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2021 National Hurling League

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In fairness a "possession" game is a tactic it is not aimless, it might be boring, annoying to watch but not all coaches favour this style. The object is obviously too deny the other team the ball and work this ball possession into a score. This can lead to lots of tackling, frees and a stop/start game. There are ways to play against it, but coaches do seem to favour two in at full and three in mid. turning the space between two 45s into WW1 trench warfare. But, whats the point? These are negative tactics, poor to watch, brutal to play in, and is there a point when you can hit a ball 80 yards. Soemtimes I think its like the blind leading the blind where tactics are concerned. Some of these tactics are about as useful as a GPS tracker on a goalkeeper.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4625 - 09/06/2021 18:25:28    2349261

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Replying To BaldyBadger:  "
Replying To zinny:  "[quote=bennybunny:  "[quote=Maroonatic:  "This from a man who has an armful of Celtic crosses link
But then maybe he's a dinosaur too and his opinion can be dismissed"
Exactly. Boring is the word. Anybody that thinks these games are anything but are not being honest. This was typified by Derek McGraths emotional,poetic but ultimately disingenuous answers to Joanne Cantwells.

Also, if anybody who proposes the theory that these free and handpass borefests are more attractive to parents to get their kids playing the game should provide some evidence? I can name dozens of clubs in Cork who now have fewer underage hurling teams than 20 years ago. There are very few (if any) who are now fielding more teams."
You really are stuck in a time warp on what's been happening in all sports over the years and the participation of kids in sport. What is incredible is that you actually must believe what's happening this year has had an impact on it, its laughable. In 2019 lads were saying Hurling was perfect, all that has changed in the meantime is Limerick winning an All Ireland, amazing how its all gone wrong in less than two years."]I think something needs to be done to ensure the game keeps its edge. The 50 score matches are taking away from it. However, I will reserve judgement as this is league. Championship is what it's all winding up to and let's see where we end up.
I would like to see a situation where 100 yd scores are very rare. So a heavier sliotar may work. I would not change the game too much. Look at the mess football had gotten itself into. Changing rules every year and making it worse.
The game is still a good watch. With a small tweak, it could be a great watch again.
I think other changes needed are for teams to change tactically to combat Limerick and Tipp at the moment. I think just dropping men back against them is no good, as Limerick and Tipp are well able to score consistently from half way, if you are going to let them hand pass up the field with a man advantage. They need to be engaged higher up the field with real pressure on the half back line. Make them play from distance to their full forward line and trust your defenders to win more than their share of ball. If you don't trust them, you will not win anyway."]Ironically, I was watching the 2018 All Semi Final between LK and Cork and Cork hand passed the ball almost twice more than Limerick (the tape of the full game is on utube). A few times Cork ran into a five or six point lead during that game and my travelling companion said 'oh! we are gone' but I said No, because Cork are doing so much hand passing they cannot possibly last the seventy five odd minutes the game is going to go on for'. I was proven right. Cork were utterly out on their feet in the last ten minutes. The fact is Kilkenny since the days of Tommy Maher have been doing a fair share of this tactic and at least since the late nineties Cork have gone into an awful lot of it and maybe that is why they are not winning that many All Irelands anymore. AS regards playing long to our full forward line how many points have Mulcahy and Casey, both small men, Gillane and Flanagan scored after being at the receiving end of long sixty or seventy yard passes from the likes of Hannon, Byrnes, O'Donovan or Dan Morrissey. Bring on this game plan I say.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2913 - 09/06/2021 20:46:44    2349278

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Replying To BaldyBadger:  "
Replying To zinny:  "[quote=bennybunny:  "[quote=Maroonatic:  "This from a man who has an armful of Celtic crosses link
But then maybe he's a dinosaur too and his opinion can be dismissed"
Exactly. Boring is the word. Anybody that thinks these games are anything but are not being honest. This was typified by Derek McGraths emotional,poetic but ultimately disingenuous answers to Joanne Cantwells.

