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Your full forward getting surrounded by defenders is called defending. That's what's wrong, simple catch gets rewarded with simple free instead of letting defender do his job and keep forward out or try to win ball back. Then you have treads about the loss of the art of defending. Forward mark a no no, palm ball to net a no no. If you slowed every palmed goal down you'd find out most of them are throw balls, players should have to use the fist.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1997 - 25/05/2021 00:36:03 2345249 Link 3 |
I'm not sure thats right. Yes for the handful of times it happens in each game it leads to a stoppage. But from the games iv watched there has been lots more man marking than there was 5 years ago when teams used to just swarm back and crowd the pitch inside their own 45. A good man marker is far more important now to make sure the forward can't win clean possession from a 20m kick inside. Instead of just focusing on the mark when it happens, what the threat of the mark is forcing teams to do is also worth looking at. It looks to me like the game is opening up again and the more talented players are getting a chance to show what they can do.
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 25/05/2021 09:49:25 2345276 Link 0 |
It's a version of defending, but I'm not sure it's the type of defending most people want to see. Both football and hurling were traditionally 14 individual battles between outfield players, every man trying to win his battle against his direct opponent. Having all 15 players back inside your own 45, and both wing forwards standing beside your own full back to mind him is defending alright, but its neither enjoyable to watch or play for most people. And there is very little art to defending when all 15 players are inside their own 45, it is a system relying on sheer weight of numbers. We have seen the game open up a little bit now and some lads who were considered the games best defenders are being shown up when they are being asked to man mark. 2 rounds into the league and already Kerry, Donegal and Galway have each conceded 4 goals in a game. Teams used to be able go through a league campaign without ever conceding a goal.
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 25/05/2021 10:04:22 2345283 Link 0 |
I don't like the advanced mark in principal. I don't like the idea of giving a free kick for the performance of the most basic skill of the game. You're right in that maybe we only see 2/3 a game for now but there are 13/14 year old's training away with the advanced mark right now that will have being using the rule for 10 years by the time they hit senior, there is a danger that it'll become the principal means of scoring in the game in decade or so. MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13692 - 25/05/2021 11:23:54 2345309 Link 3 |
I get what you're saying about the blanket. It certainly isn't without a case for that as well. But man marking is a lot more than just preventing the first catch from a forward. It's only the first dimension really. An under 10 can catch a ball in their chest from 20 metres away, its a pretty basic skill so I think rewarding it with a very scorable free is a harsh enough punishment for not getting to the ball first. It's a tactic that will no doubt be on the increase as time goes on as well and will reward the more physical players instead of the more skilful ones. If your faster or stronger you will likely get to the ball first. It takes away from a forwards job of beating his man or a defenders job of making a clean tackle or tracking the run. Obviously pros and cons to both arguments but I don't like the concept of the mark in a free flowing game.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 25/05/2021 12:11:50 2345320 Link 0 |
And I hope by now you have figured out I'm completely and utterly anti blanket defense systems, so you're barking up the wrong tree here. The problem with the way Dublin play is that while it is extremely successful in getting results, it is actually very very boring to watch, Dubs don't and shouldn't care about that as long as they keep winning. While you're right in a way about lumping in long balls, it also shows how robotic Dublin are, any chance of maybe having the confidence or ability of winning a long ball ? While there is a legitimate excuse for Dublin playing the boring Gaelic version of keepy-uppy, I find Dublin play the percentages way too much, terrified to back themselves from what any good forward worth his salt, should be able to find the black spot, we saw that again against Kerry, we see it all the time from Dublin, that's the part which is boring. So just to be clear, I'm completely and utterly anti blanket and I look at Dublin as a great challenge, because I firmly believe that one day soon the robotic system will be smashed by real footballers who'll back themselves, who don't need millions of euros, home advantage or robotic systems and processes to win, just pure footballing skill, and of course a manager who's got the right philosophy. By even mentioning Newton's Law, it shows how much the process has been ingrained in your mind. But look, it's all a matter of opinion. AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 25/05/2021 12:56:36 2345344 Link 1 |
That might happen, but I doubt it. The 13 year old forwards playing with the mark now will also be man marked by 13 year old defenders who will be learning to be tight on their man and get out first to the ball, a skill that virtually disappeared over the last 20 years. Back then Meath had Fay and O'Reilly, Laois had Higgins, Kildare had Lacey, Offaly had Daly - all brilliant footballers who could properly man Mark and that was just from a few Leinster counties. How many of that type are in the game today? If its the main way of scoring in 10 years it can be got rid of again, but it seems to me the most skillful footballers in the country are now having a bigger influence on games and that can only be good for the game.
