National Forum

The GAA And "Northern Ireland"

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Even when it was there, I never once got a red thumb. I make a lot of sense, people think.

Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1305 - 17/04/2021 17:44:05    2337549

Link

Replying To AfricanGael:  "You clearly never marked John Galvin or Brendan Murphy I see, two of the finest that ever played the game. John is a Limerick man and Brendan is from Carlow by the way. I thought everyone who claims to know about football would have known that."
He's from underachieving Galway. Years of promise ... and despair. Cut him a bit of slack. He's tormented I'd say.

Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1305 - 17/04/2021 17:45:22    2337550

Link

Replying To DUALSUPPORT:  "Ireland is a 32 county Island, Ulster has 9 counties and the GAA has its traditions and roots in the struggle for Irish freedom and independence. While 6 counties in Ulster are governed or occupied(whatever you're having yourself) by another jurisdiction, maybe the GAA are just giving respect to GAA members and volunteers from those counties, that there is no border in our games and association."
They're giving disrespect to democracy. Enough of this rubbish about occupation. Wise up. People all over Ireland voted for it twice. Northern Ireland is in the UK.

Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1305 - 17/04/2021 17:47:33    2337551

Link

Replying To AfricanGael:  "Last year when Sean Cavanagh said "Certainly, up here in the UK" when referring to Tyrone and presumably the other five counties, many in the GAA community nearly went into complete and utter meltdown, and directed vile abuse towards him while hiding behind their laptops. Sean clearly recognises the fact that there are 6 counties who participate in the "All-Ireland" which are part of the UK. The Dublin government & the GAA have about as much a legal claim or right to rename New York & London, as they do on Tyrone or any other part of the UK.

It's inevitable that a "border poll", will happen in the future, and whatever the outcome there will be one large minority, but I believe we're a million miles away from ever seeing kids on the Shankill road ever wanting to be part of any "GAA Community" or have anything to do with a Dublin government. Bernard Brogan could be a fiddle player from Clare for all they know or care. The six counties are nothing but a problem child for the British government and they can't wait to hand over the brat to Dublin, should that ever happen, that's when the proverbial will really hit the fan."
Er, not quite. You may be exaggerating just a little in order to suit your own argument? There was a degree of bemusement, and a lot of amusement and people taking the hand out of Seán - pics of him on DUP posters etc - but nobody had a meltdown. Here was what I said in a blog at the time - judge for yourself whether it constitutes "vile abuse":

-------------------

REACTION TO "UK SEÁN"
There were a few choice comments on twitter, as you might expect. A well-known teak-tough former Tyrone defender confined himself to remarking "J**** C******!". Mostly, Seán's remark generated that sort of bemusement - and a few predictable visual gags showing Seán on DUP posters : )

REACTION TO THE REACTION
As you might also expect, the derisive reaction on twitter prompted a further reaction - the usual middle-class Southern finger-waving directed at those "intolerant Nordies":

"A United Ireland, which so many of Cavanagh's detractors so clearly desire, will require rational conversation, listening to opposite opinions, and most importantly; compromise. That feels very far away after the reaction to Sunday's comments." [Rob O'Hanrahan, on Sports Joe.]

HOW THE MIDDLE-CLASS COMMENTARIAT GET IT WRONG (AS USUAL)
I've no doubt that Rob O'Hanrahan feels he has analysed the episode cogently and is reacting in a reasonable manner. After all, as far as he's aware, he's not a bigot and he's not from up there. Unfortunately, as you'd expect, his reaction betrays his almost-total misunderstanding - both of the incident itself and of the exasperated reaction to it. Rob views this as an instance of intolerance of Unionism by Nationalists.

Sigh. Rob is 100% wrong.

If, say, Arlene Foster or Gregory Campbell or Sammy Wilson had said "Up here in the UK, ...", nobody would have batted an eyelid. Arlene is a proud and staunch Unionist; and she was applauded to the echo when she attended her first GAA match in 2018. When Maguiresbridge Loyal Orange Lodge were erecting Orange banners recently, first in to assist was the local GAA club who had coincidentally just hired a cherry-picker that same day to take down their local GAA team's bunting.

Rob knows nothing about anything like that. He's a young media luvvy lad who lives in Dublin, and he has all the ingrained anti-Northern prejudices of the largely-censored bubble-community that he lives in.

