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Even when it was there, I never once got a red thumb. I make a lot of sense, people think. Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1412 - 17/04/2021 17:44:05 2337549 Link 0 |
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He's from underachieving Galway. Years of promise ... and despair. Cut him a bit of slack. He's tormented I'd say.
Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1412 - 17/04/2021 17:45:22 2337550 Link 0 |
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They're giving disrespect to democracy. Enough of this rubbish about occupation. Wise up. People all over Ireland voted for it twice. Northern Ireland is in the UK.
Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1412 - 17/04/2021 17:47:33 2337551 Link 0 |
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Er, not quite. You may be exaggerating just a little in order to suit your own argument? There was a degree of bemusement, and a lot of amusement and people taking the hand out of Seán - pics of him on DUP posters etc - but nobody had a meltdown. Here was what I said in a blog at the time - judge for yourself whether it constitutes "vile abuse": ------------------- REACTION TO "UK SEÁN" There were a few choice comments on twitter, as you might expect. A well-known teak-tough former Tyrone defender confined himself to remarking "J**** C******!". Mostly, Seán's remark generated that sort of bemusement - and a few predictable visual gags showing Seán on DUP posters : ) REACTION TO THE REACTION As you might also expect, the derisive reaction on twitter prompted a further reaction - the usual middle-class Southern finger-waving directed at those "intolerant Nordies": "A United Ireland, which so many of Cavanagh's detractors so clearly desire, will require rational conversation, listening to opposite opinions, and most importantly; compromise. That feels very far away after the reaction to Sunday's comments." [Rob O'Hanrahan, on Sports Joe.] HOW THE MIDDLE-CLASS COMMENTARIAT GET IT WRONG (AS USUAL) I've no doubt that Rob O'Hanrahan feels he has analysed the episode cogently and is reacting in a reasonable manner. After all, as far as he's aware, he's not a bigot and he's not from up there. Unfortunately, as you'd expect, his reaction betrays his almost-total misunderstanding - both of the incident itself and of the exasperated reaction to it. Rob views this as an instance of intolerance of Unionism by Nationalists. Sigh. Rob is 100% wrong. If, say, Arlene Foster or Gregory Campbell or Sammy Wilson had said "Up here in the UK, ...", nobody would have batted an eyelid. Arlene is a proud and staunch Unionist; and she was applauded to the echo when she attended her first GAA match in 2018. When Maguiresbridge Loyal Orange Lodge were erecting Orange banners recently, first in to assist was the local GAA club who had coincidentally just hired a cherry-picker that same day to take down their local GAA team's bunting. Rob knows nothing about anything like that. He's a young media luvvy lad who lives in Dublin, and he has all the ingrained anti-Northern prejudices of the largely-censored bubble-community that he lives in. If Seán had come out and said that, on reflection, he had had a Damascene principled conversion to Unionism, people would have scratched their heads, but that would have been fine. After all, some of the decisions those Southern referees give against Tyrone might drive any man to re-consider his politics : ) Convert or not, nobody cares about an ordinary down-to-earth decent Unionist being unapologetically Unionist. Seán Cavanagh is a man from a Nationalist background. He's a bright lad, someone who combined getting a first class honours degree and winning a senior All-Ireland in the same year (most people struggle to do one of those) and someone who now combines a thriving Accountancy business and a healthy media career - but he's never struck me as having much interest in politics of any sort. I'd rate him as apolitical. Like many young people from a Nationalist background in 2020, his Nationalism is of the nominal / lapsed / lukewarm variety; and his apathy about politics is across the board - Seán is no newly-zealous convert to Unionism either. He's an ambitious guy and a successful businessman, first and foremost. In other words, Seán's casual use of the "Up here in the UK, ..." phrase is not intended to signify that he's turned into a zealous Unionist. Seán won't be joining Jim Allister's TUV or marching on the 12th any day soon. (Though he might now accept a gong from the Queen, if one was forthcoming.) GOING UP IN THE WORLD No, the