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 25/05/2021 13:37:19 2345362 Link 0 |
And I hope by now you have figured out I'm completely and utterly anti blanket defense systems, so you're barking up the wrong tree here. The problem with the way Dublin play is that while it is extremely successful in getting results, it is actually very very boring to watch, Dubs don't and shouldn't care about that as long as they keep winning. While you're right in a way about lumping in long balls, it also shows how robotic Dublin are, any chance of maybe having the confidence or ability of winning a long ball ? While there is a legitimate excuse for Dublin playing the boring Gaelic version of keepy-uppy, I find Dublin play the percentages way too much, terrified to back themselves from what any good forward worth his salt, should be able to find the black spot, we saw that again against Kerry, we see it all the time from Dublin, that's the part which is boring. So just to be clear, I'm completely and utterly anti blanket and I look at Dublin as a great challenge, because I firmly believe that one day soon the robotic system will be smashed by real footballers who'll back themselves, who don't need millions of euros, home advantage or robotic systems and processes to win, just pure footballing skill, and of course a manager who's got the right philosophy. By even mentioning Newton's Law, it shows how much the process has been ingrained in your mind. But look, it's all a matter of opinion."]I see where you're coming from and what you're hoping for but if you are waiting for a team no matter how skillful to back themselves to beat a well organised skillful team that use a blanket defence, by going for the jugular and taking on percentage shots, it ain't gonna happen because they will lose. OK teams of lesser ability using the blanket can be defeated this way, but the top teams when they play with 13 or 14 behind the ball would wreak havoc on the break. Surely if each team had to leave a minimum of 3 players in the opposing half it would 1. Leave more space for the attacking team and 2. To a great extent make it more difficult for the attacking team to play the ball back into their own half. sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 661 - 25/05/2021 13:39:07 2345363 Link 0 |
I'm not very enthusiastic about it either and it can look ugly, but you have to assess what it's impact is beyond the 2 or 3 times it happens each game. 90% of the ball forwards get onto won't be through a mark, so the man marking job still has to be done. Often clever movement is far more important than size when trying to win a mark. If this rule opens up the pitch a little then it will benefit the skillful players just as much as the bigger man, there will be a place on the field for both again.