If Seán had come out and said that, on reflection, he had had a Damascene principled conversion to Unionism, people would have scratched their heads, but that would have been fine. After all, some of the decisions those Southern referees give against Tyrone might drive any man to re-consider his politics : )

Convert or not, nobody cares about an ordinary down-to-earth decent Unionist being unapologetically Unionist.

Seán Cavanagh is a man from a Nationalist background. He's a bright lad, someone who combined getting a first class honours degree and winning a senior All-Ireland in the same year (most people struggle to do one of those) and someone who now combines a thriving Accountancy business and a healthy media career - but he's never struck me as having much interest in politics of any sort. I'd rate him as apolitical. Like many young people from a Nationalist background in 2020, his Nationalism is of the nominal / lapsed / lukewarm variety; and his apathy about politics is across the board - Seán is no newly-zealous convert to Unionism either. He's an ambitious guy and a successful businessman, first and foremost.

In other words, Seán's casual use of the "Up here in the UK, ..." phrase is not intended to signify that he's turned into a zealous Unionist. Seán won't be joining Jim Allister's TUV or marching on the 12th any day soon. (Though he might now accept a gong from the Queen, if one was forthcoming.)

GOING UP IN THE WORLD
No, the key to understanding Seán Cavanagh is not to be found in politics; it's to be found in class.

Seán's no Unionist zealot - but he is a social climber.

And all that's happening here is that he's letting us know that he's distancing himself a little from the ordinary working class folk that he grew up with. He knows well that a brickie or a farmer in a pub in The Moy is extremely unlikely to describe himself as living "up here in the UK".

I've seen this phenomenon play out socially on numerous occasions down the years; and it's always blokes from ordinary Nationalist backgrounds who've done well for themselves. I've met dozens of them, in Belfast and in London.

IF YOU'RE IRISH, HOW DO YOU MOVE UP THE LADDER?
People in Ireland generally lack a variety of role models for social climbing. Culturally, Ireland (North and South) is very dominated by Britain; and the aspirant Irish middle-class is culturally ignorant of how (e.g.) old-money Spanish, Italians, Japanese or French comport themselves. And there are no middle-class role models among the working class and lower middle-class community from which they came.

How then do you get up another rung on that gilded ladder; and how do you signal that publicly? If you're an Irish person on the climb, where are your role models? Whom do you copy?

It's not just Irish people who do this. When Madonna made a few bob, she bought a country manor in England and started horse riding and aping the manners of the English aristocracy. (Compare that with Rod Stewart, an English working class lad who, when he made it big, treated himself to - guess what - a new soccer pitch in his back yard! Basically, what he'd have wanted when he was a kid. He just gave himself a bigger, better back yard to play footy in : ) Those choices reveal character. Rod is loaded, but he's still a decent down-to-earth bloke who's not forgotten his roots; whereas Madonna is a snob. It wasn't horses and country manors Madonna Ciccone was dreaming of, growing up in Michigan.)

HERE'S WHAT YOU DO
The most accessible plug-n-play social templates for a social-climbing Irishman are all British; or, rather, all English. The UK has layer upon layer upon layer of social class and more easily-understood social signifiers than you could shake an un-tainted barge pole at.

You can, for instance, buy a Range Rover. You're obviously still Irish; but you're sending out a small middle-class British signal (whether you're aware of it, or not). Subconsciously referencing Buckingham Palace, you can put a big pair of wrought-iron gates at the end of your driveway. (Aesthetically, they look pretentious and they jar with your standard bungalow, but hey you've spent the money). Like Wogan or Geldof, you might accept an MBE ("Member of the Order of the British Empire") or an OBE ("Officer of the Order of the British Empire") from the Queen. (You're not really all that keen on commemorating the bloodthirsty excesses of Empire of course, but that doesn't matter nowadays, it's just a name, and anyway, it's pretty classy, a nice day out - and none of you begrudgers got one, so there!) Or you can cut the peasant slop out of your accent - harden those consonants, shorten those vowels; become a little bit pointy-mouthed. (As a student, I interned briefly with a bumptious social climber in Belfast, a bloke called Paddy from a Nationalist background who was head partner in a thriving law firm. Only he always answered the phone as "Peddy"; and he had this nose-in-the-air way of not looking at you when he asked you to do something.) Or you can realise that you've outgrown all that tiresome, overly-earnest Nationalist stuff and quietly get very comfortable with being in the "big, go-ahead UK". After all, you're a big man of money and business affairs now, able to meet the old ruling class on their own terms, and frankly, when you think about it, you're a little bit above all that dead-end peasant united-Ireland Romanticism now. Singing corny ballads in pubs when there are deals to be cut. Those boys are going nowhere. There's not much money in that carry-on. Some Nationalist middle class think that.

