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2021 National Hurling League

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Have heard that claim before about what Archbishop Croke is supposed to have said in 1884. Have also heard it pointed out by a Tipperary historian that Tipperary North Riding and Tipperary South Riding weren't actually established as administrative counties until 1898. Which makes the Croke story seem a little unlikely....."
You're right, but it's a bit more complex. The following is from Wikipedia:

The county was divided once again in 1838.The county town of Clonmel, where the grand jury held its twice-yearly assizes, is at the southern limit of the county, and roads leading north were poor, making the journey inconvenient for jurors resident there. A petition to move the county town to a more central location was opposed by the MP for Clonmel, so instead the county was split into two "ridings"; the grand jury of the South Riding continued to meet in Clonmel, while that of the North Riding met in Nenagh. When the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898 established county councils to replace the grand jury for civil functions, the ridings became separate "administrative counties" with separate county councils. Their names were changed from "Tipperary North/South Riding" to "North/South Tipperary" by the Local Government Act 2001

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1456 - 25/05/2021 12:00:37    2345315

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Replying To MicktheMiller:  "I don't think supporters would wear it either. It's a bit patronising to propose that."
Its not unprecedented. It worked a treat for Dublin colleges when it was introduced in the 90s. The knock on effect is Dublin are at least competitive now at underage and senior. It's also a feature of a lot of county level competitions countrywide. I wouldn't get too prissy and indignant about giving very good hurlers the opportunity to compete and win against the top counties. The inspiration to pick up a hurl for young lads and lassies in the midlands is not something I'd regard as being patronising. As for the supporters, we're not allowed go anyway so now would have been the ideal time to at least try

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1036 - 25/05/2021 12:18:02    2345322

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "You're right, but it's a bit more complex. The following is from Wikipedia:

The county was divided once again in 1838.The county town of Clonmel, where the grand jury held its twice-yearly assizes, is at the southern limit of the county, and roads leading north were poor, making the journey inconvenient for jurors resident there. A petition to move the county town to a more central location was opposed by the MP for Clonmel, so instead the county was split into two "ridings"; the grand jury of the South Riding continued to meet in Clonmel, while that of the North Riding met in Nenagh. When the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898 established county councils to replace the grand jury for civil functions, the ridings became separate "administrative counties" with separate county councils. Their names were changed from "Tipperary North/South Riding" to "North/South Tipperary" by the Local Government Act 2001"
Well no less an authority than Raymond Smyth , himself a Thurles man, has enunciated the story of Dr Crokes Plea in one of his earlier books.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 3245 - 25/05/2021 12:23:59    2345324

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Replying To Viking66:  "There wasnt any historical rivalry there. They were all Tipp men. The North and South Riding was an artificial division imposed by the Brits for administrative purposes. Yorkshire cricket, Sussex cricket etc in England arent split into areas like the counties are. Offaly and Laois and Westmeath are all sporting rivals. Offaly have all Irelands in both hurling and football. It's a short list of counties that can say that. 8 I think."
Every county bounds were set by the Brits.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 3245 - 25/05/2021 12:25:08    2345325

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Replying To Viking66:  "Would you support combining your football team with Roscommons to compete with Dublin?"
Just Dublin? No, but I imagine you're being disingenuous. I'd support the promotion of hurling in any part of the country.

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1036 - 25/05/2021 12:25:21    2345326

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Replying To Maroonatic:  "Its not unprecedented. It worked a treat for Dublin colleges when it was introduced in the 90s. The knock on effect is Dublin are at least competitive now at underage and senior. It's also a feature of a lot of county level competitions countrywide. I wouldn't get too prissy and indignant about giving very good hurlers the opportunity to compete and win against the top counties. The inspiration to pick up a hurl for young lads and lassies in the midlands is not something I'd regard as being patronising. As for the supporters, we're not allowed go anyway so now would have been the ideal time to at least try"
People still support their own county teams, they are not interested in following some hybrid amalgamation, in the supposed interests of equality. Why do so called elite counties think they have the right to dictate to the smaller counties how to run their sporting affairs?