key to understanding Seán Cavanagh is not to be found in politics; it's to be found in class. Seán's no Unionist zealot - but he is a social climber. And all that's happening here is that he's letting us know that he's distancing himself a little from the ordinary working class folk that he grew up with. He knows well that a brickie or a farmer in a pub in The Moy is extremely unlikely to describe himself as living "up here in the UK". I've seen this phenomenon play out socially on numerous occasions down the years; and it's always blokes from ordinary Nationalist backgrounds who've done well for themselves. I've met dozens of them, in Belfast and in London. IF YOU'RE IRISH, HOW DO YOU MOVE UP THE LADDER? People in Ireland generally lack a variety of role models for social climbing. Culturally, Ireland (North and South) is very dominated by Britain; and the aspirant Irish middle-class is culturally ignorant of how (e.g.) old-money Spanish, Italians, Japanese or French comport themselves. And there are no middle-class role models among the working class and lower middle-class community from which they came. How then do you get up another rung on that gilded ladder; and how do you signal that publicly? If you're an Irish person on the climb, where are your role models? Whom do you copy? It's not just Irish people who do this. When Madonna made a few bob, she bought a country manor in England and started horse riding and aping the manners of the English aristocracy. (Compare that with Rod Stewart, an English working class lad who, when he made it big, treated himself to - guess what - a new soccer pitch in his back yard! Basically, what he'd have wanted when he was a kid. He just gave himself a bigger, better back yard to play footy in : ) Those choices reveal character. Rod is loaded, but he's still a decent down-to-earth bloke who's not forgotten his roots; whereas Madonna is a snob. It wasn't horses and country manors Madonna Ciccone was dreaming of, growing up in Michigan.) HERE'S WHAT YOU DO The most accessible plug-n-play social templates for a social-climbing Irishman are all British; or, rather, all English. The UK has layer upon layer upon layer of social class and more easily-understood social signifiers than you could shake an un-tainted barge pole at. You can, for instance, buy a Range Rover. You're obviously still Irish; but you're sending out a small middle-class British signal (whether you're aware of it, or not). Subconsciously referencing Buckingham Palace, you can put a big pair of wrought-iron gates at the end of your driveway. (Aesthetically, they look pretentious and they jar with your standard bungalow, but hey you've spent the money). Like Wogan or Geldof, you might accept an MBE ("Member of the Order of the British Empire") or an OBE ("Officer of the Order of the British Empire") from the Queen. (You're not really all that keen on commemorating the bloodthirsty excesses of Empire of course, but that doesn't matter nowadays, it's just a name, and anyway, it's pretty classy, a nice day out - and none of you begrudgers got one, so there!) Or you can cut the peasant slop out of your accent - harden those consonants, shorten those vowels; become a little bit pointy-mouthed. (As a student, I interned briefly with a bumptious social climber in Belfast, a bloke called Paddy from a Nationalist background who was head partner in a thriving law firm. Only he always answered the phone as "Peddy"; and he had this nose-in-the-air way of not looking at you when he asked you to do something.) Or you can realise that you've outgrown all that tiresome, overly-earnest Nationalist stuff and quietly get very comfortable with being in the "big, go-ahead UK". After all, you're a big man of money and business affairs now, able to meet the old ruling class on their own terms, and frankly, when you think about it, you're a little bit above all that dead-end peasant united-Ireland Romanticism now. Singing corny ballads in pubs when there are deals to be cut. Those boys are going nowhere. There's not much money in that carry-on. Some Nationalist middle class think that. TRIBUTE TO A GREAT BALL PLAYER Seán Cavanagh was as good an attacking midfielder as I've ever seen; and his exhibition against the Dubs in the rain in 2008, when he cut swathes through the Dublin rearguard at will, will live long in my memory. I've seen anguished club defences doing their best to keep him at bay; and he just shrugged and popped them over from 60 yards, making dirt of their defensive efforts. Ultimately, I don't give a rap how Seán describes himself; he'll always be a sporting hero of mine. If only Seán was a newly-minted