TRIBUTE TO A GREAT BALL PLAYER
Seán Cavanagh was as good an attacking midfielder as I've ever seen; and his exhibition against the Dubs in the rain in 2008, when he cut swathes through the Dublin rearguard at will, will live long in my memory. I've seen anguished club defences doing their best to keep him at bay; and he just shrugged and popped them over from 60 yards, making dirt of their defensive efforts. Ultimately, I don't give a rap how Seán describes himself; he'll always be a sporting hero of mine.

If only Seán was a newly-minted conviction-Unionist. Then we would have a better chance of stealing some Rugby lads for the Tyrone team in our task of somehow getting the all-conquering Dubs in our cross-hairs once again.

But he's not. All that's happened is that, sadly, Seán may be starting to climb the social ladder. And Rob, comfortably glued to the saddle of his moral high horse, trotting happily around in his bubble, will never realise that much of the derision and disappointment directed at Seán has nothing at all to do with Unionism - and everything to do with the suspicion that Seán now thinks he's a wee bit better than the rest of us. And, you know what, he may well be - but we just wish you'd grow up and come back down to earth, big lad.

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 945 - 17/04/2021 18:00:16    2337553

Link

Just to clarify something, recent census show that for the first time ever there is a Catholic majority in NI, so why that does not translate into a majority vote for a United Ireland.
The reason for this is the current demographic make up, specifically regarding age. The voting age is 18 plus. The demographic above that age is reflected in the current voting patterns. There is a higher proportion of protestants in the older age groups. The problem for all Unionists and West Brits is that it is inevitable that the demographic changes with time as the older people die and the younger people reach voting age, which will inevitably lead to a majority voting for United Ireland.
We can either Bury our heads in the sand or deal with it like adults and prepare for the inevitable. This reality is the main reason why we see the riots of recent times, effectively a warning, except nobody has the guts to call it out for what it is.

Don't drag the GAA into the political mess created in Whitehall

mhunicean_abu (Monaghan) - Posts: 897 - 17/04/2021 18:02:08    2337554

Link

Replying To AfricanGael:  "Last year when Sean Cavanagh said "Certainly, up here in the UK" when referring to Tyrone and presumably the other five counties, many in the GAA community nearly went into complete and utter meltdown, and directed vile abuse towards him while hiding behind their laptops. Sean clearly recognises the fact that there are 6 counties who participate in the "All-Ireland" which are part of the UK. The Dublin government & the GAA have about as much a legal claim or right to rename New York & London, as they do on Tyrone or any other part of the UK.

It's inevitable that a "border poll", will happen in the future, and whatever the outcome there will be one large minority, but I believe we're a million miles away from ever seeing kids on the Shankill road ever wanting to be part of any "GAA Community" or have anything to do with a Dublin government. Bernard Brogan could be a fiddle player from Clare for all they know or care. The six counties are nothing but a problem child for the British government and they can't wait to hand over the brat to Dublin, should that ever happen, that's when the proverbial will really hit the fan."
" I believe we're a million miles away from ever seeing kids on the Shankill road ever wanting to be part of any "GAA Community"

Somewhat over-stated.

You perhaps aren't aware that, for instance, Loyalist East Belfast has set up East Belfast's first Irish-medium integrated nursery school, Naíscoil Na Seolta. It's planning to open its doors in September 2021, for children of pre pre-school age (kids born between 2nd July 2018 and 1st July 2019, who will be starting primary one in 2023). Plans for an integrated Irish-medium primary school in East Belfast are also underway.

This was started by Linda Ervine, wife of the late David Ervine, himself a staunch Loyalist, and a decent, fair-minded man.

If I was to predict, I won't see much change happening for a long time, and, if it does, it's more likely to be a dual sovereignty confederation set up, akin to the Swiss model.

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 945 - 17/04/2021 18:08:00    2337555

Link

Replying To Onion Breath:  "Why are the GAA seemingly unable to issue a statement that includes the words "Northern Ireland" and thereby reflecting the democratic view of people across the entire island to recognise the existence of the state of Northern Ireland?