Also, if anybody who proposes the theory that these free and handpass borefests are more attractive to parents to get their kids playing the game should provide some evidence? I can name dozens of clubs in Cork who now have fewer underage hurling teams than 20 years ago. There are very few (if any) who are now fielding more teams."
You really are stuck in a time warp on what's been happening in all sports over the years and the participation of kids in sport. What is incredible is that you actually must believe what's happening this year has had an impact on it, its laughable. In 2019 lads were saying Hurling was perfect, all that has changed in the meantime is Limerick winning an All Ireland, amazing how its all gone wrong in less than two years."]I think something needs to be done to ensure the game keeps its edge. The 50 score matches are taking away from it. However, I will reserve judgement as this is league. Championship is what it's all winding up to and let's see where we end up.
I would like to see a situation where 100 yd scores are very rare. So a heavier sliotar may work. I would not change the game too much. Look at the mess football had gotten itself into. Changing rules every year and making it worse.
The game is still a good watch. With a small tweak, it could be a great watch again.
I think other changes needed are for teams to change tactically to combat Limerick and Tipp at the moment. I think just dropping men back against them is no good, as Limerick and Tipp are well able to score consistently from half way, if you are going to let them hand pass up the field with a man advantage. They need to be engaged higher up the field with real pressure on the half back line. Make them play from distance to their full forward line and trust your defenders to win more than their share of ball. If you don't trust them, you will not win anyway."]Ironically, I was watching the 2018 All Semi Final between LK and Cork and Cork hand passed the ball almost twice more than Limerick (the tape of the full game is on utube). A few times Cork ran into a five or six point lead during that game and my travelling companion said 'oh! we are gone' but I said No, because Cork are doing so much hand passing they cannot possibly last the seventy five odd minutes the game is going to go on for'. I was proven right. Cork were utterly out on their feet in the last ten minutes. The fact is Kilkenny since the days of Tommy Maher have been doing a fair share of this tactic and at least since the late nineties Cork have gone into an awful lot of it and maybe that is why they are not winning that many All Irelands anymore. AS regards playing long to our full forward line how many points have Mulcahy and Casey, both small men, Gillane and Flanagan scored after being at the receiving end of long sixty or seventy yard passes from the likes of Hannon, Byrnes, O'Donovan or Dan Morrissey. Bring on this game plan I say.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2913 - 09/06/2021 20:46:57    2349279

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Replying To galwayford:  "Hurling today is a wonderful game. Full of skill and great scores. What rubbish is being posted on this site."
This time I utterly agree with you. In 2018 we had three All Ireland Semi Finals, a ALL Ireland quarter Final and an All Ireland Final as good as any I have seen in my sixty odd years following the game. Considering last years Championship was played in empty stadiums and in the depth of winter, I do think it was that bad at all.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2913 - 09/06/2021 20:53:57    2349281

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Replying To galwayford:  "Hurling today is a wonderful game. Full of skill and great scores. What rubbish is being posted on this site."
This time I utterly agree with you. In 2018 we had three All Ireland Semi Finals, a ALL Ireland quarter Final and an All Ireland Final as good as any I have seen in my sixty odd years following the game. Considering last years Championship was played in empty stadiums and in the depth of winter, I do think it was that bad at all.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2913 - 09/06/2021 20:54:09    2349282

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Replying To ecad123:  "
Replying To zinny:  "[quote=bennybunny:  "[quote=Maroonatic:  "This from a man who has an armful of Celtic crosses link
But then maybe he's a dinosaur too and his opinion can be dismissed"
Exactly. Boring is the word. Anybody that thinks these games are anything but are not being honest. This was typified by Derek McGraths emotional,poetic but ultimately disingenuous answers to Joanne Cantwells.

