National Forum

2021 National Hurling League

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Replying To Canuck:  "I would agree if we take off our coloured lens there are not many wrong calls in the fastest field sport and football on the biggest pitch. The refs do need help though, whether that is proper use of technology or a second ref. Everyone agrees that the speed of the game keeps going up and expecting the man in the middle to be as effective in 2021 as 1921 is not realistic."
I've been thinking the last good few years a 2nd ref would be a good idea. The 2 referees could ref the same half of the field either side of halftime for fairness to both sets of backs and forwards.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3204 - 14/06/2021 20:29:00    2350941

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Division 1 has been redrawn for 2022/3. Still looks a little lopsided.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3204 - 14/06/2021 20:35:06    2350945

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Not amused one way or another. I am just commenting about the fact that whoever wins head to heads getting a higher place when you would have thought Point difference should be the deciding factor."
Points difference is deciding factor if more than 2 teams. I can see the logic though of head to head. If you beat someone it would be a bit sickening then to see them above you just because they scored more points against someone else than you did when you both finish level.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3204 - 14/06/2021 20:37:57    2350948

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Replying To Viking66:  "I've been thinking the last good few years a 2nd ref would be a good idea. The 2 referees could ref the same half of the field either side of halftime for fairness to both sets of backs and forwards."
Agree, it is just too much to ask of 1 man to do the job.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1377 - 14/06/2021 20:45:43    2350951

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "Agree, it is just too much to ask of 1 man to do the job."
Owens was excellent on Sunday. Not issuing yellow cards like valentine's day. Once you give that yellow someone can be sent off for some small or marginal thing. He took names with no fanfare and while doing so spoke to the player obviously warning him of the next step. I think the players respect this and settle down. John Maloney used do the same on the run during play and you would not know if the player was in the book if he ejected him. Then it became well the spectators needs to know. Why ? So the pundits and us can second guess the ref. Empower everyone else and depower the ref.
There were some hits with the hurley on Sunday but Owens used common sense. They were follow through or attempts to win the ball not deliberate. I also subscribe that you should be in control of your stick and and not swinging wild nailing someone. On another day two Waterford players could have been dismissed and that is not why I am singing the refs praises. If someone deserves sending off that is what should happen. I would use this performance by the Owens as a training tool.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 1642 - 14/06/2021 23:54:28    2351015

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Replying To Viking66:  "Had a couple poor wides in that 2nd half in 2018 Cockney Cat. Should've been furthur ahead than we were when ye mounted your comeback also. I was there. Never felt more strongly about any game in any sport I was ever at that we left it behind us."
I was there too. Yes, it was a game Wexford could have won, and I doubt many would have backed against them at half-time. I've read a report of the game, a few points stick out. Cody took off Colin Fennelly and Richie Hogan at half-time, replacing them with Richie Leahy and John Donnelly, who both scored a couple of points. This was Wexford's fourth game in 21 days, which might be part of the reason for their second-half display; they just ran out of steam.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1464 - 15/06/2021 10:17:19    2351061

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Using scoring differences to help decide placings is fine but has one adverse side-effect. If you have a side with, shall we say 'lesser capabilities' (trying to be politically correct and woke and all that) in the group the big boys tend to go in for the slaughter. Then it can come down to who beats the group whipping boys by the most. Maybe some sort of co-efficient or seeding can be introduced where scores against these teams is not factored in might be better. Just an idea.

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1037 - 15/06/2021 10:29:20    2351064

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Replying To Midleton:  "Cork finished second-last on the table with a score difference of 27, inferior only to Galway's 44. On the other hand, Waterford finished second on the table with a score difference of -3."
Just be glad boy that Cork didn't finish last! Scoring difference is nonsense, when with all due respects to Westmeath and Laois, you have one team boxing well above its weight level. It's like as if you had asked Barry McGuigan back in the day to fight the late great Marvelous Marvin.