It was democratically recognised when the Treaty was democratically approved in 1921 and again when the Good Friday Agreement was voted on in 1998. Still the GAA, like the IRA, continue to act as if they refuse to recognise the state of Northern Ireland. They're happy enough to recognise the state when it comes accepting government grants.

Their linguistic gymnastics designed to avoid saying Northern Ireland are tiresome and irritating at this stage. Enough of "the North"."
Arlene, is that you?

Donaldtrump (Galway) - Posts: 169 - 17/04/2021 18:08:13    2337556

Link

Replying To SaffronDon:  "Firstly, 46% isn't 60%. That would make a big difference. Secondly, around 11% are undecided. Which means when push comes to shove they will vote one way or the other which could still fall either way, so your dream isn't quite there yet.

Frankly, from a personal perspective I have a lot more in common with many unionists in the North who know right from wrong about the past than I do with many free state partitionists, who a bit like the Loyalists, enjoy the freedom they used to command and don't want to let anybody else have the same privileges as them. It certainly isn't without grey areas I'll give you that."
See you can't have reasonable discussions.
When don't knows are excluded it is 56% which as I said is near 60%. I hate to burst ur bubble but only 42% said they wanted a ui.
Bury ur head in the sand all u want. As was said by a poster afterwards. There is a small but growing number of people who don't view themselves as either Irish or British but as northern Irish. You may not like that and will probably refer to them as castle Catholics. But hey what you gonna do ??

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17609 - 17/04/2021 18:31:48    2337557

Link

Replying To DUALSUPPORT:  "Ireland is a 32 county Island, Ulster has 9 counties and the GAA has its traditions and roots in the struggle for Irish freedom and independence. While 6 counties in Ulster are governed or occupied(whatever you're having yourself) by another jurisdiction, maybe the GAA are just giving respect to GAA members and volunteers from those counties, that there is no border in our games and association."
This I agree with. I believe the gaa should lead the way in in reaching out. The east Belfast club (think that's where it is ) is a prime example. The gaa should not and never should be again a vehicle for division in our country.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17609 - 17/04/2021 18:34:21    2337559

Link

Replying To Onion Breath:  "You don't know what you're talking about. The GAA is issuing statements referring very specifically about matters concerning Covid in Northern Ireland, not Ulster."
So that's what is annoying you?

The GAA can use whatever language they like as long as it is clear and understandable.

If even the likes of yourself understood them then I think they're doing OK.

Some people don't use the term Northern Ireland, some do. Get over yourself.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13318 - 17/04/2021 18:48:58    2337561

Link

Replying To essmac:  "
Replying To AfricanGael:  "Last year when Sean Cavanagh said "Certainly, up here in the UK" when referring to Tyrone and presumably the other five counties, many in the GAA community nearly went into complete and utter meltdown, and directed vile abuse towards him while hiding behind their laptops. Sean clearly recognises the fact that there are 6 counties who participate in the "All-Ireland" which are part of the UK. The Dublin government & the GAA have about as much a legal claim or right to rename New York & London, as they do on Tyrone or any other part of the UK.

It's inevitable that a "border poll", will happen in the future, and whatever the outcome there will be one large minority, but I believe we're a million miles away from ever seeing kids on the Shankill road ever wanting to be part of any "GAA Community" or have anything to do with a Dublin government. Bernard Brogan could be a fiddle player from Clare for all they know or care. The six counties are nothing but a problem child for the British government and they can't wait to hand over the brat to Dublin, should that ever happen, that's when the proverbial will really hit the fan."
Er, not quite. You may be exaggerating just a little in order to suit your own argument? There was a degree of bemusement, and a lot of amusement and people taking the hand out of Seán - pics of him on DUP posters etc - but nobody had a meltdown. Here was what I said in a blog at the time - judge for yourself whether it constitutes "vile abuse":

-------------------

REACTION TO "UK SEÁN"
There were a few choice comments on twitter, as you might expect. A well-known teak-tough former Tyrone defender confined himself to remarking "J**** C******!". Mostly, Seán's remark generated that sort of bemusement - and a few predictable visual gags showing Seán on DUP posters : )

REACTION TO THE REACTION
As you might also expect, the derisive reaction on twitter prompted a further reaction - the usual middle-class Southern finger-waving directed at those "intolerant Nordies":

"A United Ireland, which so many of Cavanagh's detractors so clearly desire, will require rational conversation, listening to opposite opinions, and most importantly; compromise. That feels very far away after the reaction to Sunday's comments." [Rob O'Hanrahan, on Sports Joe.