Also, if anybody who proposes the theory that these free and handpass borefests are more attractive to parents to get their kids playing the game should provide some evidence? I can name dozens of clubs in Cork who now have fewer underage hurling teams than 20 years ago. There are very few (if any) who are now fielding more teams."
You really are stuck in a time warp on what's been happening in all sports over the years and the participation of kids in sport. What is incredible is that you actually must believe what's happening this year has had an impact on it, its laughable. In 2019 lads were saying Hurling was perfect, all that has changed in the meantime is Limerick winning an All Ireland, amazing how its all gone wrong in less than two years."]Yes hurling was great back a few years ago. But that was years ago not now. Hurling has evolved and has not been as exciting last year. I do think it will evolve again but I think we might have to abolish the hand pass. Let's take Limerick for example they will try to bandpass the ball out of defense and will only strike when in the opponents 65. I'm not bashing Limerick but that's what I see happening most of the time the are playing the percentages . I do think the scores are amazing now, as for the frees teams will just have to stop fouling. Galway and Waterford did not have too many scores from frees last weekend."]Just look at the tape of 2018 All Ireland Semi Final- CK v LK, Cork did almost twice as much hand passing and were shagged in the last ten minutes as a result. Why was there no talk of abolishing the hand pass twenty years when Cork won All Irelands and the chief exponents of if.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2913 - 09/06/2021 20:58:27    2349284

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Replying To bennybunny:  "
Replying To Maroonatic:  "This from a man who has an armful of Celtic crosses link
But then maybe he's a dinosaur too and his opinion can be dismissed"
Exactly. Boring is the word. Anybody that thinks these games are anything but are not being honest. This was typified by Derek McGraths emotional,poetic but ultimately disingenuous answers to Joanne Cantwells.

Also, if anybody who proposes the theory that these free and handpass borefests are more attractive to parents to get their kids playing the game should provide some evidence? I can name dozens of clubs in Cork who now have fewer underage hurling teams than 20 years ago. There are very few (if any) who are now fielding more teams."
Benny. The chief reason underage teams on Leeside are not getting members is that Cork have not won an All Ireland Senior Title since 2005, a minor since 2001 and a League or Under 20/21 since '98. This is the problem we in Limerick had for decades. You need outright winners to be heroes and there abscence is why these young people are not interested. Benny, I have nothing against Cork, in fact Father and all belonging to him were Duhallow people, but I have lived in different counties and if the youth have not heroes you are in trouble.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2913 - 09/06/2021 21:05:42    2349287

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Replying To BaldyBadger:  "Thanks Maroonatic. I love some of the usernames on here. Yours is very clever. That was a great goal. I remember many great hurlers down the years from the early 80s on. Cooney, Keady and co were my favourites outside of Cork at the time. A special team.
The iconic pose of hurls overhead is hardly seen now. I heard it said on this thread that mothers may not send their children Hurling if it was more common. The irony is, there were never many serious head injuries in those days and now we have helmets, we see less of this. I think it's more because the sliotar is so rarely dropped into the goal area today."
I actually think, John Fenton's goal against LK in '87 and of course Paul Flynn's cracker against Cork in'04 were superior scores.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2913 - 09/06/2021 21:09:52    2349288

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "
Replying To ecad123:  "[quote=zinny:  "[quote=bennybunny:  "[quote=Maroonatic:  "This from a man who has an armful of Celtic crosses link
But then maybe he's a dinosaur too and his opinion can be dismissed"
Exactly. Boring is the word. Anybody that thinks these games are anything but are not being honest. This was typified by Derek McGraths emotional,poetic but ultimately disingenuous answers to Joanne Cantwells.

Also, if anybody who proposes the theory that these free and handpass borefests are more attractive to parents to get their kids playing the game should provide some evidence? I can name dozens of clubs in Cork who now have fewer underage hurling teams than 20 years ago. There are very few (if any) who are now fielding more teams."
You really are stuck in a time warp on what's been happening in all sports over the years and the participation of kids in sport. What is incredible is that you actually must believe what's happening this year has had an impact on it, its laughable. In 2019 lads were saying Hurling was perfect, all that has changed in the meantime is Limerick winning an All Ireland, amazing how its all gone wrong in less than two years."]Yes hurling was great back a few years ago. But that was years ago not now. Hurling has evolved and has not been as exciting last year. I do think it will evolve again but I think we might have to abolish the hand pass. Let's take Limerick for example they will try to bandpass the ball out of defense and will only strike when in the opponents 65. I'm not bashing Limerick but that's what I see happening most of the time the are playing the percentages . I do think the scores are amazing now, as for the frees teams will just have to stop fouling. Galway and Waterford did not have too many scores from frees last weekend."]Just look at the tape of 2018 All Ireland Semi Final- CK v LK, Cork did almost twice as much hand passing and were shagged in the last ten minutes as a result. Why was there no talk of abolishing the hand pass twenty years when Cork won All Irelands and the chief exponents of if."]Great point Oldtourman. Everyone was raving about how hurling is the game of the gods after the two epic semi-finals on the same weekend in 2018. They were very high-scoring games - Clare 1-30 v Galway 1-30 and Limerick 3-32 v Cork 2-31 - and plenty of those points came from frees, but I don't recall any objections at the time. The game has not changed much since then and I think that at least some of the current complaints are really just begrudgery from people who don't like how this exceptional Limerick team has consistently challenged the traditional dominance of the big 3.

Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 868 - 09/06/2021 22:57:04    2349300

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "
Replying To bennybunny:  "[quote=Maroonatic:  "This from a man who has an armful of Celtic crosses link
But then maybe he's a dinosaur too and his opinion can be dismissed"
Exactly. Boring is the word. Anybody that thinks these games are anything but are not being honest. This was typified by Derek McGraths emotional,poetic but ultimately disingenuous answers to Joanne Cantwells.

Also, if anybody who proposes the theory that these free and handpass borefests are more attractive to parents to get their kids playing the game should provide some evidence? I can name dozens of clubs in Cork who now have fewer underage hurling teams than 20 years ago. There are very few (if any) who are now fielding more teams."
Benny. The chief reason underage teams on Leeside are not getting members is that Cork have not won an All Ireland Senior Title since 2005, a minor since 2001 and a League or Under 20/21 since '98. This is the problem we in Limerick had for decades. You need outright winners to be heroes and there abscence is why these young people are not interested. Benny, I have nothing against Cork, in fact Father and all belonging to him were Duhallow people, but I have lived in different counties and if the youth have not heroes you are in trouble."]That might well be the case - there are many reasons why hurling has declined here. The actions of the county board has not helped. Also when you fall in hurling, you don't fall that far. We have regularly bought 40,000 fans to Croke Park in this time period for semifinals and one final. We have won a good few Munsters (not worth much these days IMO). There are plenty of hurling 'heroes' here so to speak. And with Cul Camps the youngsters have now more access to them.

That was not my point though. The argument put forward was the sanitized game of today is more attractive game for adults to send their kids to play. If you make such an assertion, then you should put forward evidence for it - and also separate that from other variables that cause a change in numbers playing.

I am not having a go at LImerick. It is nothing at all to do with Limerick's style. It is how the game is evolving. I don't like it. I find it boring. I watch as I am watching for decades and it is hard to stop. My son also wants to watch. Like many others and many with far greater gravitas than I (Eoin Larkin, Eddie Brennan) don't like what we see. It is nothing to do with my county or yours or any results.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3815 - 09/06/2021 23:18:56    2349303

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I agree! All of them are way different compared to the 1890s. It was so different back then yet it was also very exciting. Really funny to see how the gaming styles evolved as well.

KaitlynnDuff (Longford) - Posts: 17 - 10/06/2021 02:33:18    2349313

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Replying To bennybunny:  "
Replying To Oldtourman:  "[quote=bennybunny:  "[quote=Maroonatic:  "This from a man who has an armful of Celtic crosses link
But then maybe he's a dinosaur too and his opinion can be dismissed"
Exactly. Boring is the word. Anybody that thinks these games are anything but are not being honest. This was typified by Derek McGraths emotional,poetic but ultimately disingenuous answers to Joanne Cantwells.

Also, if anybody who proposes the theory that these free and handpass borefests are more attractive to parents to get their kids playing the game should provide some evidence? I can name dozens of clubs in Cork who now have fewer underage hurling teams than 20 years ago. There are very few (if any) who are now fielding more teams."
Benny. The chief reason underage teams on Leeside are not getting members is that Cork have not won an All Ireland Senior Title since 2005, a minor since 2001 and a League or Under 20/21 since '98. This is the problem we in Limerick had for decades. You need outright winners to be heroes and there abscence is why these young people are not interested. Benny, I have nothing against Cork, in fact Father and all belonging to him were Duhallow people, but I have lived in different counties and if the youth have not heroes you are in trouble."]That might well be the case - there are many reasons why hurling has declined here. The actions of the county board has not helped. Also when you fall in hurling, you don't fall that far. We have regularly bought 40,000 fans to Croke Park in this time period for semifinals and one final. We have won a good few Munsters (not worth much these days IMO). There are plenty of hurling 'heroes' here so to speak. And with Cul Camps the youngsters have now more access to them.