conviction-Unionist. Then we would have a better chance of stealing some Rugby lads for the Tyrone team in our task of somehow getting the all-conquering Dubs in our cross-hairs once again. But he's not. All that's happened is that, sadly, Seán may be starting to climb the social ladder. And Rob, comfortably glued to the saddle of his moral high horse, trotting happily around in his bubble, will never realise that much of the derision and disappointment directed at Seán has nothing at all to do with Unionism - and everything to do with the suspicion that Seán now thinks he's a wee bit better than the rest of us. And, you know what, he may well be - but we just wish you'd grow up and come back down to earth, big lad. essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 17/04/2021 18:00:16 2337553 Link 3 |
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Just to clarify something, recent census show that for the first time ever there is a Catholic majority in NI, so why that does not translate into a majority vote for a United Ireland. mhunicean_abu (Monaghan) - Posts: 1044 - 17/04/2021 18:02:08 2337554 Link 3 |
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" I believe we're a million miles away from ever seeing kids on the Shankill road ever wanting to be part of any "GAA Community" Somewhat over-stated. You perhaps aren't aware that, for instance, Loyalist East Belfast has set up East Belfast's first Irish-medium integrated nursery school, Naíscoil Na Seolta. It's planning to open its doors in September 2021, for children of pre pre-school age (kids born between 2nd July 2018 and 1st July 2019, who will be starting primary one in 2023). Plans for an integrated Irish-medium primary school in East Belfast are also underway. This was started by Linda Ervine, wife of the late David Ervine, himself a staunch Loyalist, and a decent, fair-minded man. If I was to predict, I won't see much change happening for a long time, and, if it does, it's more likely to be a dual sovereignty confederation set up, akin to the Swiss model. essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 17/04/2021 18:08:00 2337555 Link 1 |
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Arlene, is that you?
Donaldtrump (Galway) - Posts: 252 - 17/04/2021 18:08:13 2337556 Link 3 |
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See you can't have reasonable discussions. When don't knows are excluded it is 56% which as I said is near 60%. I hate to burst ur bubble but only 42% said they wanted a ui. Bury ur head in the sand all u want. As was said by a poster afterwards. There is a small but growing number of people who don't view themselves as either Irish or British but as northern Irish. You may not like that and will probably refer to them as castle Catholics. But hey what you gonna do ?? royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 17/04/2021 18:31:48 2337557 Link 0 |
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This I agree with. I believe the gaa should lead the way in in reaching out. The east Belfast club (think that's where it is ) is a prime example. The gaa should not and never should be again a vehicle for division in our country.
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 17/04/2021 18:34:21 2337559 Link 0 |
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So that's what is annoying you? The GAA can use whatever language they like as long as it is clear and understandable. If even the likes of yourself understood them then I think they're doing OK. Some people don't use the term Northern Ireland, some do. Get over yourself. MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 17/04/2021 18:48:58 2337561 Link 14 |
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HOW THE MIDDLE-CLASS COMMENTARIAT GET IT WRONG (AS USUAL) I've no doubt that Rob O'Hanrahan feels he has analysed the episode cogently and is reacting in a reasonable manner. After all, as far as he's aware, he's not a bigot and he's not from up there. Unfortunately, as you'd expect, his reaction betrays his almost-total misunderstanding - both of the incident itself and of the exasperated reaction to it. Rob views this as an instance of intolerance of Unionism by Nationalists. Sigh. Rob is 100% wrong. If, say, Arlene Foster or Gregory Campbell or Sammy Wilson had said "Up here in the UK, ...", nobody would have batted an eyelid. Arlene is a proud and staunch Unionist; and she was applauded to the echo when she attended her first GAA match in 2018. When Maguiresbridge Loyal Orange Lodge were erecting Orange banners recently, first in to assist was the local GAA club who had coincidentally just