HOW THE MIDDLE-CLASS COMMENTARIAT GET IT WRONG (AS USUAL)
I've no doubt that Rob O'Hanrahan feels he has analysed the episode cogently and is reacting in a reasonable manner. After all, as far as he's aware, he's not a bigot and he's not from up there. Unfortunately, as you'd expect, his reaction betrays his almost-total misunderstanding - both of the incident itself and of the exasperated reaction to it. Rob views this as an instance of intolerance of Unionism by Nationalists.

Sigh. Rob is 100% wrong.

If, say, Arlene Foster or Gregory Campbell or Sammy Wilson had said "Up here in the UK, ...", nobody would have batted an eyelid. Arlene is a proud and staunch Unionist; and she was applauded to the echo when she attended her first GAA match in 2018. When Maguiresbridge Loyal Orange Lodge were erecting Orange banners recently, first in to assist was the local GAA club who had coincidentally just hired a cherry-picker that same day to take down their local GAA team's bunting.

Rob knows nothing about anything like that. He's a young media luvvy lad who lives in Dublin, and he has all the ingrained anti-Northern prejudices of the largely-censored bubble-community that he lives in.

If Seán had come out and said that, on reflection, he had had a Damascene principled conversion to Unionism, people would have scratched their heads, but that would have been fine. After all, some of the decisions those Southern referees give against Tyrone might drive any man to re-consider his politics : )

Convert or not, nobody cares about an ordinary down-to-earth decent Unionist being unapologetically Unionist.

Seán Cavanagh is a man from a Nationalist background. He's a bright lad, someone who combined getting a first class honours degree and winning a senior All-Ireland in the same year (most people struggle to do one of those) and someone who now combines a thriving Accountancy business and a healthy media career - but he's never struck me as having much interest in politics of any sort. I'd rate him as apolitical. Like many young people from a Nationalist background in 2020, his Nationalism is of the nominal / lapsed / lukewarm variety; and his apathy about politics is across the board - Seán is no newly-zealous convert to Unionism either. He's an ambitious guy and a successful businessman, first and foremost.

In other words, Seán's casual use of the "Up here in the UK, ..." phrase is not intended to signify that he's turned into a zealous Unionist. Seán won't be joining Jim Allister's TUV or marching on the 12th any day soon. (Though he might now accept a gong from the Queen, if one was forthcoming.)

GOING UP IN THE WORLD
No, the key to understanding Seán Cavanagh is not to be found in politics; it's to be found in class.

Seán's no Unionist zealot - but he is a social climber.

And all that's happening here is that he's letting us know that he's distancing himself a little from the ordinary working class folk that he grew up with. He knows well that a brickie or a farmer in a pub in The Moy is extremely unlikely to describe himself as living "up here in the UK".

I've seen this phenomenon play out socially on numerous occasions down the years; and it's always blokes from ordinary Nationalist backgrounds who've done well for themselves. I've met dozens of them, in Belfast and in London.

IF YOU'RE IRISH, HOW DO YOU MOVE UP THE LADDER?
People in Ireland generally lack a variety of role models for social climbing. Culturally, Ireland (North and South) is very dominated by Britain; and the aspirant Irish middle-class is culturally ignorant of how (e.g.) old-money Spanish, Italians, Japanese or French comport themselves. And there are no middle-class role models among the working class and lower middle-class community from which they came.

How then do you get up another rung on that gilded ladder; and how do you signal that publicly? If you're an Irish person on the climb, where are your role models? Whom do you copy?

It's not just Irish people who do this. When Madonna made a few bob, she bought a country manor in England and started horse riding and aping the manners of the English aristocracy. (Compare that with Rod Stewart, an English working class lad who, when he made it big, treated himself to - guess what - a new soccer pitch in his back yard! Basically, what he'd have wanted when he was a kid. He just gave himself a bigger, better back yard to play footy in : ) Those choices reveal character. Rod is loaded, but he's still a decent down-to-earth bloke who's not forgotten his roots; whereas Madonna is a snob. It wasn't horses and country manors Madonna Ciccone was dreaming of, growing up in Michigan.)

HERE'S WHAT YOU DO
The most accessible plug-n-play social templates for a social-climbing Irishman are all British; or, rather, all English. The UK has layer upon layer upon layer of social class and more easily-understood social signifiers than you could shake an un-tainted barge pole at.