That was not my point though. The argument put forward was the sanitized game of today is more attractive game for adults to send their kids to play. If you make such an assertion, then you should put forward evidence for it - and also separate that from other variables that cause a change in numbers playing.

I am not having a go at LImerick. It is nothing at all to do with Limerick's style. It is how the game is evolving. I don't like it. I find it boring. I watch as I am watching for decades and it is hard to stop. My son also wants to watch. Like many others and many with far greater gravitas than I (Eoin Larkin, Eddie Brennan) don't like what we see. It is nothing to do with my county or yours or any results."]Wasnt the modern short passing possession game first made successful by the great Cork team of the early noughties? That was before Kilkennys glory years where Brennan and Larkin shone? Also Eddie Brennans Laois team played a similar style they certainly weren't a long ball team. The rules haven't changed that much since that time. Apert from the red card for helmet offences. And this year the directive about the advantage rule. As the game has got more "professional " in outlook so too have "professional fouls" become more commonplace, i.e. diving, so called cuteness or playing on the edge, euphemisms for cynical fouling especially with the free hand, and lads trying to get other lads sent off by clutching or pointing at their helmets after minimal contact. These have put more strain on the officials who are now feeling under pressure to blow up more often. That's why I suggested earlier in this thread, like Brennan and Larkin have done in the press, to permit more contact which a fellow poster from Cork answered with "Jesus wept"! I agree 100% that goals and goal chances are really what gives a game a lift. Action in the penalty areas. I also agree there is alot less of this these days. But the players and managers, the teams, want to win and some have worked out that the best way to do this is score 30 points rather than let the ball inside and maybe score "only" 4 or 6 goals.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 1952 - 10/06/2021 14:19:24    2349376

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There is not that many things wrong with the game. You could name then on one hand. Rucks, throwing the ball, lack of a legal tackle, and simulations. All in my opinion easy to fix if there was a willingness to do. As regards how teams play that will sort itself for better or worse because as soon as the next team is successful with a different style, then all the sheep will go out the same gap.
With regards the ball and hurley and the easiness of scoring now. If you watch baseball and the number of fly balls are caught in the outfield over the game, if they made the ball only an ounce lighter there would be home runs practical every at bat. If the players were allowed to slug their bats the same would happen. If caught at this you get huge suspension. If home runs were hit every at every bat there would be no play. Can you see the similarities ?

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 1337 - 10/06/2021 14:49:29    2349383

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One problem for me is teams using the hand pass out of defense and not striking until the 65 I know it can be effective but very boring. In relation to frees it has happened in the last year that the team that commits the most fouls end up winning the Ireland, it should not pay to foul. All these people calling for the ball to be heavier I can't understand this as it will only lead to flooded defenses and will lead to an increase in fouling out the field as it will make sense to foul since there is no chance of being punished! It should hurt you more if you foul so something like maybe 2 points if you score a blatant free. This could lead to an instant decrease in fouls. I don't know if I am in favour of this but one thing for sure is that a team that comits the most fouls should not win!

ecad123 (Galway) - Posts: 106 - 10/06/2021 15:22:34    2349392

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Replying To Canuck:  "There is not that many things wrong with the game. You could name then on one hand. Rucks, throwing the ball, lack of a legal tackle, and simulations. All in my opinion easy to fix if there was a willingness to do. As regards how teams play that will sort itself for better or worse because as soon as the next team is successful with a different style, then all the sheep will go out the same gap.
With regards the ball and hurley and the easiness of scoring now. If you watch baseball and the number of fly balls are caught in the outfield over the game, if they made the ball only an ounce lighter there would be home runs practical every at bat. If the players were allowed to slug their bats the same would happen. If caught at this you get huge suspension. If home runs were hit every at every bat there would be no play. Can you see the similarities ?"
You are right. MLB actually made the ball heavier this year I think. There was some change made anyway.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 1952 - 10/06/2021 16:28:51    2349407

