone teams regularly under-perform, because they have to put all they have into the winning the county; and they never get a run at the provincial championship.)"
The flip side argument of course also stands. The tougher matches a team has early on can harden them for what comes later. Swings and roundabouts. The stats on all Ireland's generally don't lie. Historically in most years the best team wins the all ireland. Anything else to argue against this is a convenient deflection.

kiloughter (Galway) - Posts: 1946 - 02/06/2021 21:20:07    2347835

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Replying To ky_dub:  "I have heard this so many times before about Kerry and Dublin and the provincial system. However both teams top the table for National league wins as well and the league is effectively an open draw. I'm wondering why another team hasn't topped the league list. By the way Mayo is in third place

Kerry % of wins AI 27.8% L 23.6%
Dublin % of wins AI 22.5% L 14.6%"
Because Ulster and Connacht teams need to prepare for championship and peak for that. Dublin and Kerry can give full focus to the league every year as they don't have a 50/50 game to prepare for in the first round(often the case)

Your point on league results helps back up my initial point. Some teams can focus on league, others can't.

TheRock2121 (Donegal) - Posts: 1142 - 03/06/2021 00:07:49    2347871

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Don't see why Donegal wouldn't go full strength. 2 weeks is more than enough recovery time. Donegal have things to work out especially defensively before a knockout Ulster game. It would be a great test for both teams. Donegal might only be looking for trouble if they play a much weakened side.

Kerry15 (Kerry) - Posts: 958 - 03/06/2021 18:07:19    2348051

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Replying To Kerry15:  "Don't see why Donegal wouldn't go full strength. 2 weeks is more than enough recovery time. Donegal have things to work out especially defensively before a knockout Ulster game. It would be a great test for both teams. Donegal might only be looking for trouble if they play a much weakened side."
Can't see the point risking fellas getting injured in a game that means nothing for us.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2747 - 03/06/2021 19:29:14    2348063

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "Can't see the point risking fellas getting injured in a game that means nothing for us."
It's one game, I'd be of the opinion you can't always be looking over your shoulder for injuries. It'll be interesting to see how they play it.

Kerry15 (Kerry) - Posts: 958 - 03/06/2021 20:01:10    2348070

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Replying To Kerry15:  "It's one game, I'd be of the opinion you can't always be looking over your shoulder for injuries. It'll be interesting to see how they play it."
I agree, you can't be looking over your shoulder for injuries. A lot of our recent injuries have been training session related as opposed to match related. You want to be playing Dublin in a big match with your best players. Excluding any player with a niggle play best team possible.

Ulsterchamps_32 (Donegal) - Posts: 692 - 03/06/2021 20:53:39    2348083

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Replying To Kerry15:  "It's one game, I'd be of the opinion you can't always be looking over your shoulder for injuries. It'll be interesting to see how they play it."
Exactly, sure players could just as easily get injured in a training match.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 03/06/2021 21:01:37    2348087

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Replying To TheRock2121:  "Not starting another argument here but it's a shame this great Dublin team don't get tested, no fault of their own. No disrespect to Cavan or an aging Mayo but last year most teams would have fancied their chances of winning An All Ireland if that was the last 2 teams to beat.

This year they play Mayo in the semi final, who by their fans own accounts, aren't the same force as they were. Dublin could win by 10 plus and that's them in another All Ireland final.

Nothing new in this post but the All Ireland series is a complete joke. Needs restructuring. Dublin aren't even thinking about Leinster and all eyes on Donegal. While we have to worry about a Down team who destroyed the reigning Ulster champions in the first half of their semi final last year. If we get over that if have the form team in Ulster, Derry under the ex Donegal manager Rory Gallagher. If we win that we have Tyrone no doubt in a neutral venue. Win that and we play another division one team in Armagh or Monaghan.

While Dublin play, with all due respect, Wicklow, Carlow and the winner of Meath/Kildare.

An honest question, how many All Irelands would Dublin have if they were in Ulster before the All Ireland knockout series!?

Again, this is not a dig at this great Dublin team, the greatest we will ever see, it's just frustrating that the draw each year gives them, and Kerry, huge advantages over the rest, especially Ulster teams.

If a team wins Ulster, they celebrate after an epic run through the province, Dublin use Leinster as a training camp, once more no fault of their own.