You can, for instance, buy a Range Rover. You're obviously still Irish; but you're sending out a small middle-class British signal (whether you're aware of it, or not). Subconsciously referencing Buckingham Palace, you can put a big pair of wrought-iron gates at the end of your driveway. (Aesthetically, they look pretentious and they jar with your standard bungalow, but hey you've spent the money). Like Wogan or Geldof, you might accept an MBE ("Member of the Order of the British Empire") or an OBE ("Officer of the Order of the British Empire") from the Queen. (You're not really all that keen on commemorating the bloodthirsty excesses of Empire of course, but that doesn't matter nowadays, it's just a name, and anyway, it's pretty classy, a nice day out - and none of you begrudgers got one, so there!) Or you can cut the peasant slop out of your accent - harden those consonants, shorten those vowels; become a little bit pointy-mouthed. (As a student, I interned briefly with a bumptious social climber in Belfast, a bloke called Paddy from a Nationalist background who was head partner in a thriving law firm. Only he always answered the phone as "Peddy"; and he had this nose-in-the-air way of not looking at you when he asked you to do something.) Or you can realise that you've outgrown all that tiresome, overly-earnest Nationalist stuff and quietly get very comfortable with being in the "big, go-ahead UK". After all, you're a big man of money and business affairs now, able to meet the old ruling class on their own terms, and frankly, when you think about it, you're a little bit above all that dead-end peasant united-Ireland Romanticism now. Singing corny ballads in pubs when there are deals to be cut. Those boys are going nowhere. There's not much money in that carry-on. Some Nationalist middle class think that.

TRIBUTE TO A GREAT BALL PLAYER
Seán Cavanagh was as good an attacking midfielder as I've ever seen; and his exhibition against the Dubs in the rain in 2008, when he cut swathes through the Dublin rearguard at will, will live long in my memory. I've seen anguished club defences doing their best to keep him at bay; and he just shrugged and popped them over from 60 yards, making dirt of their defensive efforts. Ultimately, I don't give a rap how Seán describes himself; he'll always be a sporting hero of mine.

If only Seán was a newly-minted conviction-Unionist. Then we would have a better chance of stealing some Rugby lads for the Tyrone team in our task of somehow getting the all-conquering Dubs in our cross-hairs once again.

But he's not. All that's happened is that, sadly, Seán may be starting to climb the social ladder. And Rob, comfortably glued to the saddle of his moral high horse, trotting happily around in his bubble, will never realise that much of the derision and disappointment directed at Seán has nothing at all to do with Unionism - and everything to do with the suspicion that Seán now thinks he's a wee bit better than the rest of us. And, you know what, he may well be - but we just wish you'd grow up and come back down to earth, big lad."]Sorry, could you say that again please. :-).

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1552 - 17/04/2021 19:08:03    2337562

Link

Replying To Onion Breath:  "Why are the GAA seemingly unable to issue a statement that includes the words "Northern Ireland" and thereby reflecting the democratic view of people across the entire island to recognise the existence of the state of Northern Ireland?

It was democratically recognised when the Treaty was democratically approved in 1921 and again when the Good Friday Agreement was voted on in 1998. Still the GAA, like the IRA, continue to act as if they refuse to recognise the state of Northern Ireland. They're happy enough to recognise the state when it comes accepting government grants.

Their linguistic gymnastics designed to avoid saying Northern Ireland are tiresome and irritating at this stage. Enough of "the North"."
It's a minefield - here's a quick cheat sheet for non-Nordies:

Most people N of the Border have no wish to rub someone from the other community's nose in it during a civil everyday conversation. We all walk a tightrope. You want to be true to yourself; but equally you don't wish to give offence. That is why we all default to shared ground diplomatic descriptors; phrases that avoid either subservience or intolerance. We all have to live together.

Here, for the benefit of all outsiders, is a short guide to some of the semantic minefield of Northern discourse. There are many more; but I'll confine myself here to the various ways in which one can describe each of:

1. Derry
2. The North
3. The South
4. Britain

- and what each choice instantly reveals about you in a Northern context.

DERRY
'Doire' = Republican. 'Derry / Stroke City / Legenderry' = middle-of-the-road Nationalist. 'Derry / Stroke City / Derry-stroke-Londonderry' = middle-of-the-road Unionist. 'Londonderry / London'ry' (leaving out as much of the "Derry" as possible) = Loyalist.