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 382 - 25/05/2021 12:30:45    2345330

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Replying To Viking66:  "There wasnt any historical rivalry there. They were all Tipp men. The North and South Riding was an artificial division imposed by the Brits for administrative purposes. Yorkshire cricket, Sussex cricket etc in England arent split into areas like the counties are. Offaly and Laois and Westmeath are all sporting rivals. Offaly have all Irelands in both hurling and football. It's a short list of counties that can say that. 8 I think."
Well Viking, bitter rivals at club level have for decades united when resources were small amd then gone their ways when things got better. In the mid sixties, as an example, three local parishes joined together at senior level to form a team called St Itas and though they did achieve ultimate success they did reasonably well at under age and Senior Level. Within fifteen Killeedy one of the Parishes has contested four county Finals and won one, while our Parish reached a Senior Final in '79. None of the two parishes had ever got next or near Senior Semi or County Final before and more people locally reckoned the mid sixties amalgamation played a big part in these successes. The same is replicated in different areas throughout the country. If it can work at club level, why not give it a chance at county level,.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 3245 - 25/05/2021 12:33:41    2345333

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Every county bounds were set by the Brits."
Offaly have 7 Senior All Ireland's, 4 in hurling, 3 in football. We also have 3 minor hurling All Ireland's, and 1 u21 football AI. Not bad for a small county, even though we haven't made much impression in a long time. Things are looking up at the moment, but there is a long way to go.

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 382 - 25/05/2021 12:36:36    2345336

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Hold on Mick. The very first day the GAA was founded, in that Thurles meeting, Archbishop Croke proposed that Tipperary North and South Riding, then regarded as two separate counties, should allowed compete as one. The precedent for amalgamations is there."
A poster has just explained the reason why Tipperary was divided into 2 separate administrative areas, not separate counties. It is all one region now, since the Phil Hogan driven reform of Local Government.

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 382 - 25/05/2021 12:41:32    2345338

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Replying To MicktheMiller:  "Offaly have 7 Senior All Ireland's, 4 in hurling, 3 in football. We also have 3 minor hurling All Ireland's, and 1 u21 football AI. Not bad for a small county, even though we haven't made much impression in a long time. Things are looking up at the moment, but there is a long way to go."
Plus the minor football All-Ireland from 1964, with a team that produced several future senior stars.

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 309 - 25/05/2021 12:47:14    2345342

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Replying To MicktheMiller:  "People still support their own county teams, they are not interested in following some hybrid amalgamation, in the supposed interests of equality. Why do so called elite counties think they have the right to dictate to the smaller counties how to run their sporting affairs?"
...and their counties could also take part I'm ure. In answer to your question, I've no idea why 'so called elite counties' think they have a right to dictate to smaller counties. Where is this happening? I've not seen evidence of it. Is it anecdotal evidence or are you basing it all on what lil ol' me posted on an internet forum?

To paraphrase Joe Brolly talking about combined teams ,albeit that other code...better to have a good Leitrim player spending his summer in Croke Park rather than tending bar in New York

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1036 - 25/05/2021 12:57:27    2345345

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Replying To midlands:  "Plus the minor football All-Ireland from 1964, with a team that produced several future senior stars."
Thanks, forgot about that team. They were the basis of the winning Offaly teams in 1971/1972. How are things in the Lake County?

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 382 - 25/05/2021 13:02:41    2345348

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Replying To Maroonatic:  "...and their counties could also take part I'm ure. In answer to your question, I've no idea why 'so called elite counties' think they have a right to dictate to smaller counties. Where is this happening? I've not seen evidence of it. Is it anecdotal evidence or are you basing it all on what lil ol' me posted on an internet forum?

To paraphrase Joe Brolly talking about combined teams ,albeit that other code...better to have a good Leitrim player spending his summer in Croke Park rather than tending bar in New York"
Maybe a few Galway players tend bar in New York as well. I still think amalgamations won't work, would you like to see Galway merge with Roscommon?, as asked by an earlier poster.

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 382 - 25/05/2021 13:13:46    2345352

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Every county bounds were set by the Brits."
For sure Oldtourman. Tipperary was originally 1 county tho. And is again.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3086 - 25/05/2021 13:26:17    2345357