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 25/05/2021 13:47:59 2345368 Link 0 |
And I hope by now you have figured out I'm completely and utterly anti blanket defense systems, so you're barking up the wrong tree here. The problem with the way Dublin play is that while it is extremely successful in getting results, it is actually very very boring to watch, Dubs don't and shouldn't care about that as long as they keep winning. While you're right in a way about lumping in long balls, it also shows how robotic Dublin are, any chance of maybe having the confidence or ability of winning a long ball ? While there is a legitimate excuse for Dublin playing the boring Gaelic version of keepy-uppy, I find Dublin play the percentages way too much, terrified to back themselves from what any good forward worth his salt, should be able to find the black spot, we saw that again against Kerry, we see it all the time from Dublin, that's the part which is boring. So just to be clear, I'm completely and utterly anti blanket and I look at Dublin as a great challenge, because I firmly believe that one day soon the robotic system will be smashed by real footballers who'll back themselves, who don't need millions of euros, home advantage or robotic systems and processes to win, just pure footballing skill, and of course a manager who's got the right philosophy. By even mentioning Newton's Law, it shows how much the process has been ingrained in your mind. But look, it's all a matter of opinion."]I see where you're coming from and what you're hoping for but if you are waiting for a team no matter how skillful to back themselves to beat a well organised skillful team that use a blanket defence, by going for the jugular and taking on percentage shots, it ain't gonna happen because they will lose. OK teams of lesser ability using the blanket can be defeated this way, but the top teams when they play with 13 or 14 behind the ball would wreak havoc on the break. Surely if each team had to leave a minimum of 3 players in the opposing half it would 1. Leave more space for the attacking team and 2. To a great extent make it more difficult for the attacking team to play the ball back into their own half."]Which team would be your number one in the "well organized skillful team that use a blanket defense" category, just as a matter of interest ? AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 25/05/2021 16:26:37 2345422 Link 0 |
Whoever comes up with stuff like this is obviously the same folk who come up with advanced marks, and all the silly changes every year. There should be no rule changes allowed for 5 years after a rule change. Killing the game with all the incessant changes. Just leave it be, styles of play come and go, they phase in and out...deal with it. GAAdundalk (Louth) - Posts: 641 - 25/05/2021 16:44:26 2345428 Link 1 |
And I hope by now you have figured out I'm completely and utterly anti blanket defense systems, so you're barking up the wrong tree here. The problem with the way Dublin play is that while it is extremely successful in getting results, it is actually very very boring to watch, Dubs don't and shouldn't care about that as long as they keep winning. While you're right in a way about lumping in long balls, it also shows how robotic Dublin are, any chance of maybe having the confidence or ability of winning a long ball ? While there is a legitimate excuse for Dublin playing the boring Gaelic version of keepy-uppy, I find Dublin play the percentages way too much, terrified to back themselves from what any good forward worth his salt, should be able to find the black spot, we saw that again against Kerry, we see it all the time from Dublin, that's the part which is boring. So just to be clear, I'm completely and utterly anti blanket and I look at Dublin as a great challenge, because I firmly believe that one day soon the robotic system will be smashed by real footballers who'll back themselves, who don't need millions of euros, home advantage or robotic systems and processes to win, just pure footballing skill, and of course a manager who's got the right philosophy. By even mentioning Newton's Law, it shows how much the process has been ingrained in your mind. But look, it's all a matter of opinion."]I see where you're coming from and what you're hoping for but if you are waiting for a team no matter how skillful to back themselves to beat a well organised skillful team that use a blanket defence, by going for the jugular and taking on percentage shots, it ain't gonna happen because they will lose. OK teams of lesser ability using the blanket can be defeated this way, but the top teams when they play with 13 or 14 behind the ball would wreak havoc on the break. Surely if each team had to leave a minimum of 3 players in the opposing half it would 1. Leave more space for the attacking team and 2. To a great extent make it more difficult for the attacking team to play the ball back into their own half."]Which team would be your number one in the "well organized skillful team that use a blanket defense" category, just as a matter of interest ?"]Definitely the Donegal team of a few years ago and the Tyrone team up to recently. Any team that played an orthodox attacking style against these teams without paying huge respect to retention of possession were going to lose. Look all teams are going to play keep ball in the last few minutes if they have a lead but inevitably there will also be long boring episodes of it during the game if the defending team retreat en masse into their own half. If all teams the Dubs, Kerry etc had to leave a number of players, say 3 forward, it would give the attacking team a better chance of getting a scoring chance and also it would be more difficult to play back into their own half. sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 661 - 25/05/2021 17:59:06 2345449 Link 0 |