THE NORTH
'The 6 Counties / Occupied Ireland / The wee 6 / The colony' = Republican. 'The North / N. Ireland / N.I. (business context)' = middle-of-the-road Nationalist. 'Northern Ireland / N.I. / The North' = middle-of-the-road Unionist. 'Ulster / The Province / The U.K.' = Loyalist.

THE SOUTH
'The Free State / The 26 Counties / The Saorstat / Unfinished Business' = Republican. 'The South / South of Ireland / ROI (business context) / Ireland' = middle-of-the-road Nationalist. 'The Republic / ROI (business context)' = middle-of-the-road Unionist. 'Éire / The British Isles' = Loyalist.

BRITAIN
'John Bull / England' = Republican. 'England / GB / Britain' = middle-of-the-road Nationalist. 'GB / Britain / U.K.' = middle-of-the-road Unionist. 'The Mainland' = Loyalist.

If you choose a Republican name, you will be perceived as seeking to offend Unionists and Loyalists. If you choose a Loyalist name, you will be perceived as seeking to offend Nationalists and Republicans. The point is that there is no need to do that. There are plenty of ways to describe our various places which offend nobody.

So when my Unionist colleagues at work speak about "Northern Ireland" in a slightly posh tone of voice ("Ireland" is rendered "Ahland"), they make their point, but no feathers are ruffled. Ditto when I speak about "the North". It would be a different matter if my Unionist friends speak about "the Province"; or if, for instance, I were to speak about "the 6 Counties". We wouldn't fall out over it; but there'd be a reasonable inference of latent, low-level hostility in either instance.

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 945 - 17/04/2021 19:09:02    2337563

Link

Replying To Onion Breath:  "Why are the GAA seemingly unable to issue a statement that includes the words "Northern Ireland" and thereby reflecting the democratic view of people across the entire island to recognise the existence of the state of Northern Ireland?

It was democratically recognised when the Treaty was democratically approved in 1921 and again when the Good Friday Agreement was voted on in 1998. Still the GAA, like the IRA, continue to act as if they refuse to recognise the state of Northern Ireland. They're happy enough to recognise the state when it comes accepting government grants.

Their linguistic gymnastics designed to avoid saying Northern Ireland are tiresome and irritating at this stage. Enough of "the North"."
I take it by that statement you weren't at the unveiling of the statue to Kevin Barry in Rathvilly. He'd be turning in his grave. The NORTH of Ireland has enough boys like you in Jim Allister and the like. I thought you'd be watching the funeral instead of replying to posts. Keep taking the mints. From all in the North.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 650 - 17/04/2021 19:12:53    2337565

Link

Replying To mhunicean_abu:  "Just to clarify something, recent census show that for the first time ever there is a Catholic majority in NI, so why that does not translate into a majority vote for a United Ireland.
The reason for this is the current demographic make up, specifically regarding age. The voting age is 18 plus. The demographic above that age is reflected in the current voting patterns. There is a higher proportion of protestants in the older age groups. The problem for all Unionists and West Brits is that it is inevitable that the demographic changes with time as the older people die and the younger people reach voting age, which will inevitably lead to a majority voting for United Ireland.
We can either Bury our heads in the sand or deal with it like adults and prepare for the inevitable. This reality is the main reason why we see the riots of recent times, effectively a warning, except nobody has the guts to call it out for what it is.

Don't drag the GAA into the political mess created in Whitehall"
Oh lord help us. What a load of horse manure.

There isn't a catholic majority in Northern Ireland. It's a minority and set to stay that way. Protestants are heading for minority as well.

Do you not understand that both are under 50%?

Do you understand that majority means over 50%?

Furthermore do you understand that a census is of everyone whereas for a border poll only 18 year olds and over can vote?

Do you understand these simple concepts or are you buying Sinn Fein nonsense propaganda where, to save fave with their electorate, they big up the public calls for a border poll but in fact don't want one at all (surely you can see that) because they know it's 20 years too early and a vote now or in the near future (of over 18's) will be soundly beaten.

Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1305 - 17/04/2021 19:14:04    2337566

Link

Replying To mhunicean_abu:  "Just to clarify something, recent census show that for the first time ever there is a Catholic majority in NI, so why that does not translate into a majority vote for a United Ireland.
The reason for this is the current demographic make up, specifically regarding age. The voting age is 18 plus. The demographic above that age is reflected in the current voting patterns. There is a higher proportion of protestants in the older age groups. The problem for all Unionists and West Brits is that it is inevitable that the demographic changes with time as the older people die and the younger people reach voting age, which will inevitably lead to a majority voting for United Ireland.
We can either Bury our heads in the sand or deal with it like adults and prepare for the inevitable. This reality is the main reason why we see the riots of recent times, effectively a warning, except nobody has the guts to call it out for what it is.

Don't drag the GAA into the political mess created in Whitehall"
Ahh come on now Abu! What has Whitehall Colmcille got to do with this? Just because it's John Costellos club and the young lad! There's no need for dat now!

Onion_Sack (Dublin) - Posts: 69 - 17/04/2021 19:15:07    2337567

Link

Replying To royaldunne:  "This I agree with. I believe the gaa should lead the way in in reaching out. The east Belfast club (think that's where it is ) is a prime example. The gaa should not and never should be again a vehicle for division in our country."
100% agree. Which is why the GAA need to start showing some leadership and start calling Northern Ireland and stop the nonsense they continue to go with. If that offends the sensitivities of the back woods men .... we'll that wouldn't be any harm. Leave them there fighting the battles of the past in their small minds.

Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1305 - 17/04/2021 19:19:20    2337568

Link

Replying To Onion Breath:  "That's as bizarre a suggestion as any of your pointless complicated championship proposals."
Complex issues often require elaborate solutions - what's your simple solution for NI ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2032 - 17/04/2021 19:41:51    2337570

Link

Replying To royaldunne:  "See you can't have reasonable discussions.
When don't knows are excluded it is 56% which as I said is near 60%. I hate to burst ur bubble but only 42% said they wanted a ui.
Bury ur head in the sand all u want. As was said by a poster afterwards. There is a small but growing number of people who don't view themselves as either Irish or British but as northern Irish. You may not like that and will probably refer to them as castle Catholics. But hey what you gonna do ??"
I think we were beyond reasonable discussion when you took issue with some of the struggles the St Endas club members had to endure (being murdered) during the height of the troubles for daring to play gaelic football/hurling. Some of your views are toxic and beyond any sort of moderate empathetic view for a supposed Irishman. Your decision, not mine.

As for voting, whatever will be will be, I can live with whatever decision we get. I gave you the breakdown of your version of the 60% which wasn't what you claimed it to be. The 11% still have to vote one way or the other. Loyalist intimidation of immigrants, who have a vote too, or anybody that has a different view to them won't help their cause in the long run though. Like I said earlier, I have many friends from a unionist background who I respect for their views on the union and id happily share a peaceful future with them whatever the decision. But if it goes the other way, calling the likes of yourself a fellow countryman is a lot less inspiring.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2225 - 17/04/2021 19:42:54    2337571

Link

essmac,

"It was Cavanagh's use of the words 'up here in the UK' that triggered the criticism. There was, predictably, fevered use of the word Gael among his most fervent attackers, appalled that a GAA man would recognise, in spoken words, the reality of where he lives.

Cultural and historical sensitivities should be recognised, but it requires acutely sensitive ears to detect disrespect in what Cavanagh said.

It was disarming to be reminded, once again, of mind-sets repulsed at the idea that someone could acknowledge Northern Ireland is part of the UK, while still being a part of the GAA.

Given all the blather about inclusivity and maturity and a new Ireland, these petrified attitudes do not speak to a willingness to welcome members of the north's unionist tradition into the most revered of the nationalist traditions.

Bores on Twitter do not speak for the GAA nor the nationalist community, of course, but a controversy such as this one is useful in exposing the ancient prejudices that persist - on both sides of the border.

Whether Cavanagh thinks much about the legal or geographical status of Tyrone is irrelevant, too, but the manner in which he has been pilloried by people who have done little when compared to him for the GAA tradition anywhere on the island, was startling"


If I were to repeat some of the vile abuse Sean received essmac, then it wouldn't pass moderation.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1552 - 17/04/2021 19:43:15    2337572

Link

Replying To Onion Breath:  "The majority of counties in Northern Ireland weren't unionist 23 years ago. Thought you'd know that. I won't waste any more time with someone have the most basic grasp of the state they live in."
Ah dear, that's a real disappointment. I thought we had a great understanding. I hate when people say 'tomayto' instead of 'tomato' too.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2225 - 17/04/2021 19:48:25    2337573

Link