Cork put 7 goals past the minnows. Let's see 'em try that against any of the big boys. They'll put manners on those erstwhile rebels.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 692 - 15/06/2021 10:43:34    2351069

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Replying To Maroonatic:  "Using scoring differences to help decide placings is fine but has one adverse side-effect. If you have a side with, shall we say 'lesser capabilities' (trying to be politically correct and woke and all that) in the group the big boys tend to go in for the slaughter. Then it can come down to who beats the group whipping boys by the most. Maybe some sort of co-efficient or seeding can be introduced where scores against these teams is not factored in might be better. Just an idea."
On the other hand, the 'big boys' often use games against the 'whipping boys' to try out new players and rest star players, basically fielding experimental and weaker teams.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1464 - 15/06/2021 10:44:22    2351071

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "On the other hand, the 'big boys' often use games against the 'whipping boys' to try out new players and rest star players, basically fielding experimental and weaker teams."
which is fine but incentivising a team to keep ramping up the scores against one of the minnows because it could play a part in qualifying for the next stage needs reviewing I think. Most managers use the league to blood new players and playing systems anyway. OK, i'm still peeved at how Carlow played a factor in Galway going out of the C'ship in 2019. We beat your lads that year but still went out

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1037 - 15/06/2021 11:00:44    2351080

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Replying To Maroonatic:  "which is fine but incentivising a team to keep ramping up the scores against one of the minnows because it could play a part in qualifying for the next stage needs reviewing I think. Most managers use the league to blood new players and playing systems anyway. OK, i'm still peeved at how Carlow played a factor in Galway going out of the C'ship in 2019. We beat your lads that year but still went out"
Carlow were a small factor. The main factor was Galway's overall performance in the 2019 Leinster group. Losing to Dublin, drawing with Wexford and beating Kilkenny by 1 point. Galway ended up with a +5 points difference, compared to the next best team Dublin with +11.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1464 - 15/06/2021 11:35:25    2351090

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "Carlow were a small factor. The main factor was Galway's overall performance in the 2019 Leinster group. Losing to Dublin, drawing with Wexford and beating Kilkenny by 1 point. Galway ended up with a +5 points difference, compared to the next best team Dublin with +11."
Have to disagree, Carlow were THE factor in ultimately deciding the placings. Ditto, Westmeath to a less significant degree in the league this time around. If points, then head to heads cant separate team placings only scores against the other non-minnows (for want of a better term) should be used. Aside from being tough on the minnow it gives the side that plays them first a disadvantage in not knowing what target to aim for. UEFA and FIFA brought something similar into their qualifying tournaments. Worth a review

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1037 - 15/06/2021 12:28:38    2351113

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Replying To Canuck:  "Owens was excellent on Sunday. Not issuing yellow cards like valentine's day. Once you give that yellow someone can be sent off for some small or marginal thing. He took names with no fanfare and while doing so spoke to the player obviously warning him of the next step. I think the players respect this and settle down. John Maloney used do the same on the run during play and you would not know if the player was in the book if he ejected him. Then it became well the spectators needs to know. Why ? So the pundits and us can second guess the ref. Empower everyone else and depower the ref.
There were some hits with the hurley on Sunday but Owens used common sense. They were follow through or attempts to win the ball not deliberate. I also subscribe that you should be in control of your stick and and not swinging wild nailing someone. On another day two Waterford players could have been dismissed and that is not why I am singing the refs praises. If someone deserves sending off that is what should happen. I would use this performance by the Owens as a training tool."
Didn't see the match but James Owens is a fine referee for me. He uses common sense at club level too. I got away with a 100% accidental hit on a player in a club match last year. He warned me but thankfully didn't book me. I had a "clumsy" tackle about 10 minutes later which he booked me.
If he had thrown me the yellow card willy nilly, I would have walked.