Thats an interesting take. I guess we'll see with time how well these rules help to evolve the game but the longer they're in place the more they are open to opportunist managers and players trying to exploit the rule as best they can. Whether that makes the game any worse than other eras or not remains to be seen I suppose.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 25/05/2021 20:07:18 2345483 Link 0 |
Is it because of the advance mark that the games more open now or is it because the tactic of having 10+ back doesn't work when a team is chasing. If anything I'd have thought teams would be more inclined to defend in numbers to counter the advance mark. You'd want to combine man markers and also have sweepers to plug the spaces in front. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4172 - 26/05/2021 06:07:11 2345553 Link 5 |
Its all a balancing act. Time brings change to how teams setup under the rules in place. Id expect the advanced mark to be part of a lot of training drills over the coming years and we should see an increase in the amount of marks per game. Which is something I'd be sceptical about. But defensive teams have to have a plan B in mind for when they are trailing in matches otherwise its a forgone conclusion. The likes of Dublin are a team who can deal with most plans thrown at them in their sleep these days. It would be great to see another tactician like McGuinness who could give them problems they haven't dealt with before. But obviously its a lot easier said than done. I'm not convinced on Kerry tactics from what ive seen. Great individuals, just nothing special about the setup.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 26/05/2021 11:56:03 2345619 Link 0 |
If you bring all players back inside the 45, as teams were doing, it means opposition players have the chance to kick 20m passes from 50m out under no pressure to teammates that then gives them a free shot at goal. Sweepers cant prevent that, good footballers make that pass 9 times out of 10. Therefore defenders have to come out more to put pressure on the passer kicking in, and the field opens up a lot more. It remains to be seen how it all plays out, but just highlighting 1 or 2 instances of advanced marks in a game and saying it has to be got rid of shows a lack of appreciation of how it could be a rule well worth sticking with. Last weekend O'Callaghan, Clifford, Finnerty, Mccarthy, McBrearty and McCurry were all candidates for Man of the Match in League 1 games, all very talented forwards. I think they scored 6-28 between the 6 of them, and 2 of the points were from marks. Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 26/05/2021 15:21:38 2345694 Link 0 |
You only need a couple of players looking to put pressure on the ball. What you described I think you are over estimating even a county player's ability to play a direct ball into a clogged 45. Football was getting more open before the advance mark came in and it had a lot more to do with Dublin destroying Tyrone's ultra counter attacking strategy in the 2017 semifinals that it has to do with the advance mark. Man marking of the full forward line persisted throughout even the most zonal of defensive systems. You just can't leave a spare man close to the posts regardless of whether you get a free for collecting a pass. The games more attacking and open alright I just think it's coinciding with the advance mark rather than resulting from it. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4172 - 26/05/2021 17:38:25 2345730 Link 5 |
Man marking continued but the standard of it didn't have to be near as high with a blanket defence because defenders had so much help around them. When Aidan O'shea got his goal against Donegal in 2015 from a very rare successful long ball in, he was the only Mayo player inside the 21 alongside 8 Donegal players when the ball hit the net. A more open game should bring back the man marking specialists which would be great for the game. A good man marker who can take on his opponent on his own is as enjoyable to watch as a good forward. After years of blanket defences I'd rather leave the advanced mark there for now and enjoy the more open style than remove it and risk going back to a high energy but low skilled style.
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 26/05/2021 19:00:25 2345742 Link 0 |
Ide go one much stricter, no shot on goal after 8 passes, 20 metre free to other team...sick and tired of watching this rubbish now weekin weekout...and with my own team down the divisions and watching their games on the player for the last while its the so called stronger teams that are at this passing the ball til death lark...and more annoying still is posters coming on here saying "there is nothing wrong here move on, its up to the other team to figure it out"...sure maybe if the oppostion manager knows in his heart his team wont beat the opposition, he might phone the night before and award them the match altogether, and lie on the next morning altogether...how anyone thinks this carry on is tolerable I dont know...play he fceking game like years ago..kick it up and down the field..not this terrified of loosing posession lark...boring beyond boring now it is...
Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 26/05/2021 19:32:11 2345748 Link 2 |
Both football and hurling are suffering from not having a legitimate tackle. Pulling and dragging the result. The games are now built around holding possession. Fine but it is made easier because there is no way to combat it. I grew up playing football and you knew when you had the ball you were going to get hit. So what did you do ? You moved the ball forward quickly or else moved into open space. Now hold on to it, stay static and a ruck will help you out. It is crap to watch. Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2642 - 26/05/2021 19:45:18 2345754 Link 1 |