hired a cherry-picker that same day to take down their local GAA team's bunting. Rob knows nothing about anything like that. He's a young media luvvy lad who lives in Dublin, and he has all the ingrained anti-Northern prejudices of the largely-censored bubble-community that he lives in. If Seán had come out and said that, on reflection, he had had a Damascene principled conversion to Unionism, people would have scratched their heads, but that would have been fine. After all, some of the decisions those Southern referees give against Tyrone might drive any man to re-consider his politics : ) Convert or not, nobody cares about an ordinary down-to-earth decent Unionist being unapologetically Unionist. Seán Cavanagh is a man from a Nationalist background. He's a bright lad, someone who combined getting a first class honours degree and winning a senior All-Ireland in the same year (most people struggle to do one of those) and someone who now combines a thriving Accountancy business and a healthy media career - but he's never struck me as having much interest in politics of any sort. I'd rate him as apolitical. Like many young people from a Nationalist background in 2020, his Nationalism is of the nominal / lapsed / lukewarm variety; and his apathy about politics is across the board - Seán is no newly-zealous convert to Unionism either. He's an ambitious guy and a successful businessman, first and foremost. In other words, Seán's casual use of the "Up here in the UK, ..." phrase is not intended to signify that he's turned into a zealous Unionist. Seán won't be joining Jim Allister's TUV or marching on the 12th any day soon. (Though he might now accept a gong from the Queen, if one was forthcoming.) GOING UP IN THE WORLD No, the key to understanding Seán Cavanagh is not to be found in politics; it's to be found in class. Seán's no Unionist zealot - but he is a social climber. And all that's happening here is that he's letting us know that he's distancing himself a little from the ordinary working class folk that he grew up with. He knows well that a brickie or a farmer in a pub in The Moy is extremely unlikely to describe himself as living "up here in the UK". I've seen this phenomenon play out socially on numerous occasions down the years; and it's always blokes from ordinary Nationalist backgrounds who've done well for themselves. I've met dozens of them, in Belfast and in London. IF YOU'RE IRISH, HOW DO YOU MOVE UP THE LADDER? People in Ireland generally lack a variety of role models for social climbing. Culturally, Ireland (North and South) is very dominated by Britain; and the aspirant Irish middle-class is culturally ignorant of how (e.g.) old-money Spanish, Italians, Japanese or French comport themselves. And there are no middle-class role models among the working class and lower middle-class community from which they came. How then do you get up another rung on that gilded ladder; and how do you signal that publicly? If you're an Irish person on the climb, where are your role models? Whom do you copy? It's not just Irish people who do this. When Madonna made a few bob, she bought a country manor in England and started horse riding and aping the manners of the English aristocracy. (Compare that with Rod Stewart, an English working class lad who, when he made it big, treated himself to - guess what - a new soccer pitch in his back yard! Basically, what he'd have wanted when he was a kid. He just gave himself a bigger, better back yard to play footy in : ) Those choices reveal character. Rod is loaded, but he's still a decent down-to-earth bloke who's not forgotten his roots; whereas Madonna is a snob. It wasn't horses and country manors Madonna Ciccone was dreaming of, growing up in Michigan.) HERE'S WHAT YOU DO The most accessible plug-n-play social templates for a social-climbing Irishman are all British; or, rather, all English. The UK has layer upon layer upon layer of social class and more easily-understood social signifiers than you could shake an un-tainted barge pole at. You can, for instance, buy a Range Rover. You're obviously still Irish; but you're sending out a small middle-class British signal (whether you're aware of it, or not). Subconsciously referencing Buckingham Palace, you can put a big pair of wrought-iron gates at the end of your driveway. (Aesthetically, they look pretentious and they jar with your standard bungalow, but hey you've spent the money). Like Wogan or Geldof, you might accept an MBE ("Member of the Order of the British Empire") or an OBE ("Officer of the Order of the British Empire") from the Queen. (You're not really all that keen on commemorating the bloodthirsty