Look, no referee is perfect, it is a thankless job and we are lucky to have people willing to do it. If only ex players would put down the phone/Twitter and pick up a whistle.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1377 - 15/06/2021 12:31:44    2351114

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Division 1 next year:
Division 1A
Galway
Limerick
Cork
Wexford
Clare
Offaly

Division 1B
Waterford
Tipperary
Kilkenny
Antrim
Dublin
Laois/Westmeath

Not bad groups for next year, can't wait to play those teams. A bit of a shake-up was well needed and a tough group for Wexford which is what we need.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1377 - 15/06/2021 12:34:50    2351117

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Replying To Maroonatic:  "Have to disagree, Carlow were THE factor in ultimately deciding the placings. Ditto, Westmeath to a less significant degree in the league this time around. If points, then head to heads cant separate team placings only scores against the other non-minnows (for want of a better term) should be used. Aside from being tough on the minnow it gives the side that plays them first a disadvantage in not knowing what target to aim for. UEFA and FIFA brought something similar into their qualifying tournaments. Worth a review"
"Have to disagree, Carlow were THE factor in ultimately deciding the placings."

If you discount Carlow, remove the scores against them. The places would have been exactly the same, Galway would have finished bottom of the group. I rest my case.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1464 - 15/06/2021 12:48:46    2351123

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Replying To Maroonatic:  "Using scoring differences to help decide placings is fine but has one adverse side-effect. If you have a side with, shall we say 'lesser capabilities' (trying to be politically correct and woke and all that) in the group the big boys tend to go in for the slaughter. Then it can come down to who beats the group whipping boys by the most. Maybe some sort of co-efficient or seeding can be introduced where scores against these teams is not factored in might be better. Just an idea."
Have suggested before in each group :
1 x All Ireland Finalist
1 x All Ireland Semi Finalist
1 x Quarter Finalist
3 x the rest.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1377 - 15/06/2021 14:13:46    2351147

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "I was there too. Yes, it was a game Wexford could have won, and I doubt many would have backed against them at half-time. I've read a report of the game, a few points stick out. Cody took off Colin Fennelly and Richie Hogan at half-time, replacing them with Richie Leahy and John Donnelly, who both scored a couple of points. This was Wexford's fourth game in 21 days, which might be part of the reason for their second-half display; they just ran out of steam."
Fair appraisal Cockney Cat. Leahy made a difference with his energy too.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3204 - 15/06/2021 14:30:54    2351153

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "Division 1 next year:
Division 1A
Galway
Limerick
Cork
Wexford
Clare
Offaly

Division 1B
Waterford
Tipperary
Kilkenny
Antrim
Dublin
Laois/Westmeath

Not bad groups for next year, can't wait to play those teams. A bit of a shake-up was well needed and a tough group for Wexford which is what we need."
Its 4 out of the 6 last teams in the old div 1a. Tough ok but exactly what was needed.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3204 - 15/06/2021 14:32:52    2351155

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Replying To Maroonatic:  "which is fine but incentivising a team to keep ramping up the scores against one of the minnows because it could play a part in qualifying for the next stage needs reviewing I think. Most managers use the league to blood new players and playing systems anyway. OK, i'm still peeved at how Carlow played a factor in Galway going out of the C'ship in 2019. We beat your lads that year but still went out"
It was very tough to miss out on scoring difference in 2019, but we knew going into the final match against Dublin that a draw was needed to guarantee qualification. Dublin beat us fair and square in a must-win game for them and we can have no complaints. That said, I agree that is not good to have a system that encourages the big guns to rack up massive scores against the minnows.

Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 907 - 15/06/2021 17:58:17    2351221

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "Just be glad boy that Cork didn't finish last! Scoring difference is nonsense, when with all due respects to Westmeath and Laois, you have one team boxing well above its weight level. It's like as if you had asked Barry McGuigan back in the day to fight the late great Marvelous Marvin.

Cork put 7 goals past the minnows. Let's see 'em try that against any of the big boys. They'll put manners on those erstwhile rebels."
Scoring goals has not been a problem this year to date against any of the big boys, whoever we have fielded. For years we couldn't score goals and now we are getting them regularly. It's defending high up the field that is our problem at the moment.
Anyway, it's league. None of this will have much baring in a few weeks. If you think anybody will care about the league come championship, you're deluded. I expect a more polished Cork come Championship, not giving the ball away in their own half as often. However same applies for all of the teams. It should make for compelling viewing all championship.

BaldyBadger (Cork) - Posts: 274 - 15/06/2021 21:02:15    2351260

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