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Replying To ecad123:  "One problem for me is teams using the hand pass out of defense and not striking until the 65 I know it can be effective but very boring. In relation to frees it has happened in the last year that the team that commits the most fouls end up winning the Ireland, it should not pay to foul. All these people calling for the ball to be heavier I can't understand this as it will only lead to flooded defenses and will lead to an increase in fouling out the field as it will make sense to foul since there is no chance of being punished! It should hurt you more if you foul so something like maybe 2 points if you score a blatant free. This could lead to an instant decrease in fouls. I don't know if I am in favour of this but one thing for sure is that a team that comits the most fouls should not win!"
Your county got a way more frees than Limerick last year and scored most of them and scored from five side line balls and still could not win. Galway also lost to a Kilkenny team that were well beaten by Waterford How do you reckon ye deserved to win more. Galway got all deserved last year. If they win it this year and they might well do we will be first and I hope we wont be whinging like ye.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2913 - 10/06/2021 16:29:50    2349408

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Lads we are all proposing rule changes because most of us dont like some or all of the changes in the way the game is played. We are mostly saying we dont like the way the game is headed. But if we are proposing bringing in new rules arent we the ones proposing changing the way the game actually is from what it was? Not lads like Davy or Kiely or Mcgrath who have come up with new ways of playing the old game with the old rules? With any luck Corks new approach targeting goals turns out to be successful and then as Canuck said earlier the sheep might head out that gap instead.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 1952 - 10/06/2021 16:36:00    2349409

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Your county got a way more frees than Limerick last year and scored most of them and scored from five side line balls and still could not win. Galway also lost to a Kilkenny team that were well beaten by Waterford How do you reckon ye deserved to win more. Galway got all deserved last year. If they win it this year and they might well do we will be first and I hope we wont be whinging like ye."
BTW, when Kilkenny fouled eighteen times to our six in the 2007 All Ireland Final I did not see anyone saying Limerick deserved to win more than the Cats. Nobody said it because it would have been utter bull s***. There we go again one law for the landlords and another for the 'plebs'.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2913 - 10/06/2021 16:38:09    2349410

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Replying To ecad123:  "One problem for me is teams using the hand pass out of defense and not striking until the 65 I know it can be effective but very boring. In relation to frees it has happened in the last year that the team that commits the most fouls end up winning the Ireland, it should not pay to foul. All these people calling for the ball to be heavier I can't understand this as it will only lead to flooded defenses and will lead to an increase in fouling out the field as it will make sense to foul since there is no chance of being punished! It should hurt you more if you foul so something like maybe 2 points if you score a blatant free. This could lead to an instant decrease in fouls. I don't know if I am in favour of this but one thing for sure is that a team that comits the most fouls should not win!"
I have no problem with good passing whether by stick or by hand. Sometimes they're in such a big tight crowds that the only way to pass is via the hand pass.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 1223 - 10/06/2021 16:42:00    2349412

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"Kilkenny have made the first big statement of the 2020 hurling season by ensuring that they will either win, or share, the Division 1 Allianz League title.
Four wins from four games has guaranteed that they will top Group B, irrespective of how they fare against Clare in the final round next weekend."

The above is from an article here on HS - What to expect: plenty of permutations ahead of final HL games link
Kilkenny have not 'made the first big statement', they have beaten: Dublin, Antrim, Wexford and Laois; with Clare their last Group B opponents. Not being disrespectful to the other Group B counties, but this is a weak Group compared to Group A. Which brings me to my other point:

"The top twelve teams compete in Division 1 in two six-team groups of approximately equal strength. This group structure was introduced in 2020 - 2021 National Hurling League " link

What clown(s) decided that a group containing Kilkenny, Clare, Dublin, Antrim, Wexford and Laois, was of equal strength to a group containing Galway, Tipperary, Limerick, Cork, Waterford and Westmeath?

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1344 - 10/06/2021 16:53:11    2349418

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