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Well Viking, bitter rivals at club level have for decades united when resources were small amd then gone their ways when things got better. In the mid sixties, as an example, three local parishes joined together at senior level to form a team called St Itas and though they did achieve ultimate success they did reasonably well at under age and Senior Level. Within fifteen Killeedy one of the Parishes has contested four county Finals and won one, while our Parish reached a Senior Final in '79. None of the two parishes had ever got next or near Senior Semi or County Final before and more people locally reckoned the mid sixties amalgamation played a big part in these successes. The same is replicated in different areas throughout the country. If it can work at club level, why not give it a chance at county level,."
I see where you are coming from and I'm not saying you are wrong. All I'm saying is that gaels in the 3 counries are very proud of their counties and that winning Liam is not the be all and end all for them. I think more Offaly or Laois folk would prefer to be beating eachother than travelling together to Croke Park to see a Midlands United hurling team playing Limerick in an all Ireland hurling final. And I for 1 wouldn't rule out Offaly or Laois being more competitive at senior level given the right investment at schools and underage level in coaching and promotion of hurling. That's where it has to start. And the GAA as an organisation as a whole, given their stated aim of promoting Irish games, should be funding this. It's more important for the future of the sport of hurling as a whole than centres of excellence in counties that are already excellent or new corporate boxes in Pairc ui Chaoimh.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3086 - 25/05/2021 13:35:00    2345359

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Well Viking, bitter rivals at club level have for decades united when resources were small amd then gone their ways when things got better. In the mid sixties, as an example, three local parishes joined together at senior level to form a team called St Itas and though they did achieve ultimate success they did reasonably well at under age and Senior Level. Within fifteen Killeedy one of the Parishes has contested four county Finals and won one, while our Parish reached a Senior Final in '79. None of the two parishes had ever got next or near Senior Semi or County Final before and more people locally reckoned the mid sixties amalgamation played a big part in these successes. The same is replicated in different areas throughout the country. If it can work at club level, why not give it a chance at county level,."
I see where you are coming from and I'm not saying you are wrong. All I'm saying is that gaels in the 3 counries are very proud of their counties and that winning Liam is not the be all and end all for them. I think more Offaly or Laois folk would prefer to be beating eachother than travelling together to Croke Park to see a Midlands United hurling team playing Limerick in an all Ireland hurling final. And I for 1 wouldn't rule out Offaly or Laois being more competitive at senior level given the right investment at schools and underage level in coaching and promotion of hurling. That's where it has to start. And the GAA as an organisation as a whole, given their stated aim of promoting Irish games, should be funding this. It's more important for the future of the sport of hurling as a whole than centres of excellence in counties that are already excellent or new corporate boxes in Pairc ui Chaoimh.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3086 - 25/05/2021 13:36:07    2345361

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Replying To Maroonatic:  "...and their counties could also take part I'm ure. In answer to your question, I've no idea why 'so called elite counties' think they have a right to dictate to smaller counties. Where is this happening? I've not seen evidence of it. Is it anecdotal evidence or are you basing it all on what lil ol' me posted on an internet forum?

To paraphrase Joe Brolly talking about combined teams ,albeit that other code...better to have a good Leitrim player spending his summer in Croke Park rather than tending bar in New York"
Joe Brolly was part of a Derry team that ended a century long wait for Sam. If in the 70s Derry had been amalgamated with Donegal and Tyrone on the grounds they weren't in with a realistic chance of winning Sam, then the 90s and 00s would have been much less dramatic and exciting for everyone.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3086 - 25/05/2021 13:39:15    2345364

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Replying To MicktheMiller:  "Maybe a few Galway players tend bar in New York as well. I still think amalgamations won't work, would you like to see Galway merge with Roscommon?, as asked by an earlier poster."
Rumour has it Tony Keady might have done one time. And, as already answered no I wouldn't

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1036 - 25/05/2021 13:40:38    2345366

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Replying To Maroonatic:  "Rumour has it Tony Keady might have done one time. And, as already answered no I wouldn't"
Galway went 57 years from 1923 to 1980 waiting to win Liam again. If someone had said during the 40s or 60s that ye should amalgamate with Clare who also were going thru a lengthy drought at the time do you think this would have had any support in either county?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3086 - 25/05/2021 13:46:38    2345367

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Replying To Viking66:  "Galway went 57 years from 1923 to 1980 waiting to win Liam again. If someone had said during the 40s or 60s that ye should amalgamate with Clare who also were going thru a lengthy drought at the time do you think this would have had any support in either county?"
It certainly would have been worth debating at the time. Didn't Liam Griffin support the combining of clubs at Marys at underage level? There's an example of how it benefited the game in one particular region. Now look at all the happy young hurlers around Rosslare. Expand that up to intercounty level. Parochialism, again in my opinion, doesn't benefit the game as much as would combining resources. Broaden the horizons. Look beyond our own wee patch. The game of hurling should be promoted not clung to jealously by successful counties only.

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1036 - 25/05/2021 14:03:48    2345374

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