MOVE THEM TO ULSTER"
Headlines this year and last were that we were back to knockout All Ireland. Not on your Nelly. 1 team in Leinster, 1 team in Munster, 3 in Connaught and really it's now up to 6 that could possibly win Ulster. Why not take the leagues more seriously and them after a rest have a open draw All Ireland. All neutral venues until semis. That way you could cut down on the usual cryers who complain about the Dubs.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2012 - 03/06/2021 21:30:55    2348101

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Exactly, sure players could just as easily get injured in a training match."
Kerry don't have to worry much anyway, first real big game for ye will be the All Ireland semi final, I think Bonner would be mad to risk any of the key players we need for the Down game, and there's lots of lads that need game time, perfect opportunity to give them a game against the All Ireland champs, we'll know soon enough anyway,
I see no reason these games couldn't have been played this weekend.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2747 - 03/06/2021 22:07:27    2348112

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "Kerry don't have to worry much anyway, first real big game for ye will be the All Ireland semi final, I think Bonner would be mad to risk any of the key players we need for the Down game, and there's lots of lads that need game time, perfect opportunity to give them a game against the All Ireland champs, we'll know soon enough anyway,
I see no reason these games couldn't have been played this weekend."
I agree with you that the games should have been played this weekend, the players want games and they'll probably have challenge matches on Saturday.

I think we will worry about Clare as they're in the division 2 league semifinal v Mayo so I'd say we'll need to be a little worried, you seem to be worried about Down and they're in div2 religation play off.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 03/06/2021 22:19:59    2348117

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Replying To Kerry15:  "It's one game, I'd be of the opinion you can't always be looking over your shoulder for injuries. It'll be interesting to see how they play it."
I love how the Kerry fans are saying they can't see why Donegal won't give it their all. Donegal is not in Munster or Leinster where there is no competition so I understand why Kerry folk are a bit dumbfounded on the approach that Donegal may field a weakened side.

Donegal have to stay as fresh as possible if they are to beat the likes of Kerry or Dublin in an All Ireland series. Donegal are a bit like Kerry that if we lose Murphy we are likely in trouble. Kerry likewise with Clifford.

MurphBalls (Donegal) - Posts: 178 - 04/06/2021 09:09:11    2348138

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "I agree with you that the games should have been played this weekend, the players want games and they'll probably have challenge matches on Saturday.

I think we will worry about Clare as they're in the division 2 league semifinal v Mayo so I'd say we'll need to be a little worried, you seem to be worried about Down and they're in div2 religation play off."
Oh I'd say you're fierce worried alright Tommy. Sure a lad could pick up an injury in the warm down like.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 04/06/2021 09:27:17    2348140

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Replying To MurphBalls:  "I love how the Kerry fans are saying they can't see why Donegal won't give it their all. Donegal is not in Munster or Leinster where there is no competition so I understand why Kerry folk are a bit dumbfounded on the approach that Donegal may field a weakened side.

Donegal have to stay as fresh as possible if they are to beat the likes of Kerry or Dublin in an All Ireland series. Donegal are a bit like Kerry that if we lose Murphy we are likely in trouble. Kerry likewise with Clifford."
Murph every player on every team is going hell for leather as they're to get on the championship 15, I saw yer game where ye bate Tyrone and Michael Murphy was paying really hard considering he's a cert to start for Donegal in every game barring injury.

Do you think fellas would be holding back in a A v B game or a challenge match? Not a hope and do you think if Bonnar or Keane saw fellas holding back in those games that they'd pick em in their championship 15?

I know Bonnar didn't bring a lot of his first teamers to Tralee last October which was understandable since ye were playing Tyrone the following week but you can't say the lads that did play against Kerry held anything back.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 04/06/2021 10:23:38    2348153

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Murph every player on every team is going hell for leather as they're to get on the championship 15, I saw yer game where ye bate Tyrone and Michael Murphy was paying really hard considering he's a cert to start for Donegal in every game barring injury.

Do you think fellas would be holding back in a A v B game or a challenge match? Not a hope and do you think if Bonnar or Keane saw fellas holding back in those games that they'd pick em in their championship 15?

I know Bonnar didn't bring a lot of his first teamers to Tralee last October which was understandable since ye were playing Tyrone the following week but you can't say the lads that did play against Kerry held anything back."
I don't expect anyone that plays are holding back hence why I think Bonner will pick a team with lads that aren't exactly regular starters. Donegal have to play Dublin in a game that doesn't matter. If Donegal win they can't play a final so what's the point. Donegal "should" beat Down and I would then expect a difficult match up with Derry, who seem to be in good form. If they beat Down and then Derry they then must play Tyrone in an Ulster semi final and if they win that they will likely have to play a hungry Monaghan or Armagh side. The three league games they played was good conditioning for every team but we are getting to the crunch time of the season and to go all out against Dublin with nothing to really play for makes no sense at all. If you are part of a modern day gaelic football setup it is much more scientific and tactical than it used to be. Teams are actually setup to peak for when it matters and that's why Ulster are at such a disadvantage because they must peak well before Dublin and Kerry.