excesses of Empire of course, but that doesn't matter nowadays, it's just a name, and anyway, it's pretty classy, a nice day out - and none of you begrudgers got one, so there!) Or you can cut the peasant slop out of your accent - harden those consonants, shorten those vowels; become a little bit pointy-mouthed. (As a student, I interned briefly with a bumptious social climber in Belfast, a bloke called Paddy from a Nationalist background who was head partner in a thriving law firm. Only he always answered the phone as "Peddy"; and he had this nose-in-the-air way of not looking at you when he asked you to do something.) Or you can realise that you've outgrown all that tiresome, overly-earnest Nationalist stuff and quietly get very comfortable with being in the "big, go-ahead UK". After all, you're a big man of money and business affairs now, able to meet the old ruling class on their own terms, and frankly, when you think about it, you're a little bit above all that dead-end peasant united-Ireland Romanticism now. Singing corny ballads in pubs when there are deals to be cut. Those boys are going nowhere. There's not much money in that carry-on. Some Nationalist middle class think that. TRIBUTE TO A GREAT BALL PLAYER Seán Cavanagh was as good an attacking midfielder as I've ever seen; and his exhibition against the Dubs in the rain in 2008, when he cut swathes through the Dublin rearguard at will, will live long in my memory. I've seen anguished club defences doing their best to keep him at bay; and he just shrugged and popped them over from 60 yards, making dirt of their defensive efforts. Ultimately, I don't give a rap how Seán describes himself; he'll always be a sporting hero of mine. If only Seán was a newly-minted conviction-Unionist. Then we would have a better chance of stealing some Rugby lads for the Tyrone team in our task of somehow getting the all-conquering Dubs in our cross-hairs once again. But he's not. All that's happened is that, sadly, Seán may be starting to climb the social ladder. And Rob, comfortably glued to the saddle of his moral high horse, trotting happily around in his bubble, will never realise that much of the derision and disappointment directed at Seán has nothing at all to do with Unionism - and everything to do with the suspicion that Seán now thinks he's a wee bit better than the rest of us. And, you know what, he may well be - but we just wish you'd grow up and come back down to earth, big lad."]Sorry, could you say that again please. :-). AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 17/04/2021 19:08:03 2337562 Link 0 |
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It's a minefield - here's a quick cheat sheet for non-Nordies: Most people N of the Border have no wish to rub someone from the other community's nose in it during a civil everyday conversation. We all walk a tightrope. You want to be true to yourself; but equally you don't wish to give offence. That is why we all default to shared ground diplomatic descriptors; phrases that avoid either subservience or intolerance. We all have to live together. Here, for the benefit of all outsiders, is a short guide to some of the semantic minefield of Northern discourse. There are many more; but I'll confine myself here to the various ways in which one can describe each of: 1. Derry 2. The North 3. The South 4. Britain - and what each choice instantly reveals about you in a Northern context. DERRY 'Doire' = Republican. 'Derry / Stroke City / Legenderry' = middle-of-the-road Nationalist. 'Derry / Stroke City / Derry-stroke-Londonderry' = middle-of-the-road Unionist. 'Londonderry / London'ry' (leaving out as much of the "Derry" as possible) = Loyalist. THE NORTH 'The 6 Counties / Occupied Ireland / The wee 6 / The colony' = Republican. 'The North / N. Ireland / N.I. (business context)' = middle-of-the-road Nationalist. 'Northern Ireland / N.I. / The North' = middle-of-the-road Unionist. 'Ulster / The Province / The U.K.' = Loyalist. THE SOUTH 'The Free State / The 26 Counties / The Saorstat / Unfinished Business' = Republican. 'The South / South of Ireland / ROI (business context) / Ireland' = middle-of-the-road Nationalist. 'The Republic / ROI (business context)' = middle-of-the-road Unionist. 'Éire / The British Isles' = Loyalist. BRITAIN 'John Bull / England' = Republican. 'England / GB / Britain' = middle-of-the-road Nationalist. 'GB / Britain / U.K.' = middle-of-the-road Unionist. 