Whoever plays for Donegal against Dublin will be going hell for leather, it's not a case of lads trotting around the field not giving a hoot. It's about smart player management. If there was no prelim for Donegal then I think the conversation would be different but the fact that Donegal must possibly play 4 tough Ulster Championship games and hope they are lucky enough to get a crack at a fresh Kerry side who will have plenty of time in between Munster Championship games to be fresh for the AI series. Therefore, I think it would be stupid for Donegal to realistically think they can start their strongest possible side and hope to get through Ulster without lads with too many miles in the legs and burn out or injuries because of overtraining.

MurphBalls (Donegal) - Posts: 178 - 04/06/2021 11:27:38    2348166

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Replying To MurphBalls:  "I don't expect anyone that plays are holding back hence why I think Bonner will pick a team with lads that aren't exactly regular starters. Donegal have to play Dublin in a game that doesn't matter. If Donegal win they can't play a final so what's the point. Donegal "should" beat Down and I would then expect a difficult match up with Derry, who seem to be in good form. If they beat Down and then Derry they then must play Tyrone in an Ulster semi final and if they win that they will likely have to play a hungry Monaghan or Armagh side. The three league games they played was good conditioning for every team but we are getting to the crunch time of the season and to go all out against Dublin with nothing to really play for makes no sense at all. If you are part of a modern day gaelic football setup it is much more scientific and tactical than it used to be. Teams are actually setup to peak for when it matters and that's why Ulster are at such a disadvantage because they must peak well before Dublin and Kerry.

Whoever plays for Donegal against Dublin will be going hell for leather, it's not a case of lads trotting around the field not giving a hoot. It's about smart player management. If there was no prelim for Donegal then I think the conversation would be different but the fact that Donegal must possibly play 4 tough Ulster Championship games and hope they are lucky enough to get a crack at a fresh Kerry side who will have plenty of time in between Munster Championship games to be fresh for the AI series. Therefore, I think it would be stupid for Donegal to realistically think they can start their strongest possible side and hope to get through Ulster without lads with too many miles in the legs and burn out or injuries because of overtraining."
If Donegal win Ulster they will have played 4 games, if Kerry win Munster they will have played 3. They start off against the Munster champions, then probably a game against a Clare side who could be promoted to Div 1 by then, and a final against a Cork side who knocked them out last year. Yes being in the preliminary round means Donegal have 1 extra game, but there seems to be a real feeling of self-pity in Ulster football now that is doing the province no good. When Ulster teams are beaten in Croke Park it's because they are not good enough, not due to any schedule.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 04/06/2021 12:31:52    2348189

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Replying To Soma:  "If Donegal win Ulster they will have played 4 games, if Kerry win Munster they will have played 3. They start off against the Munster champions, then probably a game against a Clare side who could be promoted to Div 1 by then, and a final against a Cork side who knocked them out last year. Yes being in the preliminary round means Donegal have 1 extra game, but there seems to be a real feeling of self-pity in Ulster football now that is doing the province no good. When Ulster teams are beaten in Croke Park it's because they are not good enough, not due to any schedule."
You are missing the point here. In fact you are so far off the point. We're not talking about Ulster teams being good enough in Croke Park or not. The fact of the matter is whether Donegal will field a strong team against Dublin or not. Let's face it, I would much rather play Clare, Tipp, or Cork than play Derry (Who are one of the weaker teams in Ulster). There are 4 Ulster teams in Division 1. That alone shows the competitiveness of the province. It's not about pity or being good enough. It's about the competitiveness of the province compared to a Leinster or Munster championship. Therefore, the schedule impacts Ulster teams by the time they get to Croke Park. You can keep telling yourself there is a level playing field but you're only kidding yourself.

MurphBalls (Donegal) - Posts: 178 - 04/06/2021 13:12:03    2348202

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Replying To Soma:  "If Donegal win Ulster they will have played 4 games, if Kerry win Munster they will have played 3. They start off against the Munster champions, then probably a game against a Clare side who could be promoted to Div 1 by then, and a final against a Cork side who knocked them out last year. Yes being in the preliminary round means Donegal have 1 extra game, but there seems to be a real feeling of self-pity in Ulster football now that is doing the province no good. When Ulster teams are beaten in Croke Park it's because they are not good enough, not due to any schedule."
I'd struggle to believe that any of Tipp, Clare, or Cork would be amongst the top 6 teams in Ulster...

SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 377 - 04/06/2021 13:53:58    2348210

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