'The Mainland' = Loyalist. If you choose a Republican name, you will be perceived as seeking to offend Unionists and Loyalists. If you choose a Loyalist name, you will be perceived as seeking to offend Nationalists and Republicans. The point is that there is no need to do that. There are plenty of ways to describe our various places which offend nobody. So when my Unionist colleagues at work speak about "Northern Ireland" in a slightly posh tone of voice ("Ireland" is rendered "Ahland"), they make their point, but no feathers are ruffled. Ditto when I speak about "the North". It would be a different matter if my Unionist friends speak about "the Province"; or if, for instance, I were to speak about "the 6 Counties". We wouldn't fall out over it; but there'd be a reasonable inference of latent, low-level hostility in either instance. essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 17/04/2021 19:09:02 2337563 Link 2 |
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I take it by that statement you weren't at the unveiling of the statue to Kevin Barry in Rathvilly. He'd be turning in his grave. The NORTH of Ireland has enough boys like you in Jim Allister and the like. I thought you'd be watching the funeral instead of replying to posts. Keep taking the mints. From all in the North.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2012 - 17/04/2021 19:12:53 2337565 Link 6 |
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Oh lord help us. What a load of horse manure. There isn't a catholic majority in Northern Ireland. It's a minority and set to stay that way. Protestants are heading for minority as well. Do you not understand that both are under 50%? Do you understand that majority means over 50%? Furthermore do you understand that a census is of everyone whereas for a border poll only 18 year olds and over can vote? Do you understand these simple concepts or are you buying Sinn Fein nonsense propaganda where, to save fave with their electorate, they big up the public calls for a border poll but in fact don't want one at all (surely you can see that) because they know it's 20 years too early and a vote now or in the near future (of over 18's) will be soundly beaten. Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1412 - 17/04/2021 19:14:04 2337566 Link 0 |
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Ahh come on now Abu! What has Whitehall Colmcille got to do with this? Just because it's John Costellos club and the young lad! There's no need for dat now!
Onion_Sack (Dublin) - Posts: 203 - 17/04/2021 19:15:07 2337567 Link 0 |
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100% agree. Which is why the GAA need to start showing some leadership and start calling Northern Ireland and stop the nonsense they continue to go with. If that offends the sensitivities of the back woods men .... we'll that wouldn't be any harm. Leave them there fighting the battles of the past in their small minds.
Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1412 - 17/04/2021 19:19:20 2337568 Link 0 |
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Complex issues often require elaborate solutions - what's your simple solution for NI ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2581 - 17/04/2021 19:41:51 2337570 Link 3 |
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I think we were beyond reasonable discussion when you took issue with some of the struggles the St Endas club members had to endure (being murdered) during the height of the troubles for daring to play gaelic football/hurling. Some of your views are toxic and beyond any sort of moderate empathetic view for a supposed Irishman. Your decision, not mine. As for voting, whatever will be will be, I can live with whatever decision we get. I gave you the breakdown of your version of the 60% which wasn't what you claimed it to be. The 11% still have to vote one way or the other. Loyalist intimidation of immigrants, who have a vote too, or anybody that has a different view to them won't help their cause in the long run though. Like I said earlier, I have many friends from a unionist background who I respect for their views on the union and id happily share a peaceful future with them whatever the decision. But if it goes the other way, calling the likes of yourself a fellow countryman is a lot less inspiring. SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 17/04/2021 19:42:54 2337571 Link 7 |
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essmac, AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 17/04/2021 19:43:15 2337572 Link 0 |
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Ah dear, that's a real disappointment. I thought we had a great understanding. I hate when people say 'tomayto' instead of 'tomato' too.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 17/04/2021 19:48:25 2337573 Link 1 |